1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

Works fine for France.

I think there has been an illusion created in the past decade based largely on Busquets that you need to have a DM who is good on the ball to drop deep play out from the back.

Truth is that you can build up through the fullbacks or through rotation in mdifield (this is what we did in Jose's second stint) sometimes being reliant on a single player in build up is limiting. As we saw plenty last season teams would block Jorginho and we'd be f**ked. 

Kante would be fine receiving the ball. He is much better than anyone gives him credit for. Frank's insistence on not using him at the base is one of his two key personnel mistakes this year. The other is not playing Giroud and Pedro.

Giroud is a starter for France. Doesn't really mean anything since their team is full of world class players, it's easy to play for France you would be around world class players on every part of the pitch so it's not an argument. Kante never played the role of Jorginho so we can't really speculate that much.

First you got sick of our defensive football without possession, then you got sick of our possession based football that we tried to play for the first time in many years and got to be top 3, and now you want something in between?

If I remember correctly, nobody rates Kante anymore since he "only plays well when we don't have much possession against better teams than us" so when you say that Kante should play the Jorginho role it looks like you simply gave up on Lampard and our new style of play that started with Sarri, which is like having a defeatist attitude, you're basically saying that this project is done and that we should go back to play with 30% possession.

You may be only mentioning Lampard but the fact is nobody ever played Kante that way, not Sarri, not Conte, and none of them are stupid, Kante is the best when he's running around, he would be half the player if he had the movement of a deep lying playmaker.

If we had a consistent player as Jorginho somewhere else on the pitch, we would have a better team, he enables players around him but if the strongest player is actually a weak link it simply doesn't work. Kovacic gets a lot of space because of Jorginho but even he fails often as soon as he looks to make a through ball for a chance creation, he runs with the ball around the pitch when it's the least dangerous for the opppsition, and he's not even close to be a weak link with the ball but imagine having someone with an end product next to Jorginho...

There is a reason why Pep wanted him.

Edited February 18, 20206 yr by Gol15

17 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Giroud is a starter for France. Doesn't really mean anything since their team is full of world class players, it's easy to play for France you would be around world class players on every part of the pitch so it's not an argument. Kante never played the role of Jorginho so we can't really speculate that much.

First you got sick of our defensive football without possession, then you got sick of our possession based football that we tried to play for the first time in many years and got to be top 3, and now you want something in between?

If I remember correctly, nobody rates Kante anymore since he "only plays well when we don't have much possession against better teams than us" so when you say that Kante should play the Jorginho role it looks like you simply gave up on Lampard and our new style of play that started with Sarri, which is like having a defeatist attitude, you're basically saying that this project is done and that we should go back to play with 30% possession.

You may be only mentioning Lampard but the fact is nobody ever played Kante that way, not Sarri, not Conte, and none of them are stupid, Kante is the best when he's running around, he would be half the player if he had the movement of a deep lying playmaker.

If we had a consistant player as Jorginho somewhere else on the pitch, we would have a better team, he enables players around him but if the strongest player is actually a weak link it simply doesn't work. Kovacic gets a lot of space because of Jorginho but even he fails often as soon as he looks to make a through ball for a chance creation, he runs with the ball around the pitch when it's the least dangerous for the opppsition, imagine having someone with an end product next to Jorginho...

There is a reason why Pep wanted him.

Didn't know you'd been carefully tracking my posts for several years. I'm flattered. But just to clear up a couple of points:

1. I have no issue with more defensively stable football. I was a big believer in and supporter of Conte. He's the best manager we've had here in my life apart from Jose Mk1.

2. I've never said that Kante only plays well when we don't have the ball. I think he is a top top player but is best suited to a deeper role that he played under Ranieri and then under Conte. 

3. Let's not for a second conclude that any criticism of Jorginho is linked at all with criticism of Frank. Big believer in what he is trying to do. Just believe it would be better enabled by not having Jorginho in the team.

4. We've stopped playing Sarriball. Our game atm resembles very little of that approach. Frank and Sarri's approaches are not a continuation. Pep may well want Jorginho but that is because his play would suit Peps system. It doesn't suit our current one. 

Works fine for France.
I think there has been an illusion created in the past decade based largely on Busquets that you need to have a DM who is good on the ball to drop deep play out from the back.
Truth is that you can build up through the fullbacks or through rotation in mdifield (this is what we did in Jose's second stint) sometimes being reliant on a single player in build up is limiting. As we saw plenty last season teams would block Jorginho and we'd be f**ked. 
Kante would be fine receiving the ball. He is much better than anyone gives him credit for. Frank's insistence on not using him at the base is one of his two key personnel mistakes this year. The other is not playing Giroud and Pedro.

