Whatever the budget is spend it on quality creators and forwards. 

Piss on replacing AC, Rudiger, Dave and Alonso. Tell TT to use Colwill, Sterling, Maatsen and Chalobah.

No matter how sh*t the opponent is just play a low block at Chelsea and most of the time it works. It has become ridiculous now and we have done nothing to change it, yet our focus is on defenders apparently for the window?

Pi$$ on that I don't want to see another season of this turgid rubbish.

6 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Is it his fault that Pulisic missed an open goal? Or when Havertz kicked the ball with his wrong foot? There players just aren’t good enough. 20 shots and it took a left back to score our only goal.

Yep. Tuchel can't teach these players how to not bottle big situations, it's something you either have or you don't, and a lot of our lot clearly don't have it. 

Alonso's technique in his finishing is something we should expect from our forwards, wingers and midfielders, but they miss the most simple of chances every game. He makes them look like fools.

55 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

I don't think we even need major surgery, we might just need a fabregas just like before. Jorginho has the ability to become something like that but he's gone back to playing safeball

Crikey, I must have been in a coma

58 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

I don't think we even need major surgery, we might just need a fabregas just like before. Jorginho has the ability to become something like that but he's gone back to playing safeball

And then we will just need a D.Costa as well as Hazard.

Liverpool's central midfield doesn't have better end product than ours yet their attackers have a lot more goals in them in comparison to our own.

Jorginho can't be a patsy forever you know, he was never labeled as "Fabregas" nor did anyone expect him to do what Fabregas did.

Lastly, the teams that are above us don't have a Fabregas player at all.

8 home wins from 18 games. Wow back to the future, like 1989.

10 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

And then we will just need a D.Costa as well as Hazard.

Liverpool's central midfield doesn't have better end product than ours yet their attackers have a lot more goals in them in comparison to our own.

Jorginho can't be a patsy forever you know, he was never labeled as "Fabregas" nor did anyone expect him to do what Fabregas did.

Lastly, the teams that are above us don't have a Fabregas player at all.

Their play style is completely different to ours, we do need creativity from deep as we are a possession and defensive oriented team. Nobody is saying we expect Jorgi to be that player but he has shown that he can find passes from deep, he can do it. Maybe Lukaku's lack of movement in months has trained him out of looking for those passes. I do think that when he's not in great physical condition he tends to not risk passing forward as he can't shift his feet to buy time to look for it, when players are ready to press him.

I hate to say it as well but Henderson spreads the ball around better than all our midfielders..

Thank God we secured a top four finish with a couple of games to spare and we didn’t have to go to the final game needing a result. I wouldn’t want to put any money on us needing a result at the moment.

I know all the attention has been on defensive reinforcements this summer. But our attacking options this season have been a serious disappointment. It’s not through lack of trying but Tuchel really has tried every possible permutation. But Pulisic missing that chance tonight just about sums up our attacking play this season. How did he manage to miss that? Blimey.  

1 hour ago, sonic90 said:

I don't think we even need major surgery, we might just need a fabregas just like before. Jorginho has the ability to become something like that but he's gone back to playing safeball

We need upgrades for Jorginho , Rudiger, Lukaku , Christensen  Tiago Silva (his form has dipped due to age and being over played) , We also need a true Playmaker and a sub for James

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

Yep. Tuchel can't teach these players how to not bottle big situations, it's something you either have or you don't, and a lot of our lot clearly don't have it. 

Alonso's technique in his finishing is something we should expect from our forwards, wingers and midfielders, but they miss the most simple of chances every game. He makes them look like fools.

I really can't understand the amount of stick Alonso gets from some of our fans.  Admittedly his defending leaves a bit to be desired but as an attacking wingback he's quality and if he gets a goalscoring opportunity he's head and shoulders above most of our players.

29 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

Their play style is completely different to ours, we do need creativity from deep as we are a possession and defensive oriented team. Nobody is saying we expect Jorgi to be that player but he has shown that he can find passes from deep, he can do it. Maybe Lukaku's lack of movement in months has trained him out of looking for those passes. I do think that when he's not in great physical condition he tends to not risk passing forward as he can't shift his feet to buy time to look for it, when players are ready to press him.

I hate to say it as well but Henderson spreads the ball around better than all our midfielders..

