10 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

100%

The Kante vendetta may be the most bizarre thing I've seen in my time on this forum. Best player we have by streets and some are claiming we'd be better off without him in the team. 

Oh yeah let’s just ignore what people are saying and call it a vendetta, it's so much easier to silence the critics that way. 

You got to love it, most people criticising him have been huge fans of his for 4 years, expressed it highly on the forum, and coincidentally when the performances drop fans are picking that out. That's an amazing coincidence don't you think? Nope, it must be a vendetta, I believe those fans have just grown to hate Kante, altogether, out of nothing, it must be a vendetta, it can't be anything else surely? Look at me, I’m smart.

Edited January 5, 20206 yr by Slojo

Kante does not offer more going forward than Kova and Jorginho that's just plain incorrect.

 

He offers more as a box to box but not as an attacking threat, also he's been absolutely woeful since retuning some simply very simple things seems like a struggle it appears he's just not comfortable at the moment and most unbiased fans can see that currently.

 

It's the managers job to see identify and correct this of its rest give him a two week break so he can go see family get some sun sand and see its worked wonders in the past.

 

Zero point in persisting when he's not getting better give him a break.

 

11 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Kante offers more than Jorginho and Kovacic. In all phases of the game pretty much. You are right, Pulisic is a better attacker, he's a winger, Mount is an attacking midfielder, or a winger sometimes so his skill set offensivly is also better but Kante can also pop up in the box and score, last season when Sarri said that Kante can do that he was right about it. Jorginho scores from penalties mostly, Kovacic scores a goal once a year.

He can get into space, has good off ball movement and has a better shot and finish than at least Jorginho and Kovacic, maybe equal with Mount I dare to say...

Last season he proved he can be effective in the final third, this season right after his injury he comes and scored against Man City after a great off ball movement and finish...I didn't see Jorgihno and Kovacic doing everything that Kante can do, but I saw Kante doing 90% of the things that the other two are doing...

This is almost as bad as when you posted a 3-minute montage video of Essien in 2011 to try and prove to me that he was world class after his injury. 

Literally neither of those points you made addressed one of RIPMourinho's. Kante isn't superman, he's a great all-round player who's currently out of form, but players have attributes, and some players have better attributes than others in some areas, even if overall they're not better than that player, crazy right?? Kovacic is a better dribbler than Kante, and Jorginho is more creative than Kante is. Both have better ball retention skills and distribution, so how is posting a youtube montage of Kante scoring 11 goals in 4 seasons prove that point otherwise? 

Kante offers the most going forward but that is also not a good thing and why all 3 shouldnt play together. I dont really care that a player can dribble himself out of trouble or someone who can keep passing, Kova and Jorginho offer nothing in the final third of the game. That's why you drop 1 of the 3 and have 3 attacking players behind the striker.

14 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

No one has all those attributes, but everyone else has one or two. My point is Kante doesn't really have any. 

Pulisic is creative.

Mount can pop up in the box and poke a goal in.

Jorginho is creative.

Kovacic can dribble past players with ease.

What does Kante offer in the attacking phase?

Although I get where you are coming from and I guess you are right that Kante is the best all-rounder without actually having one stand-out strength, I think that is massively under-selling kante. He isn't in the side to score goals and yet is more likely to score than either Kovacic or Jorginho. He has scored some crucial goals for us, and this season netted against the two most difficult opponents - Liverpool and City.

It is a dilemma for Frank and will only become more of one when RLC is available and we possibly make more signings. Kante, Kovacic and Jorginho are three class players but don't appear to fit into the same starting 11. Out of the three, I think only Kante can and has been described as world class and so it is hard to leave him out if he is fit and available.

It really is down to Lamps to manage the situation and apply "horses for courses". As good as Kovacic and Jorginho look as a pairing at times, there are still games where they give the ball away in dangerous areas and offer little of a goal threat so I would never criticise Lamps for not playing the two together for whatever reason. 

