In regards his best position i'm not too sure either. Seems to be a player similar to Muller at Bayern, who he too i wouldn't be able to tell you where he plays? Just give them freedom and let them create or finish chances i guess. Tuchel doesn't seem to offer such a role in his well drilled systems.

2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

In regards his best position i'm not too sure either. Seems to be a player similar to Muller at Bayern, who he too i wouldn't be able to tell you where he plays? Just give them freedom and let them create or finish chances i guess. Tuchel doesn't seem to offer such a role in his well drilled systems.

The front three aren't staying in any one position. I'm surprised at the number of times Lukaku is occupying a wide right position when he's played for us. 

Mount, Ziyech and Havertz have popped up in central midfield positions, wingers, centre forwards, second strikers. They've tracked back into fullback positions if the wingback gets caught upfield. 

Which is my longwinded way of saying, it doesn't really matter what Havertz best position is because at the moment in any one games he's playing in 4 or 5 different ones. 

Teams shut down anyone that goes a bit wide, our players are pretty isolated there and the only option in most times is to pass the ball back since both Kai and Mount have a player on their back while our full-backs aren't making any runs but are staying around our half. Pretty sure it's a tactical reason why both Kai and Mount are having quiet games, my guess is that the team is still getting used to Lukaku being the target man, he has scored already around 4 goals in total so clearly we're building around Lukaku at the moment.

Even with the 3:0 win I wasn't that far off from thinking that the match might end in the draw, after all our goals were scored by 2 defenders and after a huge deflection from a shot that came from outside of the box so just a few details went in our favor, mainly the individual quality pushed us through.

Edited September 20, 20214 yr by Gol15

3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Teams shut down anyone that goes a bit wide, our players are pretty isolated there and the only option in most times is to pass the ball back since both Kai and Mount have a player on their back while our full-backs aren't making any runs but are staying around our half. Pretty sure it's a tactical reason why both Kai and Mount are having quiet games, my guess is that the team is still getting used to Lukaku being the target man, he has scored already around 4 goals in total so clearly we're building around Lukaku at the moment.

Even with the 3:0 win I wasn't that far off from thinking that the match might end in the draw, after all our goals were scored by 2 defenders and after a huge deflection from a shot that came from outside of the box so just a few details went in our favor, mainly the individual quality pushed us through.

I agree. It's because our teams are filled with versatile players that are not afraid to take a chance to shoot. Clinicality is another issue entirely but we are braver this time around. 

It's a huge difference when we have 9 goalscorers this season apart from Lukaku.

On 20/09/2021 at 14:57, ForeverCarefree said:

The front three aren't staying in any one position. I'm surprised at the number of times Lukaku is occupying a wide right position when he's played for us. 

Mount, Ziyech and Havertz have popped up in central midfield positions, wingers, centre forwards, second strikers. They've tracked back into fullback positions if the wingback gets caught upfield. 

Which is my longwinded way of saying, it doesn't really matter what Havertz best position is because at the moment in any one games he's playing in 4 or 5 different ones. 

Playing in 4 or 5 positions and drifting through games at the moment and the majority of last season. All players have a preferred role though in a team, i'd be interested to see where Havertz thinks his is.

22 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Playing in 4 or 5 positions and drifting through games at the moment and the majority of last season. All players have a preferred role though in a team, i'd be interested to see where Havertz thinks his is.

He'd probably say playing as a #10 which seems to be the go to answer every attacking midifeld gives because they like to be given the freedom to go wherever the want. 

Fairly sure this was the case with Mata and Joe Cole. But ultimately you've got to do the job that asked of you for the benefit of the team. 

At the moment Havertz has flashes of showing quality but they're few and far between at the moment and I don't think he's doing enough to try and influence the outcome of games. 

He isn't taking on many shots or trying many overly difficuly passes. 

As you say he drifting through a lot of games at the moment. I think he needs to start showing more self confidence and take on a lot more responsibility in the final third. 

15 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

He'd probably say playing as a #10 which seems to be the go to answer every attacking midifeld gives because they like to be given the freedom to go wherever the want. 

Fairly sure this was the case with Mata and Joe Cole. But ultimately you've got to do the job that asked of you for the benefit of the team. 

At the moment Havertz has flashes of showing quality but they're few and far between at the moment and I don't think he's doing enough to try and influence the outcome of games. 

He isn't taking on many shots or trying many overly difficuly passes. 

As you say he drifting through a lot of games at the moment. I think he needs to start showing more self confidence and take on a lot more responsibility in the final third. 

He's in the same boat as Werner, CHO, Pulisic and Ziyech - Not consistently doing enough. Could add Mount to that list as well.

He looks like a waste of money.

44 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

He looks like a waste of money.

Bit extreme. But he's been pretty underwhelming so far this season. I wouldn't mind but he's not even showing flashes of nice play at the moment. 