Their playstyle looks pretty similar though, they press high and so do we, they rely on balls from their full backs and so do we. Yet they got all 3 of their main attackers with 10-15-20+ goals this season and we don't. Henderson when all said and done isn't really a difference maker, maybe a good captain and all that but he's nothing special. Realize that a lot of how we play is due to the instructions that are given, when Tuchel made a different gameplan for the second leg in Madrid the team played differently, you would be saying the same things about Henderson if he was here. Tuchel has never had a problem with our buildup, he has never actually complained about the lack of creativity from our midfield, he was in fact hinting that minimal wins are totally fine as long as we don't make mistakes and concede easy goals, this is how he built the team last year and this is how he won the CL.

You keep mentioning Jorginho as if that position where the player is so deep is supposed to make 20 assists, show me a team that has a player like that right now and then I'll make a thread about how we should sign him. Yes there has been 1 player capable of doing that which was Fabregas but that's not the norm anywhere, it's pretty hard to create goals from the center of the pitch, just check which players made the most assists in the PL over the past few years and you'll see mostly players that either play more forward naturally like De Bruyne or players that cross the ball a lot from the sides like A.-Arnold...

In the end of the day no amount of creativity can fix the lack of fire power up front, it doesn't really matter when overall the team isn't clinical enough over the course of a whole season. Face the facts, we lost D.Costa and since then we haven't had such a quality striker. Even Hazard played as a false 9 at times but we lost him as well.

19 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Their playstyle looks pretty similar though, they press high and so do we, they rely on balls from their full backs and so do we. Yet they got all 3 of their main attackers with 10-15-20+ goals this season and we don't. Henderson when all said and done isn't really a difference maker, maybe a good captain and all that but he's nothing special. Realize that a lot of how we play is due to the instructions that are given, when Tuchel made a different gameplan for the second leg in Madrid the team played differently, you would be saying the same things about Henderson if he was here. Tuchel has never had a problem with our buildup, he has never actually complained about the lack of creativity from our midfield, he was in fact hinting that minimal wins are totally fine as long as we don't make mistakes and concede easy goals, this is how he built the team last year and this is how he won the CL.

You keep mentioning Jorginho as if that position where the player is so deep is supposed to make 20 assists, show me a team that has a player like that right now and then I'll make a thread about how we should sign him. Yes there has been 1 player capable of doing that which was Fabregas but that's not the norm anywhere, it's pretty hard to create goals from the center of the pitch, just check which players made the most assists in the PL over the past few years and you'll see mostly players that either play more forward naturally like De Bruyne or players that cross the ball a lot from the sides like A.-Arnold...

In the end of the day no amount of creativity can fix the lack of fire power up front, it doesn't really matter when overall the team isn't clinical enough over the course of a whole season. Face the facts, we lost D.Costa and since then we haven't had such a quality striker. Even Hazard played as a false 9 at times but we lost him as well.

It's not about assists, it's about penetration of the low block specifically. We can give top teams a game because they don't sit back. When we are trying to cut into a deep defence we need to be able to attack from all angles, so if they cut off short passes then we can play the long ball, if they double up on the wings we can go through the center.
There was a reason why Reece was cutting into midfield and basically playing the 8 role today at times, because we couldn't do anything from the wings and nobody else was creating through the middle.

That's not to say our attackers shouldn't do better, but their jobs are easier when their defenders are constantly under pressure and second guessing where the next attack will come from instead of knowing what we are going to do next. I'm only looking at the midfield personally because realistically, we can't get rid of many attackers, we have multiple midfielders leaving or possibly being sold so that is where we need to rebuild to hopefully help our current attack function better.

One positive that came out of tonight's game was how good Reece looked when he moved into a midfield role. He supposedly did very well there for Wigan and I wonder if he will ultimately play in that position for us. Perhaps we bring back Tino Livramento as RB and let Reece add some beast mode to midfield.

Well we got there in the end. It has been a topsy turvy season. See you guys next season

57 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

Maybe Lukaku's lack of movement in months has trained him out of looking for those passes. 

You can ask the same question about  Morata, higuain, Pedro, hazard, Willian, and all of our current fw. 

5 hours ago, timetowaste said:

Is it his fault that Pulisic missed an open goal? Or when Havertz kicked the ball with his wrong foot? These players just aren’t good enough. 20 shots and it took a left back to score our only goal.

How many chances did we create apart from the one pulisic missed? Majority of the 20 shots was ziyech from outside the box- how many saved did kasper make?

8 1-1 draws and you think there is nothing wrong with the tactics? We have struggled against relegation fodder or mid table sides .. you think we aren’t slow in possession?

1 hour ago, Jangz said:

How many chances did we create apart from the one pulisic missed? Majority of the 20 shots was ziyech from outside the box- how many saved did kasper make?

