20 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

I am all for people questioning Lampards decision making such as Werner being played on the wing despite him being woefully out of form, sticking with 4-3-3 even though we've been struggling lately with that formation however asking him to resign or get sacked is just ludicrous. 

Lampard has a lot of credit in the bank for me not just as a player but also as a manager due to how he sheparded us through the transfer ban by integrating the youth and getting us top 4. In addition we are the one club who should know that all Managers regardless of how experienced or elite they may be that they have areas of limitations which are especially exposed during a rough patch, are we going to chop and change every time the going gets tough. 

The one thing Lampard has shown is that he is flexible tactically as he has changed his preferred formation on a few occasions depending on how players have been performing, the team he played today was arguably the strongest he could've played with the exception of Centre forward, RW & RCM. RW will be assigned to Ziyech once he is back and CF in my opinion is a toss up between Tammy and Giroud, Werner needs to work himself into some form to be in with a shout but the interesting position is the RCM because it will determine whether we stick with 4-3-3 or shift to 4-2-3-1 and move Kai behind the striker. 

Tactics aside I think Lampards biggest challenge is to help the players mentally and if they are going through a tough phase to help them through it. I think the best thing for Lampard could be to maybe bring in a more experienced number 2, it feels like both Lampard and Morris are learning on the job and it would help Lampard to maybe bring in someone a little more experienced to assist through these tough patches.

To be fair I meant that if Frank feels the end of his limitations and feels the sack is coming I would rather he resign than be sacked.

When was the last time we beat a so-called big team?  Probably City at home after Project Restart.  Looking at this season, against Arsenal, Wolves, Everton, Spurs and Liverpool we only managed 3 shots on target each game.  Against Spurs 1.

The midfield balance is so far off.  None of them are a goal threat, and in a 4-3-3 that isn't going to work.  I rate Kova, but honestly he's just sitting there comfortable and offering very little.  Kante is a workhorse but can't do it all.  Mount, well one goal in 15 games, although better than his peers, shows the problem.  We can't play vertically through a team, as well, we aren't good enough technically to do so.  But we aren't very effective at crossing either as our crosses are soft and floaty from deep.  We never get in behind a full back and push for the byline.

Then the forwards - Tammy is not a top four striker.  Simple as, good squad player.  Werner - well I'm not even sure what he is attempting to do now.  Giroud for his great finishing and determination changes the character of how we play, and we haven't got out of this pattern yet.

Pains me to say it, but this team is not developing at all.  We are actually getting worse, and the anxiety and pressure is not being handled well but what is quite a fragile group of players.  Take Silva, Giroud, Pulisic, James or Dave out the team and I don't see a whole lot of character there.

We have become a team of highs and lows.  Fun moments, but the lows set us so far back we can never dig out of the hole.  I'm disgusted by the softness that has crept in over recent years - if a team is willing to match or exceed Chelsea's effort, then they normally get the result.  We have a group that feels all they have to do is turn up.  Sorry boys, but you aren't that good, so you actually need to compensate with more hard work!

Edited December 27, 20205 yr by PhilH930

12 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

To be fair I meant that if Frank feels the end of his limitations and feels the sack is coming I would rather he resign than be sacked.

I can't see Lampard resigning voluntarily, I can see the board asking him to resign rather then sacking him which would basically be a sacking. 

Just now, Imran_CFC said:

I can't see Lampard resigning voluntarily, I can see the board asking him to resign rather then sacking him which would basically be a sacking. 

If any Chelsea manager was willing to resign if they felt they could not help the team improve, it would be Frank. As a Chelsea man you know today hurt him as badly as it hurt us.

5 hours ago, axman2526 said:

For those asking about who next since Poch is off to PSG. I think those rumours are true from the summer and Max Allergi is the one Roman will line up.

Be real stella football to watch then.

Allegro would be an awful choice imo. His playing style doesn’t suit the players we have on our team.

Just now, Frankie8Lampard said:

Allegro would be an awful choice imo. His playing style doesn’t suit the players we have on our team.

Would mean more investment to play terrible football.