 

Just not showing enough like a number of others, acknowledge it's a long season and form does dip, but he's not carrying his weight.

I knew the excuses last season wouldn't be proven right this season. Just looks completely average. Nothing special about him at all. If Kepa was a dud, then so is he. He only gets a pass for the CL final goal. 

I've seen enough to know his future is promising and trust me when I say we're better it's with us than another team mark these words. We don't  want to sell players that score in ucl finals, we don't need another Salah or KDB. 

Listen for me all he's missing is a bt more strength if he bulks up a bit more he will find it much easier to succeed in the prem. he gets barged off the ball too often and needs to work on guarding it better. At least he tries to dribble and make intricate plays in around the box unlike some who just pass side to side with very little penetration.

At least he's trying to score a header for us in the dying minutes yeah it didn't come off but these are th players you want in your team.

It's been said that Kai is a bit of a reverse Fabergas in that rather than starting fast and slowly burning out as the season goes on and dying off by January, Kai is the complete opposite. He can start a season slowly and then burst into life in the second half of the campaign.

He's done it at Bayern (most recently his last season there) and he did it for us again last season (Covid could have played a part). Judge Kai after the season has finished I'm sure he's still got some magic moments to come this campaign.

Cannot compare Kai to KDB. Had KDB been given as many chances and playing time as Kai, he would still be a Chelsea player as he would've shown his talent. Kai has been given so much playing time to prove his transfer fee and shown very little for it in the vast majority of games.

Also how good does this look?! The 2012 ucl anniversary kit is said to be black and gold and they've done a mock up. I think this is spicy

16 minutes ago, KonaKai Blue said:

Cannot compare Kai to KDB. Had KDB been given as many chances and playing time as Kai, he would still be a Chelsea player as he would've shown his talent. Kai has been given so much playing time to prove his transfer fee and shown very little for it in the vast majority of games.

Not including penalties Kai scored 9 goals and assisted 5. I think officially he was credited with 7 assists. For a 21 year old that's not amazing but, its certainly not awful in a debut season with Covid.

The point I'm making and that's why it is fair to compare him to KDB and Salah is that we didn't know how good those players could become and we don't know now how good Kai could be. What we do know is we need to be more patient with our youngsters rather than shipping them off because they are too inconsistent or not 'Chelsea' quality.

Say what you want about the lad but, he's scored the most important goal for us in the last 9 seasons. He has 1 goal in the UCL and it just happens to be the winning goal, let's not under value a UCL final goal.

Short list of players that have scored in UCL finals off the top of my head I'll go somewhat recently (Messi, CR7, Drogba, Lamps, Bale, Salah, Mane,  Benzema, Neymar, Gundogan,  Robben and the list goes on and on).

This is elite company, finals are always meant to be tight affairs since they are contested by the best two teams of that season, to score and win is a legacy. Now he must build upon this and I back him to do so.

Modest 1st season, yet legendary all the same. 

Edited September 29, 20214 yr by LongtimerLurker

32 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Not including penalties Kai scored 9 goals and assisted 5. I think officially he was credited with 7 assists. For a 21 year old that's not amazing but, its certainly not awful in a debut season with Covid.

The point I'm making and that's why it is fair to compare him to KDB and Salah is that we didn't know how good those players could become and we don't know now how good Kai could be. What we do know is we need to be more patient with our youngsters rather than shipping them off because they are too inconsistent or not 'Chelsea' quality.

Say what you want about the lad but, he's scored the most important goal for us in the last 9 seasons. He has 1 goal in the UCL and it just happens to be the winning goal, let's not under value a UCL final goal.

Short list of players that have scored in UCL finals off the top of my head I'll go somewhat recently (Messi, CR7, Drogba, Lamps, Bale, Salah, Mane,  Benzema, Neymar, Gundogan,  Robben and the list goes on and on).

This is elite company, finals are always meant to be tight affairs since they are contested by the best two teams of that season, to score and win is a legacy. Now he must build upon this and I back him to do so.

Modest 1st season, yet legendary all the same. 

That's the only reason why I cannot be overly critical, the winning goal in the biggest final but aside from that, I just cannot see the hype.

Salah was always a goal threat and showed us a thing or two in Europe (hence us signing him). To be honest I never knew he would turn out this good.

KDB is different. I instantly knew he had the talent and potential from when he played against us for Genk. Also we had Hazard and and it was clear to see that Belgium had a generation of talent. The only person that never gave KDB a chance and wrote him off was Jose. The fans didn't even get a chance to see him play enough to come to the conclusion that he was not good enough.

I hope I'm wrong obviously, but I only got excited about Havertz purely from the hype. I never knew about him before he was linked with us. 

10 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Bit extreme. But he's been pretty underwhelming so far this season. I wouldn't mind but he's not even showing flashes of nice play at the moment. 

