Absolutely bullied tonight. The Jorginho / Kova central partnership is simply too lightweight. We badly need a physical presence in midfield for these games. For me it's the number one priority along with a striker to compete with Tammy.

27 minutes ago, just said:

Absolutely bullied tonight. The Jorginho / Kova central partnership is simply too lightweight. We badly need a physical presence in midfield for these games. For me it's the number one priority along with a striker to compete with Tammy.

94% passing, 3 tackles, 2 clearances...bullied? How can someone be so biased against a player is beyond me.

30 minutes ago, just said:

Absolutely bullied tonight. The Jorginho / Kova central partnership is simply too lightweight. We badly need a physical presence in midfield for these games. For me it's the number one priority along with a striker to compete with Tammy.

You wouldnt say that IF our forwards score... I think they bossed midfield but front 3 were sh*tt as usual lately. 

8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

94% passing, 3 tackles, 2 clearances...bullied? How can someone be so biased against a player is beyond me.

Biased. Yeah right oh. Forget the stats Gol. Go with what you saw. I saw him being  absolutely bullied by Fred and Matic all night whenever they closed him down or challenged him for the ball. He is so physically lightweight in 50/50 challenges and has absolutely no change of pace whatsoever. Defensively he offers nothing.

10 minutes ago, just said:

Biased. Yeah right oh. Forget the stats Gol. Go with what you saw. I saw him being  absolutely bullied by Fred and Matic all night whenever they closed him down or challenged him for the ball. He is so physically lightweight in 50/50 challenges and has absolutely no change of pace whatsoever. Defensively he offers nothing.

Glad someone is seeing it finally, he doesn’t protect our defence. You wouldn’t get away with that in the premiership. 
He is a part of the reason why we have lost the most games in a PL season in over 15yrs, and we are still in Feb.

Just now, ducavis said:

Glad someone is seeing it finally, he doesn’t protect our defence. You wouldn’t get away with that in the premiership. 
He is a part of the reason why we have lost the most games in a PL season in over 15yrs, and we are still in Feb.

The thing is ducavis I think Jorginho has been better this season and I really like his attitude. But God has not blessed him with any real physical attributes at all. Not one.  If he had an Essien, Keane or Viera along side him it wouldn't be such an issue. But we don't. So therefore to actually dominate the central midfield area in tight games we need him to be more physically imposing and hold his own in those 50-50 challenges. Unfortunately he can't and often the ball gets easily turned over when he is closed down. A classic example was Fred casually taking the ball off him on the edge of our box near the end. He did that a number of times tonight and Fred isn't exactly a bull of player.

25 minutes ago, just said:

Biased. Yeah right oh. Forget the stats Gol. Go with what you saw. I saw him being  absolutely bullied by Fred and Matic all night whenever they closed him down or challenged him for the ball. He is so physically lightweight in 50/50 challenges and has absolutely no change of pace whatsoever. Defensively he offers nothing.

I saw him playing better than Fred and Matic what have they offered the whole game? LOL 

31 minutes ago, just said:

Biased. Yeah right oh. Forget the stats Gol. Go with what you saw. I saw him being  absolutely bullied by Fred and Matic all night whenever they closed him down or challenged him for the ball. He is so physically lightweight in 50/50 challenges and has absolutely no change of pace whatsoever. Defensively he offers nothing.

Can you point out  where he was actually bullied am curious?

2 minutes ago, Brutos said:

Can you point out  where he was actually bullied am curious?

See my last above post or watch the game again. But it will make no difference to you Brutos. You would never offer or accept any negative comment on Jorginho. For you, he is immune from criticism whatever occurs.

If only you could apply a little of that blind loyalty to Frank Lampard.

30 minutes ago, just said:

See my last above post or watch the game again. But it will make no difference to you Brutos. You would never offer or accept any negative comment on Jorginho. For you, he is immune from criticism whatever occurs.

If only you could apply a little of that blind loyalty to Frank Lampard.

He was never bullied you're at some low point where you're seeing stuff that isn't there...

37 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He was never bullied you're at some low point where you're seeing stuff that isn't there...

Gol, you get really aggressive with your posts very quickly don't you? It's a definite psychological indicator of low self-esteem and excessive masturbation. Haven't had your keyboard aggression directed at me before but have seen you do it to other forum posters.