39 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

I think it would be absolutely ridiculous if we sack him next few weeks! It was only a few weeks ago we were on a 17 game unbeaten streak.

Things aren’t looking great right now but stay calm, we’ll get better and Frank is here to stay.

I envy how you can be optimistic after a performance and result like that. But I just can't see it, if we can play that bad against such a sh*te side, there's truly no hope this team can be title challengers under Frank. 

It's happening again, last season it was all going great until November and we hit a slump, it's the same once again this season. Because realistically, this is our November given the one month delay this season. It's just not good enough, and I don't see the evidence for how that can be turned around. This is a results business, I don't think we should sack Frank given the fixtures we've got coming up. But the board right now should be aiming to make a replacement and shortlisting the best available managers that can utilise this group of players to their best ability. 

No way on this earth should we be losing to a side like that with the players we have, absolutely no way, but it's happened. People talk about Klopp and Pep in their first years in the PL, but Klopp and Pep were already proven winners and built World Class teams, Lampard started management just over two years ago and hasn't won anything, and given the recent performances it's starting to make sense. 

I'm not going to pretend that other managers haven't had bad spells here, like Conte or Mourinho, but they still won things. With the team that we have, there's no way we should be playing this badly or losing the games we are, we have to be doing better. 

4 minutes ago, PhilH930 said:

When was the last time we beat a so-called big team?  Probably City at home after Project Restart.  Looking at this season, against Arsenal, Wolves, Everton, Spurs and Liverpool we only managed 3 shots on target each game.  Against Spurs 1.

The midfield balance is so far off.  None of them are a goal threat, and in a 4-3-3 that isn't going to work.  I rate Kova, but honestly he's just sitting there comfortable and offering very little.  Kante is a workhorse but can't do it all.  Mount, well one goal in 15 games, although better than his peers, shows the problem.  We can't play vertically through a team, as well, we aren't good enough technically to do so.  But we aren't very effective at crossing either as our crosses are soft and floaty from deep.  We never get in behind a full back and push for the byline.

Then the forwards - Tammy is not a top four striker.  Simple as, good squad player.  Werner - well I'm not even sure what he is attempting to do now.  Giroud for his great finishing and determination changes the character of how we play, and we haven't got out of this pattern yet.

Pains me to say it, but this team is not developing at all.  We are actually getting worse, and the anxiety and pressure is not being handled well but what is quite a fragile group of players.  Take Silva, Giroud, Pulisic, James or Dave out the team and I don't see a whole lot of character there.

Mounts performances have been far better and more consistent in Comparison to last year, Reece James has improved significantly and pushed Azpi out of the starting lineup, Zouma has nailed down a CB spot and has been a giant aerially, Kante has been operating at his own lofty standards again and we appear to be a completely different team at set pieces. 

There has clearly been development in comparison to last year, we still have a young team and therefore consistency is still a big challenge for some of the young lads. 

4 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

Allegro would be an awful choice imo. His playing style doesn’t suit the players we have on our team.

I agree, I think he would be an awful choice. We still need a progressive manager, but a proven one who's actually won things. 

5 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

If any Chelsea manager was willing to resign if they felt they could not help the team improve, it would be Frank. As a Chelsea man you know today hurt him as badly as it hurt us.

I see Lampard as a fighting man and he would rather get sacked and try everything rather then throw in the towel. 

I personally feel we need a more experienced number 2 rather than replacing Frank. 

 

Just now, Slojo said:

I agree, I think he would be an awful choice. We still need a progressive manager, but a proven one who's actually won things. 

Such as?

3 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I envy how you can be optimistic after a performance and result like that. But I just can't see it, if we can play that bad against such a sh*te side, there's truly no hope this team can be title challengers under Frank. 

It is damming. We have lost to poor teams under successful managers before but something feels different about this one. Frank clearly took this very personally.

Just now, axman2526 said:

Such as?

Zidane. 

I think what annoys me most is why are we dead set on 4-3-3? Is like Sarri levels of ridgeness. Last season Frank changed tactics to suit who we played or who we had available. So why stick with 4-3-3 with no wingers fit?

3 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Zidane. 

