2 minutes ago, Slojo said:

What does last season have to do with it? I'm clearly talking about this season and in the pivot, in the pivot this season they haven't played well together, last season is completely irrelevant... Also the person you quoted was specifically talking about the Jorginho-Kante pivot. 

No you're clearly clueless so you now (like always) add random conditions to your first stupid claim. 

On 01/01/2020 at 23:19, Argo said:

Jorginho and Kante really don't work as a combination, I'd go as far as saying even Jorgi/Barkley work better together.

With that in mind it has to be Kovacic starting with one or the other. 

 

On 02/01/2020 at 10:39, Argo said:

Doesn't matter if they're the two best player's ever in that position, if they don't want as a combo then they can't play together.

 

On 02/01/2020 at 13:01, Gol15 said:

It's a myth that they can't play together.

 

Okay tell me how Argo isn't specifically talking about Jorginho-Kante in the pivot... You're aware we play in a two man midfield yes? So as a combination in that two man midfield Jorginho-Kante haven't played well together, so what's last years 4-3-3 got to do with it? Kante wasn't playing as high up as Mason Mount then, Kovacic certainly wasn't, this season we have been playing with one less man in midfield. Notice how Argo even says Kovacic must play with either "one or the other" implying that it's definitely 2 man max. Either you're being dishonest, or you actually though Argo was talking about every formation completely, if so that's just stupid. 

I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm not adding different conditions to the argument as you put it, this is simply what the debate and topic was about. 

Edited January 3, 20206 yr by Slojo

Just now, Slojo said:

 

 

 

Okay tell me how Argo isn't specifically talking about Jorginho-Kante in the pivot... You're aware we play in a two man midfield yes? So as a combination in that two man midfield Jorginho-Kante haven't played well together, so what's last years 4-3-3 got to do with it? Kante wasn't playing as high up as Mason Mount then, Kovacic certainly wasn't, this season we have been playing with a less man in midfield. 

I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm not adding different conditions to the argument as you put it, this is simply what the debate and topic was about. 

Clearly you lost the plot, again. I said something and someone quoted me first - to which I replied. Then you literally stated that Kante and Jorginho never ever had a good game together and that according to you everyone knows that that is a fact. Get out.

Kante was always a box to box midfielder, in a 4-4-2 in a 4-3-3 in a -4-2-3-1...you are just clueless.

10 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

This is what happens when a clueless guy gets called out, he just keeps inventing sh*t endlessly...nothing to see here.

3 hours ago, Phillip said:

They looked red to me, but in any event they are real ugly 

Definitely orange, when they should have been blue, as I kept telling everybody. I'm very pleased the latest meeting of minds in tbis thread has produced this conclusion. I feel totally vindicated!

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

The only big games this season that we actually won - Kante was playing them and the ones we lost he was playing well, even coming back from injury he scored against Man City.

You can make an argument that he didn't play well against Arsenal but his average is 6.9 from the past 5 games which includes the 5.85 game against Southampton where he was poor, thus you can really forget about this false narrative that Kante doesn't play well. 

I posted in his topic that the problem could be the instructions he gets from Lampard. He presses high and when the ball reaches the opposition striker for example, our midfield is broken pretty fast. This is why I praised both Jorgihno and Kovacic when they made tactical fouls for yellow cards.

During pre-season and early on in the PL season our midfield was pressing way too high up, now Kante is still pressing too high and our midfield falls apart still.

Just looked back on the results since City (don't count that as they were playing well) the combination that appears not to work is Jorginho with Kante - Southampton, Bournemouth and Brighton.

16 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

Just looked back on the results since City (don't count that as they were playing well) the combination that appears not to work is Jorginho with Kante - Southampton, Bournemouth and Brighton.

I don't think it's the players,but just the particular player instructions that need some tweaks like I said. Some games like you pointed out were lost or not won with Kante Jorginho, others like West Ham had Jorginho Kovacic or like Villa and Everton where it was Kante Kovacic...It's not as simple as to take away 1 player and suddenly we win every game with a winning combination, but Kante is our best player that can do much more for the team.

Jorginho and Kovacic look our best combination. 

5 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Jorginho and Kovacic look our best combination. 

If our best player doesn't fit in then what are we talking about? 

Kante played in every big game we won, when he didn't we simply couldn't win a big game. It's absurd to write off Kante like this.

9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I don't think it's the players,but just the particular player instructions that need some tweaks like I said. Some games like you pointed out were lost or not won with Kante Jorginho, others like West Ham had Jorginho Kovacic or like Villa and Everton where it was Kante Kovacic...It's not as simple as to take away 1 player and suddenly we win every game with a winning combination, but Kante is our best player that can do much more for the team.