Years ago I would have pm'd you my home address so you could come round and I could kick the snot out of you. I'm too old for that now. But my missus has said she can pm you and when you come round she will kick the snot out of you.

24 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He was never bullied you're at some low point where you're seeing stuff that isn't there...

My word, you really need to temper your sensitivity regarding any criticism of Jorginho, Gol. Try not to let it get to you. Just’s entitled to his opinion, this isn’t  even a remotely controversial one and he’s also just defended Jorginho in another post. I happen to disagree somewhat with Just (to be more precise I take the point about us being lightweight in midfield , but I think there are other areas that need seeing to more urgently, thought kova and Jorginho combined really well until their goal) - but so what. We all have different views, different types of player preferences, playing styles etc etc. Kind of the whole point of a forum. There are / will inevitably be posts on this one that go too far and cause offence to some, but this really isn’t one of them. Take it on the chin. It’s not even your chin after all.

3 hours ago, just said:

Absolutely bullied tonight. The Jorginho / Kova central partnership is simply too lightweight. We badly need a physical presence in midfield for these games. For me it's the number one priority along with a striker to compete with Tammy.

Yet we've won most of our games and had the best success with that partnership this season. 

Against United I would rather Kante in the middle don't get me wrong, despite the bad form he has been in I would always pick him for the big games now when we must be more compact. But bottom line, as I've told you, midfield isn't the issue, it's the last thing that need changing right now, the defence and attack are horrendous. 

2 hours ago, just said:

The thing is ducavis I think Jorginho has been better this season and I really like his attitude. But God has not blessed him with any real physical attributes at all. Not one.  If he had an Essien, Keane or Viera along side him it wouldn't be such an issue. But we don't. So therefore to actually dominate the central midfield area in tight games we need him to be more physically imposing and hold his own in those 50-50 challenges. Unfortunately he can't and often the ball gets easily turned over when he is closed down. A classic example was Fred casually taking the ball off him on the edge of our box near the end. He did that a number of times tonight and Fred isn't exactly a bull of player.

I'm starting to think this is the issue Just, the game has moved on, it's not the 90's or early 2000's anymore, the game doesn't cater to physical players anymore. What sort of physical players do City and Liverpool have in the middle like those three you just mentioned? That's really far from the issue. The last thing we need is a bully boy in the middle getting sent off, because yes Viera and Keane would struggle in this era big time, with the amount of fouls they used to get away with, even Essien for how good he was wouldn't be at his best in this current setup although I would've loved him today of course. 

1 hour ago, just said:

Gol, you get really aggressive with your posts very quickly don't you? It's a definite psychological indicator of low self-esteem and excessive masturbation. Haven't had your keyboard aggression directed at me before but have seen you do it to other forum posters.

Years ago I would have pm'd you my home address so you could come round and I could kick the snot out of you. I'm too old for that now. But my missus has said she can pm you and when you come round she will kick the snot out of you.

Why are you so angry when people call you out? It's not my fault that you posted rubbish, expect to be called out when you're wrong this is what happens in a forum haven't you been around a bit?

Kick the snot out of me? Is it that you project this bully behavour to anyone you are biased against, like first Jorginho is bullied now you want to bully me online?

Stop being pathetic mate it's really embarrassing...

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

94% passing, 3 tackles, 2 clearances...bullied? How can someone be so biased against a player is beyond me.

 

4 hours ago, just said:

The thing is ducavis I think Jorginho has been better this season and I really like his attitude. But God has not blessed him with any real physical attributes at all. Not one.  If he had an Essien, Keane or Viera along side him it wouldn't be such an issue. But we don't. So therefore to actually dominate the central midfield area in tight games we need him to be more physically imposing and hold his own in those 50-50 challenges. Unfortunately he can't and often the ball gets easily turned over when he is closed down. A classic example was Fred casually taking the ball off him on the edge of our box near the end. He did that a number of times tonight and Fred isn't exactly a bull of player.

 

2 hours ago, Slojo said:

I'm starting to think this is the issue Just, the game has moved on, it's not the 90's or early 2000's anymore, the game doesn't cater to physical players anymore. What sort of physical players do City and Liverpool have in the middle like those three you just mentioned? That's really far from the issue. The last thing we need is a bully boy in the middle getting sent off, because yes Viera and Keane would struggle in this era big time, with the amount of fouls they used to get away with, even Essien for how good he was wouldn't be at his best in this current setup although I would've loved him today of course. 

