Yes, it doesn't help that positionally Kante often is very high up the pitch pressing and tackling which leaves Jorginho alone in the middle and he has no choice but to pass to the defense, where as Kovacic stays closer to Jorginho and offers him one more option to pass, not only that but it opens up more space for Jorginho as he will not be double marked as Kovacic will occupy the other marker. Its little things like that that can make a huge difference.
Again though today he was one of the best but he will need better players around him. 

This is the issue I love his pressing but if he gets bypassed up high the there is no cover at all behind

5 hours ago, Slojo said:

Far from his best today but I think he plays an instrumental role in our play, without him we seem to struggle to get going, his organisation and distribution is quality. Not to sound like a broken record but I think he plays much better next to Kovacic than he does Kante, or at least in the 3 man midfield. 

Jorginho and Kante really don't work as a combination, I'd go as far as saying even Jorgi/Barkley work better together.

With that in mind it has to be Kovacic starting with one or the other. 

Jorghy and Kante are among the top players in the world, they should play together in a 2 man deeper role midfield while Mount is the offensive midfielder. The other formation 4-3-3 should have Kante and Kovacic and Mount in midfield.  

9 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Jorghy and Kante are among the top players in the world, they should play together in a 2 man deeper role midfield while Mount is the offensive midfielder. The other formation 4-3-3 should have Kante and Kovacic and Mount in midfield.  

And how has that worked out? Whenever we've had the midfield of Jorginho-Kante it has been awful. 

10 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Jorghy and Kante are among the top players in the world, they should play together in a 2 man deeper role midfield while Mount is the offensive midfielder. The other formation 4-3-3 should have Kante and Kovacic and Mount in midfield.  

Doesn't matter if they're the two best player's ever in that position, if they don't want as a combo then they can't play together.

2 hours ago, Argo said:

Doesn't matter if they're the two best player's ever in that position, if they don't want as a combo then they can't play together.

It's a myth that they can't play together.

Was Lampard & Gerrard unable to play together a myth?

15 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

Was Lampard & Gerrard unable to play together a myth?

I think so , I hated this argument. If they are good enough players they can play together,  they would work it out. One has to sit deeper maybe, Xavi and Ineista for example.  

4 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

Was Lampard & Gerrard unable to play together a myth?

Yes. The problematic was in the formation, England's bail out was mostly Beckham, so the 4-4-2 was difficult for Lampard-Gerard-Scholes because Beckham was a given right wing midfielder. If I remember it correctly. 

4 hours ago, andy said:

I think so , I hated this argument. If they are good enough players they can play together,  they would work it out. One has to sit deeper maybe, Xavi and Ineista for example.  

 

13 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Yes. The problematic was in the formation, England's bail out was mostly Beckham, so the 4-4-2 was difficult for Lampard-Gerard-Scholes because Beckham was a given right wing midfielder. If I remember it correctly. 

I thought it would work if Gareth Barry was in a DM role behind the two - I can't remember the English gaffer that came up with that idea, but I think because of the results he didn't last long

There are many variables at play, but it's a short season and so far, the midfield duo of Kante and Jorginho hasn't worked well. And Kovacic has been one of our best players of the season, why sit him out at the expense of playing one out of form player on reputation? Since the injury Kante hasn't been the same, in games where we have to break teams down he offers very little, and when Brighton started going direct Kante was still not at his best, he offered very little, he can't deal with having the responsibilities of attacking and defending like that. Yes he has been a box to box player, but under Conte he was more of a ball winning midfielder, he played deeper, since Sarri he runs forward more and that's obviously affected his defensive abilities. 

Jorginho on the other hand has been really good this season, but next to Kante he's had some of his worst games, with Kovacic he plays much better, this is mostly to do with the retention and distribution of Kovacic, their chemistry is undeniable and has severely helped us get into this position we are in. Remember the one-two against City from Kovacic and Jorginho? Then the longball to Kante? Look at how good that was, both of them have been doing it all season. Yes there has definitely been gaps in the midfield with both of them, but it's a hell of a lot better than having Kante in the pivot recently. 

I really don't know why we can't just go back to the Jorginho-Kovacic midfield, both of them play at their best, we shouldn't have to accomodate to a players reputation, Jorginho and Kovacic have been much better. 

20 hours ago, Gol15 said:

It's a myth that they can't play together.

