23 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

I dont remember anyone posting that we should sell him so i dont get why people are mentioning that. When Havertz doesn't play well their seems to be a thousand excuses. When you pay the money we did and the hype that comes with him im expecting better than one good game and then 5 bad ones. If the results this season were poor he would be getting alot more criticism, he is lucky we are winning so people are more accepting of his poor performances.

 

Several other players have been having a poor run of form;

Ziyech and Mount haven't been nearly good enough, Lukaku didn't score in 5 games now and Werner has 1 goal and 1 assist in 6 PL games so that's not particularly amazing either.

Even so we have scored 15 goals in the PL so far which makes us 2nd best, it's just the way we play.

Havertz seems to be another one of those players where he has it all but for some reason is only producing now & again.

Towards the end of last season we started seeing what he is capable of. The CL final, the way he bossed Ramos when we played Real Madrid. Everyone thought that yes, he's got over COVID and now we can expect to see him dominating. But so far this season he's gone back into his shell and on the whole has been disappointing. He is one of our marquee players and has to start dominating matches like Salah & Mane for the dippers and KDB for City. 

Hopefully Tuchel is on the case and we'll start seeing a game-changer sometime soon. 

Edited October 8, 20214 yr by Nibs

Havertz not in the starting 11 for Germany (Werner starts)

 

i feel Havertz is really an introvert, he will have to come out of his cocoon more often 

Surely can't be that hard for Tuchel to get Lukaku, Mount, Havertz & Werner in the same side

1 hour ago, azpi28 said:

Havertz not in the starting 11 for Germany (Werner starts)

 

i feel Havertz is really an introvert, he will have to come out of his cocoon more often 

Not so long ago it was the exact opposite.

4 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Several other players have been having a poor run of form;

Ziyech and Mount haven't been nearly good enough, Lukaku didn't score in 5 games now and Werner has 1 goal and 1 assist in 6 PL games so that's not particularly amazing either.

Even so we have scored 15 goals in the PL so far which makes us 2nd best, it's just the way we play.

I didn't say other players haven't been poor

I have also criticised Ziyech, Mount was our player of the season last year so he gets more leeway, but you are right he also had a slow start.

Using other players poor performances to try and cover for Havertz still doesn't work, he has been the worst out of all of them.

 

i feel like scoring the CL winner took some sort of pressure off of Havertz, now this should be a positive but now he needs to step up and be decisive for us. He is class, he shows glimpses of it almost every game

34 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

I didn't say other players haven't been poor

I have also criticised Ziyech, Mount was our player of the season last year so he gets more leeway, but you are right he also had a slow start.

Using other players poor performances to try and cover for Havertz still doesn't work, he has been the worst out of all of them.

 

I didn't say that you have said that others haven't been poor.

I'm just trying to maybe tell a bigger picture, none of our players is killing it so far this season, maybe there is a reason for that, we keep it tight defensively and hope for a chance to come, that we will take advantage of. It's an interesting opening of the season since we have had multiple players scoring and have scored 15 goals in 7 games in the league, overall in all competitions 13 players have scored at least 1 goal so far, Havertz is among them.

So this is not a cover for Havertz but maybe a story of our team so far, consider that when he started a game for us this season we lost only once, in the CL against Juventus, but without his goal against Liverpool, which was by all means an important goal in a big match, we maybe would have lost that match as well. Maybe the teams that have a higher quality have adapted to our tactics and have less issues stopping us from scoring.

I don't see why would you particularly say that Kai has been the worst out of all of our attackers, after all he is the one that gets shifted from right to left on any given occasion just so that another player can perform, this is a sign that we have that kind of a luxury with Kai since he is a top talent. But on what basis would we condemn him as the worst player so far? Werner, Mount and Ziyech haven't managed to have that much of a better end product than Havertz, sure Lukaku has been scoring more but like I said even he is currently on a drought.