You will lose the ball constantly period you know that I know that

So this is the thing, you personally might have no problems with anyone but only with Jorginho.

Lets say we sell him. I have no problem with that as long as we get another replacement but who would that be? 

Marina did a great job selling Matic for 40m, Bakayoko was supposed to have been a new mix of Makelele and Toure, not her fault he didn't do well. Then we get Jorginho only because Sarri became our manager. Is this midfield position becoming as complicated as having a good striker has been up till we got Tammy?

Our defense can't clear a semi good cross, can't defend a corner, selling Jorginho and getting back Bakayoko won't change that. I don't believe that everything would be solved as soon as we replace Jorginho, Kepa hasn't been playing and yet we still concede goals in the same fashion, 1 shot on target 1 goal scored against us.

Who would you buy @Spiller86 as a replacement for Jorginho?

8 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Works fine for France.

I think there has been an illusion created in the past decade based largely on Busquets that you need to have a DM who is good on the ball to drop deep play out from the back.

Truth is that you can build up through the fullbacks or through rotation in mdifield (this is what we did in Jose's second stint) sometimes being reliant on a single player in build up is limiting. As we saw plenty last season teams would block Jorginho and we'd be f**ked. 

Kante would be fine receiving the ball. He is much better than anyone gives him credit for. Frank's insistence on not using him at the base is one of his two key personnel mistakes this year. The other is not playing Giroud and Pedro.

You're not seriously comparing international football with club football are you?...

Just had a look at the 2018 word cup winning team and Kante plays with Pogba in defensive midfield. 

Neither of them played as defensive midfielders though, both were box to box. 

3 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

Just had a look at the 2018 word cup winning team and Kante plays with Pogba in defensive midfield. 

That’s not true.. matuidi Kante and Pogba played as a 3 man midfield .. 

22 hours ago, Gol15 said:

So this is the thing, you personally might have no problems with anyone but only with Jorginho.

Lets say we sell him. I have no problem with that as long as we get another replacement but who would that be? 

Marina did a great job selling Matic for 40m, Bakayoko was supposed to have been a new mix of Makelele and Toure, not her fault he didn't do well. Then we get Jorginho only because Sarri became our manager. Is this midfield position becoming as complicated as having a good striker has been up till we got Tammy?

Our defense can't clear a semi good cross, can't defend a corner, selling Jorginho and getting back Bakayoko won't change that. I don't believe that everything would be solved as soon as we replace Jorginho, Kepa hasn't been playing and yet we still concede goals in the same fashion, 1 shot on target 1 goal scored against us.

Who would you buy @Spiller86 as a replacement for Jorginho?

Lots of problems. Not just Jorginho. I've been  an advocate for a while for an experienced organising centre half. We've missed Luiz and Cahill this year. There's also a lack of mental and physical toughness across the squad that bothers me. Too many waif and not enough winners.

I wouldn't sign a like for like replacement for Jorginho but naming specific replacements is probably a bit of a pointless exercise. Always depends on who is available, what deals can get done etc.

If it were my choice I'd be pursuing Saúl from Atletico. He's been misused by Simeone playing at left back and all over. The word is he isn't overly happy. He would tick every box needed in our midfield. Could partner any of our existing players. Get up and down, dictate the tempo and track and defend. He's physically solid and turns up on the big nights (witness Liverpool last night). Anyway that's my pick. There are other cheaper younger players but to fix a stack of problems in the squad right now I'd spend my £80-100 on him. You? 

15 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

Lots of problems. Not just Jorginho. I've been  an advocate for a while for an experienced organising centre half. We've missed Luiz and Cahill this year. There's also a lack of mental and physical toughness across the squad that bothers me. Too many waif and not enough winners.

I wouldn't sign a like for like replacement for Jorginho but naming specific replacements is probably a bit of a pointless exercise. Always depends on who is available, what deals can get done etc.

If it were my choice I'd be pursuing Saúl from Atletico. He's been misused by Simeone playing at left back and all over. The word is he isn't overly happy. He would tick every box needed in our midfield. Could partner any of our existing players. Get up and down, dictate the tempo and track and defend. He's physically solid and turns up on the big nights (witness Liverpool last night). Anyway that's my pick. There are other cheaper younger players but to fix a stack of problems in the squad right now I'd spend my £80-100 on him. You? 

Saúl is a good player, I like the way you think.

I can offer some players just to have in mind though, maybe not as good as Saul overall but still...Rúben Neves from Wolves, Kessie from AC Milan and even Harry Winks from Spuds. All are most likely more physically stronger than Jorginho and most can pass just as well. The most ideal would be Milinokvic-Savic for me, though I don't see us getting him.

