2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

This.

A lot of people only want to talk about 4231, 442, 343 but that is not the most important thing, it is more important how do you want to attack, how do you want to defend.

 

Build your team around Kai in the middle as the AM/F9 and the attack will be great. Like Ibrahimovic once said something along the lines of you don't buy a Ferrari in order  to drive it like a Fiat.

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

This.

A lot of people only want to talk about 4231, 442, 343 but that is not the most important thing, it is more important how do you want to attack, how do you want to defend.

 

But wouldn’t how you attack or defend depend on the number of attackers and defenders you put on the pitch or also where you ask then to stay positionally.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Build your team around Kai in the middle as the AM/F9 and the attack will be great. Like Ibrahimovic once said something along the lines of you don't buy a Ferrari in order  to drive it like a Fiat.

Have to agree with Ibrah's quote, whether Kai is being played out of position is another question since the two spots behind the striker are supposes to be inside 10 positions so in theory that is his ideal position.

I'm not sure if we have ever actually played Kai in a sole number 10 position the whole time he's been here. I remember under Frank we played a 4231 but, I recall he played on the right. 

Purely focusing on Kai here, and in a way improving our offence, is you decide if you want him to be the focal point of the team or not. 

Barca did with Messi, Real with Ronaldo did too. Kai is that sort of player that needs a team built around him or he is 90% less effective.

So here is what I would like to ask everyone. We have achieved a lot of good structure and success by switching to the back 3. Is this because the system itself is superior to all the others out there, or is it due to our defenders not being good enough without the extra man?

Or to put it another way if we had, in their prime, JT, Ashley Cole, Silva and Ivanovic would you still want to play a back 3?

Pretty sure everyone would say no, play an extra attacker as those guys with Mendy would be better than our current defence with an extra man.

As @Gol15 quoted from Ibra you don't waste talent like we are with Kai. He is not Joe Cole, he is a kaka player. Would you play kaka as a right sided forward with defensive responsibilities? Not if you knew what you were doing.

To get the best out of Kai, we need to overhaul our defence so we have an option to play a back 4 and switch to a 3 as needed. As ideally our midfield and forwards would line up in most games imo with:

 

Kante---Jorginho

 

Mount---Kai----Werner/Pulisic

 

Lukaku

26 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Have to agree with Ibrah's quote, whether Kai is being played out of position is another question since the two spots behind the striker are supposes to be inside 10 positions so in theory that is his ideal position.

I'm not sure if we have ever actually played Kai in a sole number 10 position the whole time he's been here. I remember under Frank we played a 4231 but, I recall he played on the right. 

Lampard played him perfectly for 3 games in a row and he had 2 assists and a goal I think but then he got the virus...

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Lampard played him perfectly for 3 games in a row and he had 2 assists and a goal I think but then he got the virus...

Was that the dual 10s in 433? Basically as an 8

14 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Purely focusing on Kai here, and in a way improving our offence, is you decide if you want him to be the focal point of the team or not. 

Barca did with Messi, Real with Ronaldo did too. Kai is that sort of player that needs a team built around him or he is 90% less effective.

So here is what I would like to ask everyone. We have achieved a lot of good structure and success by switching to the back 3. Is this because the system itself is superior to all the others out there, or is it due to our defenders not being good enough without the extra man?

Or to put it another way if we had, in their prime, JT, Ashley Cole, Silva and Ivanovic would you still want to play a back 3?

Pretty sure everyone would say no, play an extra attacker as those guys with Mendy would be better than our current defence with an extra man.

As @Gol15 quoted from Ibra you don't waste talent like we are with Kai. He is not Joe Cole, he is a kaka player. Would you play kaka as a right sided forward with defensive responsibilities? Not if you knew what you were doing.

To get the best out of Kai, we need to overhaul our defence so we have an option to play a back 4 and switch to a 3 as needed. As ideally our midfield and forwards would line up in most games imo with:

 

Kante---Jorginho

 

Mount---Kai----Werner/Pulisic

 

Lukaku

I'd like to try 4321 I think it suits the squad just as much as 4231. Mount, Ross or Ruben would play deeper alongside any 2 of Kanté, Kovacic and Jorginho.