Once we put Havertz in the middle of the pitch, either as the AM behind any striker or as a false 9 we will see just how good he is, till then we should accept that he is simply going to be less effective while playing wide.

Edited October 8, 20214 yr by Gol15

On 05/10/2021 at 05:03, thebluekid said:

For the life of me I can't understand how people think he's young. 21/22 isn't young in regards to 'experience' these days. 'Young' players are clocking up 150 odd matches+ by their 22nd birthday. I wouldn't start a job on 50k a year and justify it to my employers by saying 'I might be amazing in 5 years, so you should definitely pay me a quarter of a million for the luxury of finding out'. 12 more months I say before we have to consider our options. I'll get booted and laughed at for this but replace him with a John McGinn and we'd be a better team.

Not everyone is going to be Messi or Ronaldo where they are playing at the top of their games even as teenagers. 21-22 is very much considered young in football. 

I like him. Is he going to be the world beater I believe he will be only time will tell.

 Still the best post match interview ever.

6 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Several other players have been having a poor run of form;

Ziyech and Mount haven't been nearly good enough, Lukaku didn't score in 5 games now and Werner has 1 goal and 1 assist in 6 PL games so that's not particularly amazing either.

Even so we have scored 15 goals in the PL so far which makes us 2nd best, it's just the way we play.

A few of our players are playing a level or so below capabilities. One of the hardest things to do for a player is to go again. That is have a successful season with an intense finish, a months rest and get straight back in at a similar intensity.  SAF wrote that he would look a player in the eyes and know instinctively if he was up for another seasons fight, it is also noticeable his teams would improve dramatically after Christmas. 
Kai so far in his short career has been a half season player ,hopefully as he matures his whole game will become more consistent. 

My criticism of him is he's taking it too easy, just play the simple pass, lay it off to another player, where he could run against defenders and try to pick out a killer pass.  Just like the German game last night, could have done a lot more when in possession, instead just playing the part of a good team player.

24 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

My criticism of him is he's taking it too easy, just play the simple pass, lay it off to another player, where he could run against defenders and try to pick out a killer pass.  Just like the German game last night, could have done a lot more when in possession, instead just playing the part of a good team player.

To be fair he tried take ons against Juve and lost the ball every time.

17 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Several other players have been having a poor run of form;

Ziyech and Mount haven't been nearly good enough, Lukaku didn't score in 5 games now and Werner has 1 goal and 1 assist in 6 PL games so that's not particularly amazing either.

Even so we have scored 15 goals in the PL so far which makes us 2nd best, it's just the way we play.

Generally speaking, 3-4-2-1 formation is primarily to ensure defence is solid. 4-2-3-1, gets better out of attackers. Is it a coincidence or not that virtually all our attackers are struggling for consistency in current formation. 3-4-2-1, means there are more defenders than attackers and attackers are more tightly marked. I doubt we will see it, but it would be exciting to see us try 4-2-3-1 and try accommodate all our attackers.

24 minutes ago, STATS said:

Generally speaking, 3-4-2-1 formation is primarily to ensure defence is solid. 4-2-3-1, gets better out of attackers. Is it a coincidence or not that virtually all our attackers are struggling for consistency in current formation. 3-4-2-1, means there are more defenders than attackers and attackers are more tightly marked. I doubt we will see it, but it would be exciting to see us try 4-2-3-1 and try accommodate all our attackers.

 

What is the difference between 

Havertz - Lukaku - Mount 

Chilwell - Kante - Ruben - CHO

Rudi - Chris - Azpi

And

Lukaku 

Havertz - Mount - CHO

Kante - Ruben

Chilwell - Rudi - Chris - Azpi

One is 343 the other is 4231

Edited October 9, 20214 yr by Bob stark

1 hour ago, STATS said:

Generally speaking, 3-4-2-1 formation is primarily to ensure defence is solid. 4-2-3-1, gets better out of attackers. Is it a coincidence or not that virtually all our attackers are struggling for consistency in current formation. 3-4-2-1, means there are more defenders than attackers and attackers are more tightly marked. I doubt we will see it, but it would be exciting to see us try 4-2-3-1 and try accommodate all our attackers.