Not sure he would quote real for us. He is very much ingrained at that club.

The loss to Arsenal is the most disappointed I've felt since Frank became head coach.

It's hard to reconcile that we lost to an Arsenal team that hadn't recorded a home victory in over two months and are in the worst state they've been in decades.

Almost felt like the perfect storm in a strange way, and you could sense it was coming despite there being no logic to it pre-match.

Frank is nearly halfway through his 3-year contract, so it's as good as any time to evaluate his tenure thus far and assess what he needs to do to keep improving the team.

6 minutes ago, Jezz said:

The loss to Arsenal is the most disappointed I've felt since Frank became head coach.

It's hard to reconcile that we lost to an Arsenal team that hadn't recorded a home victory in over two months and are in the worst state they've been in decades.

Almost felt like the perfect storm in a strange way, and you could sense it was coming despite there being no logic to it pre-match.

Frank is nearly halfway through his 3-year contract, so it's as good as any time to evaluate his tenure thus far and assess what he needs to do to keep improving the team.

The most dissapointed I've been with Frank has come against Arsenal all 3 times. The 2-2 game was embarrassing on every front, they had 10 men for about 80 minutes, I didn't think anything could top that but low and behold we do it again in a much worse fashion. The F.A. Cup I felt like it was a right bottlejob, they had big help from the referee and injuries on our side but still, it was a bottle job. This has just about topped it, they must f**king love Lampard. 

6 minutes ago, Slojo said:

The most dissapointed I've been with Frank has come against Arsenal all 3 times. The 2-2 game was embarrassing on every front, they had 10 men for about 80 minutes, I didn't think anything could top that but low and behold we do it again in a much worse fashion. The F.A. Cup I felt like it was a right bottlejob, they had big help from the referee and injuries on our side but still, it was a bottle job. This has just about topped it, they must f**king love Lampard. 

This is bottom of the Arsenal 3 for me. At home against 10 men was more humiliating. Then there was the cup final, by far the worst to miss out on the trophy. Both of those I was confident in a win and shocked when we did not. This one I felt coming when I saw the line up and rushing back the fullbacks. No surprise James gave away a pen. 

Edited December 27, 20205 yr by axman2526

Lose to Villa and City and Frank might well be sacked. That is the reality. When we were closing on December I looked at the fixtures and it looked worrying but I would have never thought we struggle this bad. 

If you try and look at it positively Frank wins the next two the crisis is over. 

We have the personnel to win this league. There is no hiding behind that fact. Even if you exclude young Havertz we have the quality. 

For me one of the worrying sights were to see Mount's face in the second half. When we went 3-0 down he looked absolutely shocked and in disgust. He couldn't believe his team was that bad. It almost looked he wanted to shout to our players to wake up and do something. 

Massive couple of game's for Frank. Think about it. A club legend as a player and then a bit surprisingly you take the managers job and second season in you are this close of being sacked. 

1 hour ago, Imran_CFC said:

I see Lampard as a fighting man and he would rather get sacked and try everything rather then throw in the towel. 

I personally feel we need a more experienced number 2 rather than replacing Frank. 

 

That is a good shout.  Something has to change though - I am concerned by the pattern we are seeing that I don't think the players have the belief or mental strength to dig out of this.  We were spoiled in years gone by with experienced pros like Cech, Terry, Cole, Lamps, Ballack, Drogba that could all dig in.

Good points above also regarding where we have progressed.  I don't dispute that, but for all that progress, and £200M+ investment, we are four points worse off than last season.  Sure its a funny season, but judged against ourselves, we are statistically regressing.

5 minutes ago, evissy said:

Lose to Villa and City and Frank might well be sacked. That is the reality. When we were closing on December I looked at the fixtures and it looked worrying but I would have never thought we struggle this bad. 

If you try and look at it positively Frank wins the next two the crisis is over. 

We have the personnel to win this league. There is no hiding behind that fact. Even if you exclude young Havertz we have the quality. 

For me one of the worrying sights were to see Mount's face in the second half. When we went 3-0 down he looked absolutely shocked and in disgust. He couldn't believe his team was that bad. It almost looked he wanted to shout to our players to wake up and do something. 