56 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Although I get where you are coming from and I guess you are right that Kante is the best all-rounder without actually having one stand-out strength, I think that is massively under-selling kante. He isn't in the side to score goals and yet is more likely to score than either Kovacic or Jorginho. He has scored some crucial goals for us, and this season netted against the two most difficult opponents - Liverpool and City.

It is a dilemma for Frank and will only become more of one when RLC is available and we possibly make more signings. Kante, Kovacic and Jorginho are three class players but don't appear to fit into the same starting 11. Out of the three, I think only Kante can and has been described as world class and so it is hard to leave him out if he is fit and available.

It really is down to Lamps to manage the situation and apply "horses for courses". As good as Kovacic and Jorginho look as a pairing at times, there are still games where they give the ball away in dangerous areas and offer little of a goal threat so I would never criticise Lamps for not playing the two together for whatever reason. 

"At times", we've comfortably won games with that pairing and had our positive period with it.

We've won 6/7 games without Kante, and the one game we didn't win was a draw. You're also underselling the partnership of Kovacic and Jorginho. Picking players on reputation is the argument being made in favour of Kante, in the pivot Kante hasn't performed up to standard here, not outside of the big games anyway. Even in the 2-0 Palace game just after the international break where we had 60%, a complete domination, we picked up where we left off, and Kante was still looking rough and not fully fit. On top of that he scored those goals while playing higher up the pitch in Mounts position, not in the pivot. 

Bottom line, just because he's world class doesn't mean he should be selected when he's clearly out of form and isn't playing well in the position he's being played in the current setup. 

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

"At times", we've comfortably won games with that pairing and had our positive period with it.

We've won 6/7 games without Kante, and the one game we didn't win was a draw. You're also underselling the partnership of Kovacic and Jorginho. Picking players on reputation is the argument being made in favour of Kante, in the pivot Kante hasn't performed up to standard here, not outside of the big games anyway. Even in the 2-0 Palace game just after the international break where we had 60%, a complete domination, we picked up where we left off, and Kante was still looking rough and not fully fit. On top of that he scored those goals while playing higher up the pitch in Mounts position, not in the pivot. 

Bottom line, just because he's world class doesn't mean he should be selected when he's clearly out of form and isn't playing well in the position he's being played in the current setup. 

Yes - I maintain, "at times". Sure we have played some great football and achieved results with the Jorgino / Kovacic pairing and I love it when they play and it goes well. But they also started together United away (0-4), the dreadful West Ham home defeat and even the 2-1 win against Watford, we looked good but it was that pairing that let Watford back in the game with f**king about in our own box and but for Kepa's last gasp save, would have been a 2-2 draw.

Yes, our best football has come when the two of them have started together BUT it isn't always the case so all I am saying is who are we to question Lamps if he sees games where he thinks Kante is the better option.

31 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Yes - I maintain, "at times". Sure we have played some great football and achieved results with the Jorgino / Kovacic pairing and I love it when they play and it goes well. But they also started together United away (0-4), the dreadful West Ham home defeat and even the 2-1 win against Watford, we looked good but it was that pairing that let Watford back in the game with f**king about in our own box and but for Kepa's last gasp save, would have been a 2-2 draw.

Yes, our best football has come when the two of them have started together BUT it isn't always the case so all I am saying is who are we to question Lamps if he sees games where he thinks Kante is the better option.

We absolutely dominated Watford and that was never a penalty in a million years, you can't just pick that out ofit, both of them were fantastic that game. 

29 minutes ago, Slojo said:

We absolutely dominated Watford and that was never a penalty in a million years, you can't just pick that out ofit, both of them were fantastic that game. 

I agree, we played great for the majority of that game and a lot of that was down to Kovacic and Jorginho. And it shoudn't have been a penalty but the fact is, a penalty WAS awarded and that wouldn't have happened if one of them had lamped the ball away rather than try and play clever in our own box. That nearly cost us the game and all the hard work that went before. Lamps probably realises that moments like that are less likely with Kante (although he did nearly mess up v Arsenal!)