Agree with slojo.. problem for Jorginho is the moment he tries a forward pass greater than 15 yards he looses the ball.. either the option is wrong or pace is off.. Which basically helps teams counter us with easy.. the 95% stats are when he is playing beat 1-2s in our box.. the problem starts the moment he comes up to the half line.. no surprise the number of assists he has.. but I think his passing and vision is very average 

12 minutes ago, Jangz said:

 

 

Agree with slojo.. problem for Jorginho is the moment he tries a forward pass greater than 15 yards he looses the ball.. either the option is wrong or pace is off.. Which basically helps teams counter us with easy.. the 95% stats are when he is playing beat 1-2s in our box.. the problem starts the moment he comes up to the half line.. no surprise the number of assists he has.. but I think his passing and vision is very average 

I think Jorginho is just too easily nullified, that's always been his problem. He's a fantastic player though, but I've never fancied in him in the big games. 

5 hours ago, Slojo said:

I'm starting to think this is the issue Just, the game has moved on, it's not the 90's or early 2000's anymore, the game doesn't cater to physical players anymore. What sort of physical players do City and Liverpool have in the middle like those three you just mentioned? That's really far from the issue. The last thing we need is a bully boy in the middle getting sent off, because yes Viera and Keane would struggle in this era big time, with the amount of fouls they used to get away with, even Essien for how good he was wouldn't be at his best in this current setup although I would've loved him today of course. 

Now that City play Fernandinho mostly in defence Slojo, they have no physically imposing players in the their midfield. But that was his major role for most of his career there and whilst he was never in the class of the 3 players I listed, he was a key part of their success. Liverpool have Henderson to do that job.

How Jorginho was bullied last night was blindingly obvious to me watching the game. Whenever he was pressured by Fred or Matic he usually lost the ball. The shoulder to shoulder challenges, the 50-50 challenges for possession, they were the ones who regularly came away with the ball, not Jorginho. The reason he commits so many fouls and gets booked so often is because he does not tackle well. He can't because he doesn't have much natural physicality or athleticism. He is very similar to Paul Scoles in that respect.

We will have to disagree on this Slojo but for me it is absolutely vital and obvious that we need to add some physical presence and athleticism to our central midfield. Reece James might be worth a try there. He played that position at Wigan and was by all accounts fantastic. Won their POTY.

11 minutes ago, just said:

Now that City play Fernandinho mostly in defence Slojo, they have no physically imposing players in the their midfield. But that was his major role for most of his career there and whilst he was never in the class of the 3 players I listed, he was a key part of their success. Liverpool have Henderson to do that job.

How Jorginho was bullied last night was blindingly obvious to me watching the game. Whenever he was pressured by Fred or Matic he usually lost the ball. The shoulder to shoulder challenges, the 50-50 challenges for possession, they were the ones who regularly came away with the ball, not Jorginho. The reason he commits so many fouls and gets booked so often is because he does not tackle well. He can't because he doesn't have much natural physicality or athleticism. He is very similar to Paul Scoles in that respect.

We will have to disagree on this Slojo but for me it is absolutely vital and obvious that we need to add some physical presence and athleticism to our central midfield. Reece James might be worth a try there. He played that position at Wigan and was by all accounts fantastic. Won their POTY.

Was just going to say Reece might be worth a go. 

Agree 100 percent on your various comments btw just. I've been saying for weeks that we have become Arsenal: tippy tappy, no stomach, no physicality and open without the ball.

Now that of course isn't Frank's fault he has the squad he has. But he can choose his XIs better. The impact that Giroud had when he came on was immense. For me a physical presence in midfield is also desperately needed. That sadly means the end of Jorginho. Who is likeable but just not up to non-Sarriball English football. 

Kante or Reece at the base and Ruben and Kovacic dribbling through midfields is the way forward.

19 minutes ago, just said:

Now that City play Fernandinho mostly in defence Slojo, they have no physically imposing players in the their midfield. But that was his major role for most of his career there and whilst he was never in the class of the 3 players I listed, he was a key part of their success. Liverpool have Henderson to do that job.

How Jorginho was bullied last night was blindingly obvious to me watching the game. Whenever he was pressured by Fred or Matic he usually lost the ball. The shoulder to shoulder challenges, the 50-50 challenges for possession, they were the ones who regularly came away with the ball, not Jorginho. The reason he commits so many fouls and gets booked so often is because he does not tackle well. He can't because he doesn't have much natural physicality or athleticism. He is very similar to Paul Scoles in that respect.