No one's saying it's solely the difference between winning and losing but it was still poor from Frank's perspective to throw him back in when Jorgi, Kova and Mount were working so well and we were winning games well.

Maybe in the not to distant timeframe one of those players would have dropped off, Kante then got his start, played his absolute best, started the next game repeated the trick and became undroppable again, but the point i and others are making is it sent the wrong message him walking straight back in, if we're going to promote a fair fight for places that should apply to everyone whether it's Kante or Jamie Cumming.

1 minute ago, Argo said:

No one's saying it's solely the difference between winning and losing but it was still poor from Frank's perspective to throw him back in when Jorgi, Kova and Mount were working so well and we were winning games well.

Maybe in the not to distant timeframe one of those players would have dropped off, Kante then got his start, played his absolute best, started the next game repeated the trick and became undroppable again, but the point i and others are making is it sent the wrong message him walking straight back in, if we're going to promote a fair fight for places that should apply to everyone whether it's Kante or Jamie Cumming.

Good point, I didn't consider this. 

8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

If our best player doesn't fit in then what are we talking about? 

Kante played in every big game we won, when he didn't we simply couldn't win a big game. It's absurd to write off Kante like this.

Isn’t that because we see less of the ball against the big teams so he is at his best when he is winning balls back? There is a theory that Kante is better in a counter attacking formation, stints at Leicester, under Conte & the French setup supports this. Under Sarri my feeling was he was played further up the pitch to mask his weakness on the ball and make use of his ball winning skills further up the pitch.

I feel the issues we have in midfield are a personnel one. Mount can lead the press but offers little creativity on the ball, Jorginho is better in a 3 where he is protected, and Kante is best in a counter attacking formation. Something has to give in the long term, and I personally feel a DM should be a priority in the summer. 

44 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

If our best player doesn't fit in then what are we talking about? 

Kante played in every big game we won, when he didn't we simply couldn't win a big game. It's absurd to write off Kante like this.

That's because we counter attack against those teams more. Don't need to do that against 80% of the teams in this league. 

1 hour ago, ducavis said:

Isn’t that because we see less of the ball against the big teams so he is at his best when he is winning balls back? There is a theory that Kante is better in a counter attacking formation, stints at Leicester, under Conte & the French setup supports this. Under Sarri my feeling was he was played further up the pitch to mask his weakness on the ball and make use of his ball winning skills further up the pitch.

I feel the issues we have in midfield are a personnel one. Mount can lead the press but offers little creativity on the ball, Jorginho is better in a 3 where he is protected, and Kante is best in a counter attacking formation. Something has to give in the long term, and I personally feel a DM should be a priority in the summer. 

So you're saying that Kante doesn't fit in our squad but that we should sell Jorginho or him and get a DM instead? 

I find it odd since Kante proved himself in every team, France didn't really play just for the counter attack and last season Sarri didn't really do that overall, he adapted to the Sarriball after maybe 10 games, even this season he's making runs forward.

I mean sure I understand this view, but I still find it odd that we would simply give up on Kante because that somehow sounds like lets say if Barcelona wants to stop adapting their system to Messi because he only fits in one system...I'm trying to say that players like Kante are rare to find.

1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

That's because we counter attack against those teams more. Don't need to do that against 80% of the teams in this league. 

I think Kante has the quality to win games even against teams that we should dominate, maybe thats not a mindblowing opinion after all...

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

I think Kante has the quality to win games even against teams that we should dominate, maybe thats not a mindblowing opinion after all...

What attributes does he have to unlock packed defenses? Not a great finisher, not particularly creative, can't weave through several players. 

Kante is fantastic, but has to be used correctly. 

14 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

What attributes does he have to unlock packed defenses? Not a great finisher, not particularly creative, can't weave through several players. 

Kante is fantastic, but has to be used correctly. 

Shut up you idiot, you're clueless! 

17 hours ago, ducavis said:

Isn’t that because we see less of the ball against the big teams so he is at his best when he is winning balls back? There is a theory that Kante is better in a counter attacking formation, stints at Leicester, under Conte & the French setup supports this. Under Sarri my feeling was he was played further up the pitch to mask his weakness on the ball and make use of his ball winning skills further up the pitch.

I feel the issues we have in midfield are a personnel one. Mount can lead the press but offers little creativity on the ball, Jorginho is better in a 3 where he is protected, and Kante is best in a counter attacking formation. Something has to give in the long term, and I personally feel a DM should be a priority in the summer. 

Thats exactly how i see our midfield at the moment. All 4 players have some good attributes, but there are times where it doesnt quite fit. 

I agree with @just, we lack a physical presence in the middle if the park in some games.

I think we will see how this season plays out with RLC to possibly to get himself in the equation. 

Then in the summer, we may have to make a big decision, in order to get a better balance in the middle of the park.