It's also a myth that they've ever played well together, that which we know for certain. 

3 hours ago, Slojo said:

It's also a myth that they've ever played well together, that which we know for certain. 

I can put up examples where they both played well at the same time during a same game, during last season and this season.

So you're clueless as always, I don't even know why I bother to reply to a "we know for certain that they never never ever played well together" comment, you sound like you're braindead no wonder you were gone when we won Arsenal but came back just to troll when we drew against Brighton...

Obvious troll is obvious, stop quoting me already you're almost as annoying as our orange socks last game!

They looked red to me, but in any event they are real ugly 

18 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Yes. The problematic was in the formation, England's bail out was mostly Beckham, so the 4-4-2 was difficult for Lampard-Gerard-Scholes because Beckham was a given right wing midfielder. If I remember it correctly. 

Good point about Beckham as these days few teams play 4-4-2.

56 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

Good point about Beckham as these days few teams play 4-4-2.

I think there was a game where either Lampard or Scholes actually played as the wide midfielder on the left side...Today most managers would try and solve it with 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard and Scholes playing more deep and Lampard more forward, Beckham would need to adapt to the wing a bit though...

Gerrard was a really versatile player, so it made sense to play him on the right and Lampard in middle. That golden generation really should have done better, the whole team oozed class.

4 hours ago, Slojo said:

There are many variables at play, but it's a short season and so far, the midfield duo of Kante and Jorginho hasn't worked well. And Kovacic has been one of our best players of the season, why sit him out at the expense of playing one out of form player on reputation? Since the injury Kante hasn't been the same, in games where we have to break teams down he offers very little, and when Brighton started going direct Kante was still not at his best, he offered very little, he can't deal with having the responsibilities of attacking and defending like that. Yes he has been a box to box player, but under Conte he was more of a ball winning midfielder, he played deeper, since Sarri he runs forward more and that's obviously affected his defensive abilities. 

Jorginho on the other hand has been really good this season, but next to Kante he's had some of his worst games, with Kovacic he plays much better, this is mostly to do with the retention and distribution of Kovacic, their chemistry is undeniable and has severely helped us get into this position we are in. Remember the one-two against City from Kovacic and Jorginho? Then the longball to Kante? Look at how good that was, both of them have been doing it all season. Yes there has definitely been gaps in the midfield with both of them, but it's a hell of a lot better than having Kante in the pivot recently. 

I really don't know why we can't just go back to the Jorginho-Kovacic midfield, both of them play at their best, we shouldn't have to accomodate to a players reputation, Jorginho and Kovacic have been much better. 

Has Jorginho really been that good? I think there is a debate to be had there. For me presently and in the long term the only constant is/should be Kovacic. Football is moving away from the possession style of football championed by Barca (they don’t even play possession football anymore) and Pep’s Man City. Kovacic is comfortable in  a 3-man midfield which Sarri even alluded to several times. For him to be effective, he needs a chaperone to do the dirty work which isn’t is strongest point; like Pirlo with De Rossi and Gattuso. With Lamps favouring a 4–2-3-1, unless you are sitting a DM next to him which Kante is trying to do he will be targeted.
 

An argument could be made that if we had a DM in Jorginho’s spot; an Ndidi or Partey we will be more solid defensively and wouldn’t concede as many goals as we do. Granted our defence is ropey; but if Lamps is expecting the fullbacks to provide width like TAA & Robertson do for Liverpool, you need your sitting midfielder to protect and fill in the gaps left by your marauding fullback. If Jorginho possessed the skill set of a Modric or a peak Fabregas you can stick him a lil bit higher and know his range of passes and accuracy to spray passes cross field will get him out of sticky situations. His limited range of passes to players in close proximity means he will always be targeted.

I would like to see us pair Jorgy with Kovacic for a couple of matches to see if it can work as it did before December.

I say this as I think Jorgy brings the ball out from defense better than Kante.

If this did not work I would suggest Kante and Kovacic.

 

 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I can put up examples where they both played well at the same time during a same game, during last season and this season.

So you're clueless as always, I don't even know why I bother to reply to a "we know for certain that they never never ever played well together" comment, you sound like you're braindead no wonder you were gone when we won Arsenal but came back just to troll when we drew against Brighton...

