Missed a simple 1-1 for Germany. Has to bury those chances for club and country with more conviction and consistency. Anyway, gets a pass for now as he did it when it mattered most!

4 hours ago, PhilH930 said:

Missed a simple 1-1 for Germany. Has to bury those chances for club and country with more conviction and consistency. Anyway, gets a pass for now as he did it when it mattered most!

Yep, he missed a chance today, but showed what a unselfish teammate he was making sure Timo's goal rolled in untouched.  Most all forwards would have given that a quick toe poke and claimed the goal.  This kid's character matches his emormous talent.

Havertz is arguably our most talented player but he need to do more. Against villa, I thought he was pretty anonymous. When your team is playing well and completely dominant, it is easy do well but when you are struggling that is when you need your big gun to do something.

It is not just scoring, pick up the ball in midfield drive forward, keep the ball, or create chances out of nothing. 

On 03/09/2021 at 20:56, LongtimerLurker said:

https://www.bavarianfootballworks.com/2021/9/2/22653729/hansi-flick-thomas-tuchel-kai-havertz-werner-chelsea-muller-sane-musiala-gnabry-reus-kimmich-sule

Interesting that both Flick and Tuchel always saw Kai much higher up the pitch compared to Frank who wanted him in deeper roles. Where I think Frank went went wrong with Kai is assuming  he had to play as a number 8 to get into these deeper positions, when in fact he could drop deep as a number 10 or false 9 anyway.

Lampard was in fact wrong to play Havertz as a forward, especially on the wing, but the idea of playing him deeper in midfield was not without merit. Havertz just was not very good under Lampard, due to a combination of form, settlement and of course COVID just as he was starting to show some promise. The position Havertz plays now is not all that different but he approaches the game in a much more lively, more involved manner. It's also worth pointing out the team just didn't really make the 4-3-3 formation and Lampard's possession-based game work.

The idea of playing him deeper actually worked to some extent because it stopped him from having to play back-to-goal and still allowed him to make his late runs. Now, playing back-to-goal and turning a marker is one of his best attributes, meaning he is much better in a pure forward position. 

One of the cool consequences of Havertz's improvement is that we can now field two players (Lukaku and Havertz) who are able to physically mismatch against any wide defender. If Lukaku occupies the defenders then Havertz is able to win headers and vice-versa. We saw this against both Liverpool and Arsenal; against Liverpool, Lukaku's ability to occupy van Djik at corners left Liverpool mismatched against Havertz as they had no defender who could compete both aerially or for pace. Same with Arsenal as Lukaku occupied both central defenders and Havertz had space to play with.

 

Edited September 13, 20214 yr by SydneyChelsea

3 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Havertz is arguably our most talented player but he need to do more. Against villa, I thought he was pretty anonymous. When your team is playing well and completely dominant, it is easy do well but when you are struggling that is when you need your big gun to do something.

It is not just scoring, pick up the ball in midfield drive forward, keep the ball, or create chances out of nothing. 

The entire front three struggled in the first half because the midfield in particular was being dominated by Villa with Saul in particular struggling. 

If you're not getting any service, there's not much you can do to impact on the game. Time and again in that first half we were just punting 40+ yard balls high up the pitch. It was pretty rubbish football from us. 

I didn't think Havertz did much wrong, didn't look sloppy in possession or anything like that. 

40 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

The entire front three struggled in the first half because the midfield in particular was being dominated by Villa with Saul in particular struggling. 

If you're not getting any service, there's not much you can do to impact on the game. Time and again in that first half we were just punting 40+ yard balls high up the pitch. It was pretty rubbish football from us. 

I didn't think Havertz did much wrong, didn't look sloppy in possession or anything like that. 

The fact that he got no service is the reason why I said he need to do more. My expectations for Kai is sky high, he has the potential to become one of the best all around attacker in the world where he can affect the game even when we are struggling. 

All I want from him is he can't be passive. No service, no problem, drop deep, demand the ball and bring it forward, or  keep the ball, pretty much do something to impact the game.

Is it difficult? Absolutely.

Can he do this everytime we are struggling? Nope but I expect him to do this. 

26 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

The fact that he got no service is the reason why I said he need to do more. My expectations for Kai is sky high, he has the potential to become one of the best all around attacker in the world where he can affect the game even when we are struggling. 

All I want from him is he can't be passive. No service, no problem, drop deep, demand the ball and bring it forward, or  keep the ball, pretty much do something to impact the game.

Is it difficult? Absolutely.

Can he do this everytime we are struggling? Nope but I expect him to do this. 

That's Havertz heat map for the game. 

He came deep plenty but it just wasn't happening for him. 

He started on the left of the front three, I think he prefers it on the right where he can come inside onto his stronger left foot. 

Not his best game I'll give you that but I didn't see anything that worries me either. 

2 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

That's Havertz heat map for the game. 

He came deep plenty but it just wasn't happening for him. 

He started on the left of the front three, I think he prefers it on the right where he can come inside onto his stronger left foot. 

Not his best game I'll give you that but I didn't see anything that worries me either. 