On the other hand, the attackers have more defensive responsibility in a 4-2-3-1. In order to accommodate Hazard's defensive laxity in that formation, we ended up having to play two of Ramires, Oscar and Willian.

17 hours ago, rtwelch said:

Surely can't be that hard for Tuchel to get Lukaku, Mount, Havertz & Werner in the same side

Can Havertz play RWB? 

Havertz is being played out of position.  He is much better in a central free role like a Mesut Ozil.  The problem is with Lukaku here there isn't room for that role anymore.  He is going to need to adapt.  

35 minutes ago, Whiskyjack said:

Havertz is being played out of position.  He is much better in a central free role like a Mesut Ozil.  The problem is with Lukaku here there isn't room for that role anymore.  He is going to need to adapt.  

Or we switch to a 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1/4-4-2...

On 03/10/2021 at 18:56, thebluekid said:

Let me tell you mate he has worked his absolute bottle off to get where he is. Back in the days of brief stint when I was playing for Cwmbran Celtic in the year below at school… He was unbelievable. Back then was a centre mid. He moved on and got some games under his belt as a centre forward and never looked back. Just absolutely grafted his twat off. Never stopped trying. If he was in the English FA system it would never have taken him as long to go professional. Welsh FA is honking!!!!

Aye he’s a good player, big fan of him at Hibs - works really well alongside Nisbet as well. I’m surprised he’s not had a call up given his performances since he joined us. Shame about his injury this year!

7 hours ago, Bob stark said:

 

What is the difference between 

Havertz - Lukaku - Mount 

Chilwell - Kante - Ruben - CHO

Rudi - Chris - Azpi

And

Lukaku 

Havertz - Mount - CHO

Kante - Ruben

Chilwell - Rudi - Chris - Azpi

One is 343 the other is 4231

In a 3-4-2-1, the AM are more isolated. In a 4-2-3-1, there are 4 attackers in the team, that the defence need to worry about. Also we don't play the 3-4-3. We play the 3-4-2-1, so the attackers are more narrower and they are more tightly occupied. In a 4-2-3-1, the attacking midfielder and wingers have more fluidity to interchange etc. 3-4-2-1 helps shore up the defence for that reason as there is extra protection but on that part, you withdraw an attacker in a 4-2-3-1.

56 minutes ago, STATS said:

In a 3-4-2-1, the AM are more isolated. In a 4-2-3-1, there are 4 attackers in the team, that the defence need to worry about. Also we don't play the 3-4-3. We play the 3-4-2-1, so the attackers are more narrower and they are more tightly occupied. In a 4-2-3-1, the attacking midfielder and wingers have more fluidity to interchange etc. 3-4-2-1 helps shore up the defence for that reason as there is extra protection but on that part, you withdraw an attacker in a 4-2-3-1.

Not really, offensively it all depend on the instruction. The biggest difference between 4231 and 343 is more on the defensive side. 

Offensively in 4231, if Tuchel ask cho to hug the line, then ask Havertz to play narrower and ask Chilwell to push up high and ask azpi to be very defensive, you will attack in 343

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Or we switch to a 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1/4-4-2...

We're champions of Europe and top of the league.  Why would we want to change formation??

9 hours ago, Whiskyjack said:

We're champions of Europe and top of the league.  Why would we want to change formation??

I believe that we need an alternative to our current system, the sooner the better. Why not have 2 formations that work instead of 1?

On 09/10/2021 at 19:06, PloKoon13 said:

On the other hand, the attackers have more defensive responsibility in a 4-2-3-1. In order to accommodate Hazard's defensive laxity in that formation, we ended up having to play two of Ramires, Oscar and Willian.

This.

A lot of people only want to talk about 4231, 442, 343 but that is not the most important thing, it is more important how do you want to attack, how do you want to defend.