14 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

What attributes does he have to unlock packed defenses? Not a great finisher, not particularly creative, can't weave through several players. 

Kante is fantastic, but has to be used correctly. 

You are making him look like a one-dimentional player, which he really isn't. So I agree to disagree here, this question about what does he have can be asked to all of our players and nobody has all those things you mention part from maybe Pulisic and Tammy! It has been a problem for the whole squad to break defenses, but you keep on going with only Kante which is dishonest at best...nitpicking our best player like this has been somewhat a custom for Chelsea fans, no wonder many consider us as ungrateful rentboys or whatever, and it shows since you got plenty of hearts for this comment, for me this is a sad way to go about Kante that all in all doesn't deserve any of that treatment but some fans that loved your comment probably support the idea of selling Kante, I'm simply not one of those fans.

Kante should be used correctly, he shouldn't be labelled as the player that disrupted somethin and that offers nothing, you would choose to win every low ranked team and lose every big game and every derby like some people that have said that they would prefer to have lost against Arsenal and Spurs for a win against Villa,Brighton and such...This is just a very opposite view from mine so I simply don't agree with your view - it's very, very easy to do what you did in your comment, I could do that to all of our players if I wanted to.

The last person at the club that was so dogmatic was Sarri and he was really hated by the fans, I think you should start over your whole thought process.

Edited January 4, 20206 yr by Gol15

8 hours ago, Gol15 said:

You are making him look like a one-dimentional player, which he really isn't. So I agree to disagree here, this question about what does he have can be asked to all of our players and nobody has all those things you mention part from maybe Pulisic and Tammy! It has been a problem for the whole squad to break defenses, but you keep on going with only Kante which is dishonest at best...nitpicking our best player like this has been somewhat a custom for Chelsea fans, no wonder many consider us as ungrateful rentboys or whatever, and it shows since you got plenty of hearts for this comment, for me this is a sad way to go about Kante that all in all doesn't deserve any of that treatment but some fans that loved your comment probably support the idea of selling Kante, I'm simply not one of those fans.

Kante should be used correctly, he shouldn't be labelled as the player that disrupted somethin and that offers nothing, you would choose to win every low ranked team and lose every big game and every derby like some people that have said that they would prefer to have lost against Arsenal and Spurs for a win against Villa,Brighton and such...This is just a very opposite view from mine so I simply don't agree with your view - it's very, very easy to do what you did in your comment, I could do that to all of our players if I wanted to.

The last person at the club that was so dogmatic was Sarri and he was really hated by the fans, I think you should start over your whole thought process.

No one has all those attributes, but everyone else has one or two. My point is Kante doesn't really have any. 

Pulisic is creative.

Mount can pop up in the box and poke a goal in.

Jorginho is creative.

Kovacic can dribble past players with ease.

What does Kante offer in the attacking phase?

1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

No one has all those attributes, but everyone else has one or two. My point is Kante doesn't really have any. 

Pulisic is creative.

Mount can pop up in the box and poke a goal in.

Jorginho is creative.

Kovacic can dribble past players with ease.

What does Kante offer in the attacking phase?

Kante offers more than Jorginho and Kovacic. In all phases of the game pretty much. You are right, Pulisic is a better attacker, he's a winger, Mount is an attacking midfielder, or a winger sometimes so his skill set offensivly is also better but Kante can also pop up in the box and score, last season when Sarri said that Kante can do that he was right about it. Jorginho scores from penalties mostly, Kovacic scores a goal once a year.

He can get into space, has good off ball movement and has a better shot and finish than at least Jorginho and Kovacic, maybe equal with Mount I dare to say...

Last season he proved he can be effective in the final third, this season right after his injury he comes and scored against Man City after a great off ball movement and finish...I didn't see Jorgihno and Kovacic doing everything that Kante can do, but I saw Kante doing 90% of the things that the other two are doing...

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Kante offers more than Jorginho and Kovacic. In all phases of the game pretty much. You are right, Pulisic is a better attacker, he's a winger, Mount is an attacking midfielder, or a winger sometimes so his skill set offensivly is also better but Kante can also pop up in the box and score, last season when Sarri said that Kante can do that he was right about it. Jorginho scores from penalties mostly, Kovacic scores a goal once a year.

He can get into space, has good off ball movement and has a better shot and finish than at least Jorginho and Kovacic, maybe equal with Mount I dare to say...

Last season he proved he can be effective in the final third, this season right after his injury he comes and scored against Man City after a great off ball movement and finish...I didn't see Jorgihno and Kovacic doing everything that Kante can do, but I saw Kante doing 90% of the things that the other two are doing...

100%

The Kante vendetta may be the most bizarre thing I've seen in my time on this forum. Best player we have by streets and some are claiming we'd be better off without him in the team.