Then have 2 inside fwds like we currently have Timo, Kai, Pulisic, CHO and on occasions Mount.

Lukaku up top, take away a defender and play an attack minded midfielder to compliment the duo we already have in the pivot. The fullbacks still provide width but rather than having 3 cbs back when we attack we have 2cbs and 1 midfielder like Jorgehh drops in between to make a 3

Edited October 10, 20214 yr by LongtimerLurker

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

This.

A lot of people only want to talk about 4231, 442, 343 but that is not the most important thing, it is more important how do you want to attack, how do you want to defend.

 

Someone gets it. Formations are just there to put people in areas of the pitch where they can have the most impact. 

How the team behaves and move together is the core part that is often overlooked. 

11 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I'd like to try 4321 I think it suits the squad just as much as 4231. Mount, Ross or Ruben would play deeper alongside any 2 of Kanté, Kovacic and Jorginho.

Then have 2 inside fwds like we currently have Timo, Kai, Pulisic, CHO and on occasions Mount.

Lukaku up top, take away a defender and play an attack minded midfielder to compliment the duo we already have in the pivot. The fullbacks still provide width but rather than having 3 cbs back when we attack we have 2cbs and 1 midfielder like Jorgehh drops in between to make a 3

Don't think we can play a back 4 with our current defenders. 

We don't know if Dave can be a pure CB, we already know Rudiger and Christensen are horribly exposed without an extra body. It may work if Silva stays fit and Trev steps up, and we don't use Alonso at LB.

19 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Was that the dual 10s in 433? Basically as an 8

It was in a 4-2-3-1, WBrom,CP, Saints. He won a penalty, assisted and scored in those 3 games in a row while playing the AM, then came Man United game and Lampard played with a back 3 and then he got the virus afterwards.

8 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Don't think we can play a back 4 with our current defenders. 

We don't know if Dave can be a pure CB, we already know Rudiger and Christensen are horribly exposed without an extra body. It may work if Silva stays fit and Trev steps up, and we don't use Alonso at LB.

T.Silva & Christensen can together but Rudiger would struggle the most I feel.

6 hours ago, Bob stark said:

This.

A lot of people only want to talk about 4231, 442, 343 but that is not the most important thing, it is more important how do you want to attack, how do you want to defend.

Indeed. Although personally I am shocked that modern football is more nuanced than fewer players in the backline = more attacking.

11 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Build your team around Kai in the middle as the AM/F9 and the attack will be great. Like Ibrahimovic once said something along the lines of you don't buy a Ferrari in order  to drive it like a Fiat.

Let's say Kai is your guy and play him as no 10 or false 9 done. Now what? 

9 hours ago, Deino said:

Someone gets it. Formations are just there to put people in areas of the pitch where they can have the most impact. 

How the team behaves and move together is the core part that is often overlooked. 

It is extremely rare for team who play formation A and then attack in that formation, they are more of a guide. National team is usually the exception but international tournament football level is just very2 low right now compare to club football that it is irrelevant. 

Let's take city from 2 years ago

Sterling - Aguero - bsilva

Silva - Kdb

Fernaidn

Zinh - 2c - walker 

City settled shape defensively was 451,sometimes 442 if pep asked sterling tonstay higher for transition threat. Offensively it was more of 325

Sterling - Silva - Aguero - Kdb - Silva

Zinc - fernandinho

Cb - cb - Walker 

On paper it is 433, but you barely see 433 at any moment 

 

 

11 hours ago, Jangz said:

But wouldn’t how you attack or defend depend on the number of attackers and defenders you put on the pitch or also where you ask then to stay positionally.