We will have to disagree on this Slojo but for me it is absolutely vital and obvious that we need to add some physical presence and athleticism to our central midfield. Reece James might be worth a try there. He played that position at Wigan and was by all accounts fantastic. Won their POTY.

Well I don't disagree with you on the Jorginho bit, I rate Jorginho and I think he's a quality player, but he didn't play well at all, I can recognise that. 

The problem I'm having is this concentration on midfield though, do you really think the midfield is the issue? I would say we've got an excellent midfield quite frankly. The defence is woeful and any bit of pressure on it and it crumbles, set piece defending is f**king dire, especially with Kepa there. And the attack has been shocking for a while, no composure, bad decision making, poor movement, need I go on? Fernandinho is not really that type of player either, he's always been rated on his distribution, Pep likes the Jorginho/Busquets type of player in midfield, he doesn't really play with DM's, he would never be interested in Kante for instance. 

United are a very physical team, yet where are they in the league? What has Matic and Fred served them? Both are average players and I'm not saying that to be bitter either, they are. There's a reason that without Pogba they badly struggle against the smaller teams and can't break them down. I really think the last player we need right now is a defensive midfielder or the type of player you're asking for, to be honest, I don't even think we need one at all. A good DM won't solve the issue, we'll still be sh*te at the back and our front 3 will still be limited. And I fully disagree on James, we need to keep him where he is, that's where he excels when he runs down the wing and whips a cross in, he won't be able to do that if he's playing in the middle of the park persuing the role you want him to. 

Just definitely has a point about physical presence. But I don’t think it has to be a Vieira or Keane type. Slojo is right that the game has moved on. Strength / presence can be deceptive and they don’t have to be built like a tank. Kante is an obvious example. Another is Modric - you wouldn’t think it as he’s small but he’s a really strong tackler, wins most of his one on ones. Jorginho has qualities but is definitely weak in the tackle. Plenty of evidence. 

11 minutes ago, Dean said:

Just definitely has a point about physical presence. But I don’t think it has to be a Vieira or Keane type. Slojo is right that the game has moved on. Strength / presence can be deceptive and they don’t have to be built like a tank. Kante is an obvious example. Another is Modric - you wouldn’t think it as he’s small but he’s a really strong tackler, wins most of his one on ones. Jorginho has qualities but is definitely weak in the tackle. Plenty of evidence. 

I actually don't think his tackling is too bad, he just lags behind too often, I think he lacks the pace to cover efficiently. 

Edited February 18, 20206 yr by Slojo

Hardly any midfield player is as perfect as De Bruyne or Milinkovic-Savic. Jorginho might lack in pace but he's our second highest player in terms of how many tackles he has done in the league, he's consistantly good in his role and has had just an odd bad performance in almost 2 years.

He does a lot of things at a very high level, this last game he did his role decently, nobody was outstanding, if it was as simple as to put a bigger, more physical player Bakayoko would have been a God by now.

The midfield was the least of our worries last night, I actually think we had the beating of them in the middle of the park. The problem is that we don't have forwards who can score and we are conceding with every chance that we give away. how many decent chances did they actually have last night? I cant think of any except for the 2 goals - Willy was barely tested. This has been a common theme all season.

We were also completely mugged off by all the officials last night which obvious didn't help.

Just now, Gol15 said:

Hardly any midfield player is as perfect as De Bruyne or Milinkovic-Savic. Jorginho might lack in pace but he's our second highest player in terms of how many tackles he has done in the league, he's consistantly good in his role and has had just an odd bad performance in almost 2 years.

He does a lot of things at a very high level, this last game he did his role decently, nobody was outstanding, if it was as simple as to put a bigger, more physical player Bakayoko would have been a God by now.

That is rather simplistic. No one is saying you need only brawn without finesse. Bakayoko was strong but had zero first touch and he was no better fit.

Most are simply pointing out that in big games physicality and the ability to cover ground quickly and win the ball in duels are important. Jorginho for his strengths just doesn't possess those skills regardless of what his out of context stats say. 

I don't think he was our worst yesterday by any stretch but its clear to me that like Kepa he suited Sarri but isn't part of the solution in the post Sarri era.