I think it comes down to expectations. For normal player, he was fine. Nothing special and nothing bad but I want Havertz to start moving to the next level. 

 

6 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Lampard was in fact wrong to play Havertz as a forward, especially on the wing, but the idea of playing him deeper in midfield was not without merit. Havertz just was not very good under Lampard, due to a combination of form, settlement and of course COVID just as he was starting to show some promise. The position Havertz plays now is not all that different but he approaches the game in a much more lively, more involved manner. It's also worth pointing out the team just didn't really make the 4-3-3 formation and Lampard's possession-based game work.

The idea of playing him deeper actually worked to some extent because it stopped him from having to play back-to-goal and still allowed him to make his late runs. Now, playing back-to-goal and turning a marker is one of his best attributes, meaning he is much better in a pure forward position. 

One of the cool consequences of Havertz's improvement is that we can now field two players (Lukaku and Havertz) who are able to physically mismatch against any wide defender. If Lukaku occupies the defenders then Havertz is able to win headers and vice-versa. We saw this against both Liverpool and Arsenal; against Liverpool, Lukaku's ability to occupy van Djik at corners left Liverpool mismatched against Havertz as they had no defender who could compete both aerially or for pace. Same with Arsenal as Lukaku occupied both central defenders and Havertz had space to play with.

 

I believe lamp initial idea was to play Havertz as a 10 in 4231. It became a merry go rounds after a while though

For me it is more a case of "what would Werner and Mount be doing" if they had started?

Imo they would have worked a lot harder and helped out flagging midfield a lot more than Havertz and Ziyech did. 

You have to read the game and adjust accordingly. Imo Havertz helped little and Ziyech sulked.

Surprised no one has criticised his performances this season.

5 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Surprised no one has criticised his performances this season.

I think he has been decent before the international break, but these last 2 games have been poor. Mount the same, just not clicking, and when they get an opportunity the quality from both is seriously lacking.

Werner and Lukaku looked promising, and with Kante, Kova, and Jorginho, all looking in great form, none of these creative players are shoeins to start for me at the moment. 

Long season though, but my god we miss that Fabregas, Mata, and Hazard creative spark. 

Just now, big blue said:

I think he has been decent before the international break, but these last 2 games have been poor. Mount the same, just not clicking, and when they get an opportunity the quality from both is seriously lacking.

Werner and Lukaku looked promising, and with Kante, Kova, and Jorginho, all looking in great form, none of these creative players are shoeins to start for me at the moment. 

Long season though, but my god we miss that Fabregas, Mata, and Hazard creative spark. 

Should give Hudson Odoi a chance on the left. 

2 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Should give Hudson Odoi a chance on the left. 

I think at some point he surely has to, and Pulisic will be back in the next week or so aswell. Its actually pretty impressive ehere we find ourselves after 5 games and some tough fixtures, when going forward it hasnt been great. Thankfully we have goals coming from the rest of the team.

9 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Surprised no one has criticised his performances this season.

Give him time, together with Mason and Rom they are trying to get used to each other’s runs. The international break hasn’t helped in developing relationships, couple this with coming off the back of a hard season with little rest in between. The team on the whole are still finding their way, which makes our results even more impressive.

1 minute ago, big blue said:

I think at some point he surely has to, and Pulisic will be back in the next week or so aswell. Its actually pretty impressive ehere we find ourselves after 5 games and some tough fixtures, when going forward it hasnt been great. Thankfully we have goals coming from the rest of the team.

I just feel a bit sorry for Hudson Odoi, rarely gets a chance to play on his fav left forward position. If he doe splay RWB or right forward and he plays poorly we dont see him for weeks. But other players can have poor game after poor game and continually get picked.

20 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Surprised no one has criticised his performances this season.

Because we're winning. So not much to grumble about right now. 

He's not doing enough to justify being picked every game right now but neither has Ziyech or Mount. 

Started the season well but is now encountering bumps in development.

He must understand that every chance is special. Lots of growing up that he needs to do if he wants to keep his place

2 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

Surprised no one has criticised his performances this season.

Like others mentioned, I think he started the season well and that goal at Liverpool capped it off. However, his last couple of games he has been poor. Needs to be dropped so he can fight for his place again.

Still not really sure what his best role is. Maybe in a midfield three, at the top, like Lampard used to play. 

I'm not a big fan of his nonchalant style though that seems to impress a lot of people on here. He telegraphs a lot of passes and plays which lead to losing possession. He has good games here and there but needs to step up to be a top player.

Has to improve, but wasn't the only one struggling up top today.  His pace looks very good, but needs more conviction in passing and finishing.  Sometimes makes the hard stuff seem easy, but the easy stuff appear very complicated.

@Zeta - agree, I'm not sure what his best role is either.

i think in our system .. the attacking threat is coming from WBs.. i think his best position is that of a second striker.. but in the current position he is having to play wider..which is not his long term position.

Honestly don't know what I'm going to get from Havertz game by game. Needs way more consistency in his game.

That chance where he completely missed the ball was worrying for a baller of his supposed quality.

Edited September 20, 20214 yr by KonaKai Blue

Felt like he has another couple of gears left in him, hopefully he will find them soon in those big games.