Massive couple of game's for Frank. Think about it. A club legend as a player and then a bit surprisingly you take the managers job and second season in you are this close of being sacked. 

Anybody who comes through the academy should feel that way. They should feel the club in their bones.

Plus think of it this way, what chance do you think Mount, James, Tammy, CHO, Gilmour etc will have with a foreign manager who may well never have heard of them. Their Chelsea careers would likely be over so they need to be pulling up trees.

For example were Allergi in charge of us I could see him playing:

 

Kepa

 

Christensen

Silva

Rudiger

 

Azpi

Jorginho

Kovacic

Alonso

 

Havertz

 

Giroud

Werner

My knee jerk reaction is Lampard is just way too inexperienced and raw for a job like Chelsea, regardless how much love we have for him or how much we want him to succeed. This year is that much harder, more players and options available, higher expectation, and he's just not keeping up with it. The last 3 away games we came up against teams short on forms, and somehow each game we started off like the worse team, and not matching up in terms of effort. Lampard could blame individual all he wants, but he must do better in terms of match preparation, and make sure they players are in the mood. That's every manager's bread and butter, and he's been poor for weeks now. With better players at disposal, last year's excuses of not taking our chances, injuries, or the individual mistakes can no longer be used everytime things go south. You signed a big name striker, use him properly, or at least have the balls to bench him and use other options. Every team has injuries, we can't just put the lose on Ziyech or Pullisic not there. Is he and his coaching team make players better? I think it's debatable to say the least. Realistically, do we anticipate any signing next month that will turn our fortune around? I doubt it. As a team, we seems to go to the right direction for a few weeks or month, then the slump and not being able to get out of it, and the man driving the bus looks pretty clueless in recent weeks. Unlike last season, with so many teams within points of each other, I doubt we will get into the top 4 unless something dramatic happens. Sure Klopp had some tough couple of years, but the man's been managing title winning team in Germany, so hardly his first rodeo. Meanwhile, Lampard is learning the trade on the job, as much as we love him, we can't afford another year of learning curve.

Just now, axman2526 said:

Anybody who comes through the academy should feel that way. They should feel the club in their bones.

Plus think of it this way, what chance do you think Mount, James, Tammy, CHO, Gilmour etc will have with a foreign manager who may well never have heard of them. Their Chelsea careers would likely be over so they need to be pulling up trees.

For example were Allergi in charge of us I could see him playing:

 

Kepa

 

Christensen

Silva

Rudiger

 

Azpi

Jorginho

Kovacic

Alonso

 

Havertz

 

Giroud

Werner

I think a top foreign manager would be able to recognize the quality of James, Mount, Chilwell and Pulisic.  That team you plotted should never take the field!

4 minutes ago, PhilH930 said:

I think a top foreign manager would be able to recognize the quality of James, Mount, Chilwell and Pulisic.  That team you plotted should never take the field!

Agreed but I can see Allergi picking it. Well maybe Mendy instead of Kepa but players like Alonso, kovacic and Jorginho are well thought of in Italy.

1 hour ago, Imran_CFC said:

I see Lampard as a fighting man and he would rather get sacked and try everything rather then throw in the towel. 

I personally feel we need a more experienced number 2 rather than replacing Frank. 

 

Fair point of view. With that being the case I would prefer the club backs him for the remainder of his current deal. Do not look to renew his contract but see what happens over the next 18 months. If results dont improve simply dont renew his deal and say we are thankful for his efforts but want to go in a different direction.That would be the best way to part if need be. 

Most probably wont agree but I can accept the risk of this carrying on for 18 months to give Lamps his full 3 years to get it right. Then even us most staunchest Lampard defenders could not argue with letting him go if we are still suffering this same way.

Frank has said he clearly warned the players before the match that they will need to match them for workrate and energy. Warned them about it being a London derby, haven’t won in ages etc and said the players must take responsibility. 
 

There’s no energy in this team. Yesterday, you saw that when we actually started to press them, we created things and almost scored 2 goals.