343

Havertz - Lukaku - Mount 

Chilwell - Kante - Jorgi - CHO

Rudi - Chris - Azpi

 

4231

Lukaku 

Havertz - Mount - CHO

Kante - Jorgi 

Chilwell - Rudi - Chris - Azpi

 

I can transform 4231 to 343 shape easily. 

The key in 4231 is now what, let say we want two fb to overlap similar to under lamp. So you will have to defend transition with this 

Kante - Jorginho

Cb - CB

We have seen this under Lamp, it is simply unsustainable. 

 

Edited October 11, 20214 yr by Bob stark

9 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Don't think we can play a back 4 with our current defenders. 

We don't know if Dave can be a pure CB, we already know Rudiger and Christensen are horribly exposed without an extra body. It may work if Silva stays fit and Trev steps up, and we don't use Alonso at LB.

Our problem is not just cb. Defending is all about team effort. You can have two wc cb two wc fb but you play with 0 midfield and lazy attacker, good luck playing defense. 

United defense consist of

Shaw - Maguire - Varane - AWB

Yet, defensive they don't look solid 

 

 

Edited October 11, 20214 yr by Bob stark

2 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Our problem is not just cb. Defending is all about team effort. You can have two wc cb two wc fb but you play with 0 midfield and lazy attacker, good luck playing defense. 

 

 

Yeah you would certainly lose more than you would win. 

However with hardworking forwards and quality midfielders we would do the same. Say if we had Maka alongside Kante, and then Duff, Joe Cole and Mount Behind Drogba and our back 4 was Alonso, Rudiger, Christensen and CHO.

You need the right quality at the back to play a 4 along with the hard work and quality in front to help them and profit together going forward.

44 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Let's say Kai is your guy and play him as no 10 or false 9 done. Now what? 

Now your job as the manager just got a lot easier...

41 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

343

Havertz - Lukaku - Mount 

Chilwell - Kante - Jorgi - CHO

Rudi - Chris - Azpi

 

4231

Lukaku 

Havertz - Mount - CHO

Kante - Jorgi 

Chilwell - Rudi - Chris - Azpi

 

I can transform 4231 to 343 shape easily. 

The key in 4231 is now what, let say we want two fb to overlap similar to under lamp. So you will have to defend transition with this 

Kante - Jorginho

Cb - CB

We have seen this under Lamp, it is simply unsustainable. 

 

Which is where i wouldnt want two overlapping fullbacks - i would rather want one to hold back while the other is going.. also the forward to take responsibility if the full back is overlapping. I would also like to believe the stronger is better than what lamps player with during the majority of his tenure with Lukaku being a major difference. Fundamentally also i believe Tuchel currently is a better manager and should be able to coach transistions and roles/positioning better than Lamps. Which is why we bought him in. 

7 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Yeah you would certainly lose more than you would win. 

However with hardworking forwards and quality midfielders we would do the same. Say if we had Maka alongside Kante, and then Duff, Joe Cole and Mount Behind Drogba and our back 4 was Alonso, Rudiger, Christensen and CHO.

You need the right quality at the back to play a 4 along with the hard work and quality in front to help them and profit together going forward.

You are right, It is always combination of everything.

Let's do a very simple assessment of our team, in 343 so so far we have been very solid defensively, Lukaku lack of pressing hurt us a bit but not really a big problem, the story has been no Kante no midfield. Imagine watching our midfield play and say you know what let's take one of the cb out and play one more attacker, that will help everyone 

 

20 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I'm not sure if we have ever actually played Kai in a sole number 10 position the whole time he's been here. I remember under Frank we played a 4231 but, I recall he played on the right. 

Did he play there against Burnley early last season when he scored his hat trick?

It’s a great problem to have trying to work out how to get the best out of havertz.

 

If Chelsea find a way of having Mount havertz Werner and lukaku all starting then I really believe we’ll see the best of havertz. This is where I see rice being key to this.