16 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Saúl is a good player, I like the way you think.

I can offer some players just to have in mind though, maybe not as good as Saul overall but still...Rúben Neves from Wolves, Kessie from AC Milan and even Harry Winks from Spuds. All are most likely more physically stronger than Jorginho and most can pass just as well. The most ideal would be Milinokvic-Savic for me, though I don't see us getting him.

I think the thing with SMS is he sounds great on paper. 190cm+ good goalscoring record but when you watch him he is not overly... dynamic. He just sort of strolls around but without that burst of pace that Ruben has.

You watch him and think you should be ragdolling everyone and just dominating. But he doesn't. Nice bits here and there but in watching Lazio he doesn't take games by the scruff. For his price I remain unconvinced. If only we could keep Ruben fit he'd make a huge difference straight away.

Edited February 19, 20206 yr by Spiller86

7 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

I think the thing with SMS is he sounds great on paper. 190cm+ good goalscoring record but when you watch him he is not overly... dynamic. He just sort of strolls around but without that burst of pace that Ruben has.

You watch him and think you should be ragdolling everyone and just dominating. But he doesn't. Nice bits here and there but in watching Lazio he doesn't take games by the scruff. For his price I remain unconvinced. If only we could keep Ruben fit he'd make a huge difference straight away.

For me it would be somewhat like when we had a tall presence in midfield, like a mix of Ballack and Matic, good defensivly and in transition but also a good first touch, good technique and good in the final third. He can through small spaces but also he may use his body to protect the ball at any time, he lacks some pace due to his height but he's still all over the pitch and is capable of doing most things at a high level like an almost complete central midfielder.

On 19/02/2020 at 21:08, Spiller86 said:

I think the thing with SMS is he sounds great on paper. 190cm+ good goalscoring record but when you watch him he is not overly... dynamic. He just sort of strolls around but without that burst of pace that Ruben has.

You watch him and think you should be ragdolling everyone and just dominating. But he doesn't. Nice bits here and there but in watching Lazio he doesn't take games by the scruff. For his price I remain unconvinced. If only we could keep Ruben fit he'd make a huge difference straight away.

I like SMS but he isnt the most mobile player. i dont see him playing in a 2 man midfield in the premier league, so with Ziyech, RLC, and mount, i think we are pretty stacked in that position.

Saul would be great, i think he has a reasonable buy out clause aswell, but i think its a non starter unless Atletico finish outside top 4, which isnt impossible. 

Maybe Fabian Ruiz could be a realistic alternative, similar profile to Saul.

Think SMS would be a mistake. He is undoubtedly talented but inconsistent, may not have the best attitude... and has Kezman for an agent.

13 hours ago, big blue said:

I like SMS but he isnt the most mobile player. i dont see him playing in a 2 man midfield in the premier league, so with Ziyech, RLC, and mount, i think we are pretty stacked in that position.

Saul would be great, i think he has a reasonable buy out clause aswell, but i think its a non starter unless Atletico finish outside top 4, which isnt impossible. 

Maybe Fabian Ruiz could be a realistic alternative, similar profile to Saul.

I agree. He just sort of floats in and out of games a bit too much for me and he isn't overly mobile. 

Saúl would strengthen our midfield immensely. He is capable of playing anywhere and that has left him as a fix it player for Simeone rather than someone who you build your midfield around. Hence his unhappiness and up and down form. He's the best option but I think that it is a long long shot.

Fabian I like a lot and wanted here when he left Betis. Sadly ADL rinsed us for Jorginho and then bought an upgrade. Left footed and tall. If he filled out a bit he could be a real PL asset. 

Anyway we can dream. Neither wil realistically happen. 

39 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

I agree. He just sort of floats in and out of games a bit too much for me and he isn't overly mobile. 

Saúl would strengthen our midfield immensely. He is capable of playing anywhere and that has left him as a fix it player for Simeone rather than someone who you build your midfield around. Hence his unhappiness and up and down form. He's the best option but I think that it is a long long shot.

Fabian I like a lot and wanted here when he left Betis. Sadly ADL rinsed us for Jorginho and then bought an upgrade. Left footed and tall. If he filled out a bit he could be a real PL asset. 

Anyway we can dream. Neither wil realistically happen. 

Saul got a lot of praise after the Liverpool match, can he also shoot well?

4 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

Saul got a lot of praise after the Liverpool match, can he also shoot well?

Was top scorer in the Euro u21s a few years back playing as a midfielder.

Seems to be used in a more withdrawn role at Atletico so doesn't score lots but has an odd habit of scoring in big games. Hence naturally the goal against Liverpool.