 

Is it though? Take away the price tag and the hype he has been very average, people will live on his goal in the CL final. He is a slow starter etc like this is some sort of valid excuse. You cant afford slow starts in the season otherwise you are playing catch up straight away.

When i watch up him play i struggle to see what he does well.

He shouldn’t be starting at the moment, I’m not really sure how he managed to stay on the pitch for the full 90 mins last night either.

He had an excellent CL final and a handful of other good performances but in the main I’m nearly always underwhelmed watching him play.  

34 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Is it though? Take away the price tag and the hype he has been very average, people will live on his goal in the CL final. He is a slow starter etc like this is some sort of valid excuse. You cant afford slow starts in the season otherwise you are playing catch up straight away.

When i watch up him play i struggle to see what he does well.

That is the biggest worry concern for me. What exactly that he do well for that makes him stand out as an attacking player?  Timo is is dogmess for the most part but I can instantly see what he does well and brings to the team. When we signed Hazard, straight away from the City and Wigan game you knew what he had in his locker. With Kai I don't see anything. In fact I see more of what he doesn't do well and that lazy style without doing anything effective makes it more frustrating.

Had we never signed Havertz and put faith in RLC who put in those exact performances from last season until now (CL final goal aside), we would all be clamouring for the club to sign a better attacking mid in the next transfer window.

I feel like Kai is an interesting one because he's clearly a very talented footballer, but my question is where should he be playing? At Leverkusen he was a roaming 10, reminds me a bit of Juan Mata in his time for us, but we can't really accommodate that type of player in the system we are playing at the moment. I want him to succeed here and I think he can, but at the minute his attributes are not effective for us, which leaves us with a dilemma. Personally I would love to see us go back to a 4-2-3-1 with Kai playing No. 10 and Werner and Mount either side of him, but TT clearly doesnt think our defenders are up to playing in a back 4, which is understandable. 

14 minutes ago, KonaKai Blue said:

That is the biggest worry concern for me. What exactly that he do well for that makes him stand out as an attacking player?  Timo is is dogmess for the most part but I can instantly see what he does well and brings to the team. When we signed Hazard, straight away from the City and Wigan game you knew what he had in his locker. With Kai I don't see anything. In fact I see more of what he doesn't do well and that lazy style without doing anything effective makes it more frustrating.

When he gets the ball he cant wait to give it simple, Ross Barkley did more when he came on, Ross Barkley!.

He gets pushed off the ball easily, cant dribble past a player, doesnt create, gives it simple alot, doesnt shoot much, decent work rate. A handful of good games he has had.

13 minutes ago, RMCM said:

I feel like Kai is an interesting one because he's clearly a very talented footballer, but my question is where should he be playing? At Leverkusen he was a roaming 10, reminds me a bit of Juan Mata in his time for us, but we can't really accommodate that type of player in the system we are playing at the moment. I want him to succeed here and I think he can, but at the minute his attributes are not effective for us, which leaves us with a dilemma. Personally I would love to see us go back to a 4-2-3-1 with Kai playing No. 10 and Werner and Mount either side of him, but TT clearly doesnt think our defenders are up to playing in a back 4, which is understandable. 

Not sure about that. Was a 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 not the preferred formation under Lampard ? If anything I thought he looked worse playing in that system.

Werner and Mount also looked lost on the wings under Frank and have looked infinitely better in this formation under Tuchel, so I don’t think changing the formation is the solution. 

I have said this at the start of last season, we should build our team around Havertz that should have the freedom to be around the middle of the pitch. This is where he is at his best, no coincidence that as a false 9 he was also more effective because he drops deep and is still around that same area. 

I said this in regards to Lampard and I can repeat it now for Tuchel, why is Kai being used as a player that should just work it out in any position, like for example playing on the left side of the pitch now as well and not in the middle or as an inside forward on the right side where he did play a little bit for Leverkusen? He is being wasted, I saw yesterday he started on the left side and he rotated to the right side to try to make something happen while Ziyech faded away, that's Tuchel trying to accommodate Ziyech and it didn't work.

OGS is not a good manager but he did the basic thing when he made the team around Bruno Fernandes that had the freedom from day 1 to do whatever he does best and it saved his job. Tuchel should do  the same with Havertz, play a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1 where Kai is there playing centrally behind the striker.

1 minute ago, Dubair said:

Not sure about that. Was a 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 not the preferred formation under Lampard ? If anything I thought he looked worse playing in that system.

Werner and Mount also looked lost on the wings under Frank and have looked infinitely better in this formation under Tuchel, so I don’t think changing the formation is the solution. 

Lampard was tactically inept though, as much as I love him. Werner plays on the wing for us when he plays most of the time, not all wingers have to play hugging the touchline, narrow wingers and overlapping fullbacks are how Liverpool play and they're a bit more exciting to watch than us.