 

At the minute if it’s Werner havertz and lukaku as the front three then the midfield seems detached from the attack without Mount. If Werner is replaced with Mount then Werners ability to stretch the play and create space for havertz and Mount is lost. And we saw last season that without lukaku in the team there wasn’t that focal point and clinical edge that he brings. Havertz is strange because out of the four he is the most talented and has the best chance of creating something out of nothing but is the odd one out where if he’s not in the team the team becomes unbalanced. This is without mentioning Ziyech, Pulisic and Hudson Odoi. I think if Chelsea got Declan Rice then it would bring out the best for havertz and Chelsea.

I heard somewhere that West Ham are of the opinion that not only is rice their best midfielder but he’s also their best centre back. If Rice came in and played in defensive midfield with two of Mount, kovacic, kante loftus cheek and maybe Jorginho as 8s in front means that it could be a midfield 3 and a back 4 or a back 3 with a double pivot or even a 4-2-3-1 depending on the phase of play. Jorginho and Chalobah could also play as that position as a mix of cdm and centre back. Mount would be key in linking midfield to attack but hasn’t looked defensively sound as a midfield pivot. The only problem with buying rice is with our current midfield it would he very harsh dropping 2 of Jorginho, Kovacic and Kante. 

havertz and Werner supporting lukaku with Mount linking midfield to attack and Hudson odoi pulisic and ziyech all coming in would be very good going forwards. 
 

It’s very easy to play football manager I guess but for me signing rice would solve a lot of Chelsea’s problems and unleash havertz mercurial talent 

20 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Purely focusing on Kai here, and in a way improving our offence, is you decide if you want him to be the focal point of the team or not. 

Barca did with Messi, Real with Ronaldo did too. Kai is that sort of player that needs a team built around him or he is 90% less effective.

So here is what I would like to ask everyone. We have achieved a lot of good structure and success by switching to the back 3. Is this because the system itself is superior to all the others out there, or is it due to our defenders not being good enough without the extra man?

Or to put it another way if we had, in their prime, JT, Ashley Cole, Silva and Ivanovic would you still want to play a back 3?

Pretty sure everyone would say no, play an extra attacker as those guys with Mendy would be better than our current defence with an extra man.

As @Gol15 quoted from Ibra you don't waste talent like we are with Kai. He is not Joe Cole, he is a kaka player. Would you play kaka as a right sided forward with defensive responsibilities? Not if you knew what you were doing.

To get the best out of Kai, we need to overhaul our defence so we have an option to play a back 4 and switch to a 3 as needed. As ideally our midfield and forwards would line up in most games imo with:

 

Kante---Jorginho

 

Mount---Kai----Werner/Pulisic

 

Lukaku

This makes perfect sense to me and its baffling that Tuchel hasn't even tried this formation even during friendlies.

Mount Werner or Pulisic are extremely hard working. When we defending it becomes 4-4-1-1 so we will still be very solid and hard to break. 

Not to mention that Chilwell and James will benefit from the change aswell. 

I’m going to get absolutely canned for saying this and I know it:

 

doesn’t matter what position you play him, whether you build a team around him or feed him Haribo Starmix whilst caressing his telling slowly whispering ‘you the best player in the whole wide world’… He will never be a world beating, world class player. He’s been absolutely over inflated because he’s performed well in a league where they don’t even know how to spell the word ‘defend’.

 

Im sorry, I just really don’t rate him. I will happily eat my words and I promise that if he does become brilliant, I’ll come back here and admit my wrong haha.

23 minutes ago, thebluekid said:

I’m going to get absolutely canned for saying this and I know it:

 

doesn’t matter what position you play him, whether you build a team around him or feed him Haribo Starmix whilst caressing his telling slowly whispering ‘you the best player in the whole wide world’… He will never be a world beating, world class player. He’s been absolutely over inflated because he’s performed well in a league where they don’t even know how to spell the word ‘defend’.

 

Im sorry, I just really don’t rate him. I will happily eat my words and I promise that if he does become brilliant, I’ll come back here and admit my wrong haha.

By that logic our club had failed the moment we bought anyone from Bundesliga including Pulisic and Werner. Can't just stop at Havertz there.