That's all I'm highlighting, as good as they CAN be, both of them have also had the odd game or moment that ends up costing us. I also agree that Kante hasn't been at his best but he's still coming back from a series of injuries and it's hard to keep a player of his calibre out. There aren't too many players who  after a game folk make the comment "were there two Kante's on the pitch today".

 

Edited January 5, 20206 yr by Nibs

3 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

Kante offers the most going forward but that is also not a good thing and why all 3 shouldnt play together. I dont really care that a player can dribble himself out of trouble or someone who can keep passing, Kova and Jorginho offer nothing in the final third of the game. That's why you drop 1 of the 3 and have 3 attacking players behind the striker.

At some point Kante was the main goal threat, meaning that at some point he really was doing so much all over the pitch. 

Last season Sarri told everyone that Kante just needs to keep working on the final third phase of his game and last season he actually scored the most goals in a season. That means that he can indeed do a lot of things at the highest level. He scored 4 goals last season as he adapted to the Sarri ball, this season he already has 3 goals half season through even missing games due to injury.

Every evidence points out that Kante can do much in attack and has been doing great all around the pitch, like I pointed out his average in the last 5 games is a 6.9grade.

You are correct, when all 3 are playing together, Kovacic and Jorginho are constantly overriding each other, this is why I praised Lampard when he took out Jorginho (even though I'm a big fan) and put Mount instead.

Every big game this season we won included Kante, it's not that complicated really but some may think that a run of games won against lower teams actually means that our midfield without Kante is better, it's not, and it really wasn't, even in our wins we looked shaky.

4 hours ago, Slojo said:

Oh yeah let’s just ignore what people are saying and call it a vendetta, it's so much easier to silence the critics that way. 

You got to love it, most people criticising him have been huge fans of his for 4 years, expressed it highly on the forum, and coincidentally when the performances drop fans are picking that out. That's an amazing coincidence don't you think? Nope, it must be a vendetta, I believe those fans have just grown to hate Kante, altogether, out of nothing, it must be a vendetta, it can't be anything else surely? Look at me, I’m smart.

Yep, it's complete nonsense. Kante has been one of my favourite players since before he even joined us, people calling it a vendetta or scapegoating are talking complete bullsh*t. Why would we have a vendetta against somebody like Kante? The bloke is the nicest person in football. 

No player is exempt from criticism. No matter how good that player has been in the past or how popular they are, we shouldn't ignore it or brush it off when that player is struggling. 

Edited January 5, 20206 yr by Scott Harris

2 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

Yep, it's complete nonsense. Kante has been one of my favourite players since before he even joined us, people calling it a vendetta or scapegoating are talking complete bullsh*t. Why would we have a vendetta against somebody like Kante? The bloke is nicest person in football. 

No player is exempt from criticism. No matter how good that player has been in the past or how popular they are, we shouldn't ignore it or brush it off when that player is struggling. 

It's a false narrarive that Kante is struggling. To narrow down our results as a team to him somehow not fitting in the team, or being a limited player, is at best, a good example of being sloppy when analysing our team. Facts and stats don't care about your personal driven motives.

42 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

It's a false narrarive that Kante is struggling. To narrow down our results as a team to him somehow not fitting in the team, or being a limited player, is at best, a good example of being sloppy when analysing our team. Facts and stats don't care about your personal driven motives.

It's not a false narrative at all. I don't go by the stats, I go by what I see with my eyes, and what I see is a player that looks nothing like his old self. I'm not even blaming our results entirely on him, no player is 100% at fault for bad results, but I definitely think his performances are having a negative affect on our overall game this season.

Edited January 5, 20206 yr by Scott Harris

I too don't see the supposed loss of form that Kante is meant to be going through. 

1 minute ago, Scott Harris said:

It's not a false narrative at all. I don't go by the stats, I go by what I see with my eyes, and what I see is a player that looks nothing like his old self. 

And yet, at this point after coming back from injuries he has almost the same amount of goals scored as his best scoring season, he has almost 7.0 in his last 5 games...

You know what this reminds me of? 

Last season or so when people were bashing Willian, then someone pointed out that he has always been exactly like this and that the stats he put up are his normal stats from almost all seasons he has been here.