Obvious troll is obvious, stop quoting me already you're almost as annoying as our orange socks last game!

They never played in the pivot together last year... 

And I wasn't gone when we beat Arsenal at all you illiterate ballbag. 

14 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

I would like to see us pair Jorgy with Kovacic for a couple of matches to see if it can work as it did before December.

I say this as I think Jorgy brings the ball out from defense better than Kante.

If this did not work I would suggest Kante and Kovacic.

 

 

The only big games this season that we actually won - Kante was playing them and the ones we lost he was playing well, even coming back from injury he scored against Man City.

You can make an argument that he didn't play well against Arsenal but his average is 6.9 from the past 5 games which includes the 5.85 game against Southampton where he was poor, thus you can really forget about this false narrative that Kante doesn't play well. 

I posted in his topic that the problem could be the instructions he gets from Lampard. He presses high and when the ball reaches the opposition striker for example, our midfield is broken pretty fast. This is why I praised both Jorgihno and Kovacic when they made tactical fouls for yellow cards.

During pre-season and early on in the PL season our midfield was pressing way too high up, now Kante is still pressing too high and our midfield falls apart still.

 

53 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Has Jorginho really been that good? I think there is a debate to be had there. For me presently and in the long term the only constant is/should be Kovacic. Football is moving away from the possession style of football championed by Barca (they don’t even play possession football anymore) and Pep’s Man City. Kovacic is comfortable in  a 3-man midfield which Sarri even alluded to several times. For him to be effective, he needs a chaperone to do the dirty work which isn’t is strongest point; like Pirlo with De Rossi and Gattuso. With Lamps favouring a 4–2-3-1, unless you are sitting a DM next to him which Kante is trying to do he will be targeted.
 

An argument could be made that if we had a DM in Jorginho’s spot; an Ndidi or Partey we will be more solid defensively and wouldn’t concede as many goals as we do. Granted our defence is ropey; but if Lamps is expecting the fullbacks to provide width like TAA & Robertson do for Liverpool, you need your sitting midfielder to protect and fill in the gaps left by your marauding fullback. If Jorginho possessed the skill set of a Modric or a peak Fabregas you can stick him a lil bit higher and know his range of passes and accuracy to spray passes cross field will get him out of sticky situations. His limited range of passes to players in close proximity means he will always be targeted.

Kovacic has played much better in the two man midfield than he did last year in the three, Kovacic and Jorginho were an excellent pairing. You do raise a very good point, but I think we've conceded most of our goals due to our inexperienced backline and Kepa's bad organisation. 

Our possession this season has been superb, we know how to keep hold of the ball, until recently that is. I think Jorginho has been instrumental to that. He has been poor in the last month of games or so, and I think that's due to the midfield being disrupted, before that he was playing very well and getting the ball forward more which was one of the critical talking points last year of his. 

8 minutes ago, Slojo said:

They never played in the pivot together last year... 

And I wasn't gone when we beat Arsenal at all you illiterate ballbag. 

What does that have to do with your stupid statement? Lol you always add further more stupid things to your stupid claims when you cant back them up...

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

The only big games this season that we actually won - Kante was playing them and the ones we lost he was playing well, even coming back from injury he scored against Man City.

You can make an argument that he didn't play well against Arsenal but his average is 6.9 from the past 5 games which includes the 5.85 game against Southampton where he was poor, thus you can really forget about this false narrative that Kante doesn't play well. 

I posted in his topic that the problem could be the instructions he gets from Lampard. He presses high and when the ball reaches the opposition striker for example, our midfield is broken pretty fast. This is why I praised both Jorgihno and Kovacic when they made tactical fouls for yellow cards.

During pre-season and early on in the PL season our midfield was pressing way too high up, now Kante is still pressing too high and our midfield falls apart still.

 

And during that month we also lost more games than we won, so what's your point? And how does Kante having an average 6.9 rating have anything to do with him playing well against Arsenal or not? Yeah let's judge how well a player does by his rating on WhoScored.com, another genius take from you. 

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

What does that have to do with your stupid statement? Lol you always add further more stupid things to your stupid claims when you cant back them up...

What does last season have to do with it? I'm clearly talking about this season and in the pivot, in the pivot this season they haven't played well together, last season is completely irrelevant... Also the person you quoted was specifically talking about the Jorginho-Kante pivot.