Best thing about him is his mentality. Simeone dogs of war stuff. Covers every blade of grass, sacrifices and defends for the team. He is almost un-Spanish like in that regard. Far more English box to box. Left footed too. He'd be a smash hit if he ever moved to England.

On 18/02/2020 at 19:12, Nibs said:

That last bit is the crunch. If he is supposed to be the last line of cover before the defence, no wonder we are leaking so many goals. Good players go past him with ease. Last night, the United sub making his debut and had only just come on nearly scored (but for a good save by Willy) and that was down to Jorginho.

When Jorginho is good I like him and he does take an excellent penalty but he's one of these luxury players and when he's bad he's a liability. 

No Nibs, you are biased and making it all up. The stats prove he is a great tackler and rarely losses possession. 

If you look hard enough you will find a stat that shows he is faster than Usain Bolt over the first six inches. That proves he has pace.

Stats prove everything.

1 hour ago, just said:

No Nibs, you are biased and making it all up. The stats prove he is a great tackler and rarely losses possession. 

If you look hard enough you will find a stat that shows he is faster than Usain Bolt over the first six inches. That proves he has pace.

Stats prove everything.

What are you on about just? Stats do prove everything. Look at these for example. Kante in his proper position v Jorginho.

More tackles? More interceptions? Well obviously. But what's this, his passing percentage is the same? But Kante couldn't possibly play the deepest midfield role and build up the play because his passing isn't good enough. 

Edited February 22, 20206 yr by Spiller86

7 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

What are you on about just? Stats do prove everything. Look at these for example. Kante in his proper position v Jorginho.

More tackles? More interceptions? Well obviously. But what's this, his passing percentage is the same? But Kante couldn't possibly play the deepest midfield role and build up the play because his passing isn't good enough. 

I think what @just is saying is that Gol15 is using stats as the be all end all when it comes to Jorginho. I think Jorginho is having a good season myself, but I also thought he was poor last game, according to people like Gol15 Jorginho can't have a poor game. I don't think he disagrees with your argument on Kante vs Jorginho, I don't think anyone possibly could except for Gol15. 

 

In the right setup and players around him he's superb, orchestrated it again today. 

Please keep the Kova-Jorginho midfield. 

Edited February 22, 20206 yr by Slojo

1 minute ago, Slojo said:

In the right setup and players around him he's superb, orchestrated it again today. 

Please keep the Kova-Jorginho midfield. 

Indeed. He has some unique attributes - wonderful pass for the first goal and so much more. On the setup, yes and I mentioned on the match thread that the physical deficiencies matter much less when the team is clicking. 

10 minutes ago, Dean said:

Indeed. He has some unique attributes - wonderful pass for the first goal and so much more. On the setup, yes and I mentioned on the match thread that the physical deficiencies matter much less when the team is clicking. 

A lot of people who talk about his physical abilities are the same people who think players like Viera and Keane would be playing at top level today, they wouldn't, not even our own Dennis Wise. The game has moved on now, players fall over and half the time they get rewarded for it. I don't like it but that's the way it is. Pep doesn't play with box to box strong physical players in the middle, does he? And he's one of the most successful coaches in the world, certainly the most successful in the past 10 years, at Barca he had Xavi and Busquets sitting deep, at Bayern it was Xabi and Martinez, now at City he's brought in Rodrigo who certainly isn't a physical player by any means. This is the reason why managers like Jose Mourinho are rapidly falling behind, Mourinho still rates players like Eric Dier when they could've been good players about 15 years ago. 

Jorginho is a fantastic player, a lot of his technical attributes make up for his lack of pace, I don't think we should be offloading him any time soon at all. 

 

Edited February 22, 20206 yr by Slojo

On 18/02/2020 at 19:47, Spiller86 said:

Works fine for France.

I think there has been an illusion created in the past decade based largely on Busquets that you need to have a DM who is good on the ball to drop deep play out from the back.

Truth is that you can build up through the fullbacks or through rotation in mdifield (this is what we did in Jose's second stint) sometimes being reliant on a single player in build up is limiting. As we saw plenty last season teams would block Jorginho and we'd be f**ked. 

Kante would be fine receiving the ball. He is much better than anyone gives him credit for. Frank's insistence on not using him at the base is one of his two key personnel mistakes this year. The other is not playing Giroud and Pedro.

Kante played sitting DM in Euro16 and was dropped and he also did it for Conte's first six games and Antonio changed the system.

The Arsenal game at The Emirates for Ozil's goal demonstrates the downfalls of playing Kante there, whenever his proactive nature doesn't get him the ball we would be wide open for counters, even more so than we are at times now.