So maybe you wish that Kante does more but this has very little to do with how he has been prior to this season, in fact in seasons before he had more top players around him, now he's mostly depending on young players around him.

13 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

And yet, at this point after coming back from injuries he has almost the same amount of goals scored as his best scoring season, he has almost 7.0 in his last 5 games...

You know what this reminds me of? 

Last season or so when people were bashing Willian, then someone pointed out that he has always been exactly like this and that the stats he put up are his normal stats from almost all seasons he has been here.

So maybe you wish that Kante does more but this has very little to do with how he has been prior to this season, in fact in seasons before he had more top players around him, now he's mostly depending on young players around him.

I'm not even talking about his goals though, you're focusing way too much on that. When it comes to goals from Kante, that is the least of my worries, it's not the part of his game I focus on. Positioning, tackling, 50/50's, defensive work, ball control, passing, decision making, none of this is up to the same standard as it has been in previous seasons. He doesn't seem to be on the same wave length as the rest of the team. He doesn't seem to know when to contain and when to press, he just presses 99% of the time and is leaving gaps in the middle of the pitch. Kante's tackling and pressing in the past was effective, he would never give the opposition a break, he was strong in a tackle, he would win the ball, set us up for another attack and often get involved as an extra man in attack. This season though, he looks so easy to play against, and he doesn't seem to giving any team a tough time.

I didn't think Kante was all that great last season either, but he was better than he has been this season. This season he just looks lost.

Edited January 5, 20206 yr by Scott Harris

If you're comparing the three of them, Kova, Jorginho and Kante, then you shouldn't be looking at the goals because none of them are about that. In fact if you did then Kante would come out on top.

Of the three he is the player best equipped with his pace and energy to be a box to box midfielder. Kovacic is also pretty mobile but can be guilty of overplaying.

My concern with Kante is that the loss of form appears to coincide with the loss of his original primary posiiton.

He is clearly off form at the moment and, in my uneducated opinion, should go back to what he knows best until he rediscovers his form. If that means challenging for a more deeper lying defensive based midfield role with the option of bombing on when he wishes then let's do it.

I find it frustrating, yet totally typical that we can take a world cup winner, and a two time premier league champion and develop him into a worse player. Talk about don't fix it if it aint broke.

32 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

I'm not even talking about his goals though, you're focusing way too much on that. When it comes to goals from Kante, that is the least of my worries, it's not the part of his game I focus on. Positioning, tackling, 50/50's, defensive work, ball control, passing, decision making, none of this is up to the same standard as it has been in previous seasons. He doesn't seem to be on the same wave length as the rest of the team. He doesn't seem to know when to contain and when to press, he just presses 99% of the time and is leaving gaps in the middle of the pitch. Kante's tackling and pressing in the past was effective, he would never give the opposition a break, he was strong in a tackle, he would win the ball, set us up for another attack and often get involved as an extra man in attack. This season though, he looks so easy to play against, and he doesn't seem to giving any team a tough time.

I didn't think Kante was all that great last season either, but he was better than he has been this season. This season he just looks lost.

Well in all fairness, before I even respond to the things you bring up, can we then agree that we shouldn't even talk about his goal contribution or how effective he is in attack?

You need to understand that a page ago, the biggest argument against Kante actually was that he doesn't contribute to our attack and doesn't have much quality in our attacking phase, this is the only reason why I focused on that particularly.

I hope you understand that I didn't have the same starting point in this discussion, I'm happy to know that you don't even focus on the attacking qualities of Kante but bring up some actual observations.

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

I'm not even talking about his goals though, you're focusing way too much on that. When it comes to goals from Kante, that is the least of my worries, it's not the part of his game I focus on. Positioning, tackling, 50/50's, defensive work, ball control, passing, decision making, none of this is up to the same standard as it has been in previous seasons. He doesn't seem to be on the same wave length as the rest of the team. He doesn't seem to know when to contain and when to press, he just presses 99% of the time and is leaving gaps in the middle of the pitch. Kante's tackling and pressing in the past was effective, he would never give the opposition a break, he was strong in a tackle, he would win the ball, set us up for another attack and often get involved as an extra man in attack. This season though, he looks so easy to play against, and he doesn't seem to giving any team a tough time.

I didn't think Kante was all that great last season either, but he was better than he has been this season. This season he just looks lost.

lot of arguments there lets break it down.. but before that some stats -

1.)  Tackling/Pressing is  not at the same level -  this is true on an average he is making much lower number of tackles, interceptions and is also losing more duels than he is winning. But this also coincides with the change in his position from a 2 man midfield in a counter attacking style to a more box to box midfielder in a 3 man midfield under Sarri and Lamps..  5-10 % possession is a lot in football,, and for me the drop in numbers is similar to the situation when you play for a team with a bad defense as a Gk you end up making more saves..  point being now he seems to get deployed much higher up the pitch where the opposition many more options to pass making it difficult to intercept/tackle and most of the time you end up running to apply pressure..  

for his defensive contribution look at the total number of goals that get scored from his side of the pitch ?

2.) Kovacic vs Kante debate - 

Apart from one category under the duels section- Kante despite playing less and coming post multiple injury layoffs is more effective.. from an attacking sense while Kovacic has neat feat.. Kante also offer similar industry by running with the ball especially in counters.. neither has the vision or the technique to really score or assist consistently but Kante does seem to get into very promising positions and emerges more as a threat.

3) Connection with Jorgi and the team

i think not just Kante a lot of the team is learning to play with each other... also Jorginho himself has been poor in a lot of the games giving the ball away.. tryng to many hollywood passes or getting caught out of position.. 5-6 games are just too small a sample set to conclude that Kovacic / jorginho relationship would have given better results.. considering kante was probably the least of our problems in some of these games... 

i think there is clear evidence to suggest that Kante today is not the Kante of 15-17 but that is more down to the managers trying to play him in a different role.. his tackling and understanding with Mount/Pusilic/Tammy will improve as the season goes on and he has more games under his belt.. remember he missed the entire pre-season.. is he top player absolutely.. for now i am happy for him to be a part of our mid 

 

Edited January 5, 20206 yr by Jangz

4 minutes ago, Jangz said:

lot of arguments there lets break it down.. but before that some stats -

1.)  Tackling/Pressing is  not at the same level -  this is true on an average he is making much lower number of tackles, interceptions and is also losing more duels than he is winning. But this also coincides with the change in his position from a 2 man midfield in a counter attacking style to a more box to box midfielder in a 3 man midfield under Sarri and Lamps..  5-10 % possession is a lot in football,, and for me the drop in numbers is similar to the situation when you play for a team with a bad defense as a Gk you end up making more saves..  point being now he seems to get deployed much higher up the pitch where the opposition many more options to pass making it difficult to intercept/tackle and most of the time you end up running to apply pressure..  

for his defensive contribution look at the total number of goals that get scored from his side of the pitch ?

2.) Kovacic vs Kante debate - 

Apart from one category under the duels section- Kante despite playing less and coming post multiple injury layoffs is more effective.. from an attacking sense while Kovacic has neat feat.. Kante also offer similar industry by running with the ball especially in counters.. neither has the vision or the technique to really score or assist consistently but Kante does seem to get into very promising positions and emerges more as a threat.

3) Connection with Jorgi and the team

i think not just Kante a lot of the team is learning to play with each other... also Jorginho himself has been poor in a lot of the games giving the ball away.. tryng to many hollywood passes or getting caught out of position.. 5-6 games are just too small a sample set to conclude that Kovacic / jorginho relationship would have given better results.. considering kante was probably the least of our problems in some of these games... 

i think there is clear evidence to suggest that Kante today is not the Kante of 15-17 but that is more down to the managers trying to play him in a different role.. his tackling and understanding with Mount/Pusilic/Tammy will improve as the season goes on and he has more games under his belt.. remember he missed the entire pre-season.. is he top player absolutely.. for now i am happy for him to be a part of our mid 

What a great post this is, we need more of this quality, this leads to much better discussions and conclusions, thanks for this!

36 minutes ago, Jangz said:

lot of arguments there lets break it down.. but before that some stats -

1.)  Tackling/Pressing is  not at the same level -  this is true on an average he is making much lower number of tackles, interceptions and is also losing more duels than he is winning. But this also coincides with the change in his position from a 2 man midfield in a counter attacking style to a more box to box midfielder in a 3 man midfield under Sarri and Lamps..  5-10 % possession is a lot in football,, and for me the drop in numbers is similar to the situation when you play for a team with a bad defense as a Gk you end up making more saves..  point being now he seems to get deployed much higher up the pitch where the opposition many more options to pass making it difficult to intercept/tackle and most of the time you end up running to apply pressure..  

for his defensive contribution look at the total number of goals that get scored from his side of the pitch ?

2.) Kovacic vs Kante debate - 

Apart from one category under the duels section- Kante despite playing less and coming post multiple injury layoffs is more effective.. from an attacking sense while Kovacic has neat feat.. Kante also offer similar industry by running with the ball especially in counters.. neither has the vision or the technique to really score or assist consistently but Kante does seem to get into very promising positions and emerges more as a threat.

3) Connection with Jorgi and the team

i think not just Kante a lot of the team is learning to play with each other... also Jorginho himself has been poor in a lot of the games giving the ball away.. tryng to many hollywood passes or getting caught out of position.. 5-6 games are just too small a sample set to conclude that Kovacic / jorginho relationship would have given better results.. considering kante was probably the least of our problems in some of these games... 

i think there is clear evidence to suggest that Kante today is not the Kante of 15-17 but that is more down to the managers trying to play him in a different role.. his tackling and understanding with Mount/Pusilic/Tammy will improve as the season goes on and he has more games under his belt.. remember he missed the entire pre-season.. is he top player absolutely.. for now i am happy for him to be a part of our mid 

 

Kovacic has 1331 minutes in the league. Kante has 1124, so that's like just over 2 games more he's played in game time, not that much difference between them and the majority of the statis there Kovacic is superior and they are just the defensive stats, something Kante should be excelling in anyway. 

30 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Kovacic has 1331 minutes in the league. Kante has 1124, so that's like just over 2 games more he's played in game time, not that much difference between them and the majority of the statis there Kovacic is superior and they are just the defensive stats, something Kante should be excelling in anyway. 

So Kante with over 205 minutes less game time, while playing much higher up where it's harder to make good duels and tackles - only has 7 tackles less and about 20% worse duel percentage - means what to you?

I know for you Kovacic is the best midfielder in the league and far better than Essien has ever been...so I can just think that you probably think that Kovacic is a superior player than Kante as well 😄

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

Kovacic has 1331 minutes in the league. Kante has 1124, so that's like just over 2 games more he's played in game time, not that much difference between them and the majority of the statis there Kovacic is superior and they are just the defensive stats, something Kante should be excelling in anyway. 

....... and yet Slojo if you check out the EPL defensive stats on whoscored.com Kante is ahead of Kova in match averages for tackles, interceptions, clearances and defensive blocks.

In fact in all those aspects he is also behind Jorginho too.

Bloody stats!!!!!

Edited January 5, 20206 yr by just

2 hours ago, just said:

....... and yet Slojo if you check out the EPL defensive stats on whoscored.com Kante is ahead of Kova in match averages for tackles, interceptions, clearances and defensive blocks.

In fact in all those aspects he is also behind Jorginho too.

Bloody stats!!!!!

I've been thwarted then, statistics are the be all end all, I cannot argue otherwise. Immobile is better than Ronaldo, just look at his stats!!!

30 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I've been thwarted then, statistics are the be all end all, I cannot argue otherwise. Immobile is better than Ronaldo, just look at his stats!!!

Agreed slojo. I've always said you can never get the full picture of a player's contribution from stats alone, but overall they do give an indication of their strengths and weaknesses. Personally I think Kante's stats give a fair indicator that, so far, he is not having the particularly poor season a few people are saying he is.