8 1-1 draws and you think there is nothing wrong with the tactics? We have struggled against relegation fodder or mid table sides .. you think we aren’t slow in possession?

TT is a very good manager but he has some flaws he needs to work on. Our home form has been awful since he came to us and that needs serious improvement. 

4 hours ago, forbzy said:

One positive that came out of tonight's game was how good Reece looked when he moved into a midfield role. He supposedly did very well there for Wigan and I wonder if he will ultimately play in that position for us. Perhaps we bring back Tino Livramento as RB and let Reece add some beast mode to midfield.

I think it's an option we should use more often, especially seeing as I don't think he is always suited to the wing back role. Against teams that sit back and defend, he struggles to have an impact. 

For me James looks a bit square or awkward for a standard midfielder, I think he is better wide though no reason why he can't come inside to produce the killer cross from time to time.

 

10 hours ago, sonic90 said:

It's not about assists, it's about penetration of the low block specifically. We can give top teams a game because they don't sit back. When we are trying to cut into a deep defence we need to be able to attack from all angles, so if they cut off short passes then we can play the long ball, if they double up on the wings we can go through the center.
There was a reason why Reece was cutting into midfield and basically playing the 8 role today at times, because we couldn't do anything from the wings and nobody else was creating through the middle.

That's not to say our attackers shouldn't do better, but their jobs are easier when their defenders are constantly under pressure and second guessing where the next attack will come from instead of knowing what we are going to do next. I'm only looking at the midfield personally because realistically, we can't get rid of many attackers, we have multiple midfielders leaving or possibly being sold so that is where we need to rebuild to hopefully help our current attack function better.

I just think that whoever we replace Jorginho with, that his role won't be as simple as him forgetting about anything related about defense and transition and just focus on finding the final ball... Imagine having 1 player that organizes the transition, works as a buffer for the backline and also solves most games in attack. Such a player would win the POTY award.

Fabregas wasn't exactly known for helping our defense so even if we find such a player he would still need a partner to stay back and to do the defensive tasks. IMO Gilmour could pass the ball to the final third and find good openings while Rice could be his partner that covers for him in a similar way Matic covered for Fabregas and Kante, but we simply can't afford Rice and he doesn't want to make it an easier transfer either.

When was the last time our striker scored a goal like this one?

First touch volley from the cross, directly under the bar in the corner there. Yes it's a Fabregas pass but if he passes that same ball to Pulisic, Werner, Lukaku and Havertz I think all of them whiff it to someone standing in the Shed End stand...

The reality is that Mount scored 10 PL goals because he's just better in comparison to Pulisic and Werner, he does his role with a higher quality in comparison to the other two players, regardless of what Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic do. That's also while being our best pressing player so Mount is a real gem because he puts up a shift all the time and now at the end of the season he as the AM has made 10+ goals and 10+ assists. That's our future captain in my eyes and I can't say that his output is due to us passing the ball slow or fast or however, he's just a quality player, once Tuchel manages to make more players to be so influential in multiple parts of our game then maybe it will become easier to penetrate teams that sit back against us.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

I just think that whoever we replace Jorginho with, that his role won't be as simple as him forgetting about anything related about defense and transition and just focus on finding the final ball... Imagine having 1 player that organizes the transition, works as a buffer for the backline and also solves most games in attack. Such a player would win the POTY award.

Fabregas wasn't exactly known for helping our defense so even if we find such a player he would still need a partner to stay back and to do the defensive tasks. IMO Gilmour could pass the ball to the final third and find good openings while Rice could be his partner that covers for him in a similar way Matic covered for Fabregas and Kante, but we simply can't afford Rice and he doesn't want to make it an easier transfer either.

When was the last time our striker scored a goal like this one?

First touch volley from the cross, directly under the bar in the corner there. Yes it's a Fabregas pass but if he passes that same ball to Pulisic, Werner, Lukaku and Havertz I think all of them whiff it to someone standing in the Shed End stand...

The reality is that Mount scored 10 PL goals because he's just better in comparison to Pulisic and Werner, he does his role with a higher quality in comparison to the other two players, regardless of what Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic do. That's also while being our best pressing player so Mount is a real gem because he puts up a shift all the time and now at the end of the season he as the AM has made 10+ goals and 10+ assists. That's our future captain in my eyes and I can't say that his output is due to us passing the ball slow or fast or however, he's just a quality player, once Tuchel manages to make more players to be so influential in multiple parts of our game then maybe it will become easier to penetrate teams that sit back against us.

Agree on Fabregas defensively always thought Matic looked terrified playing with Fabregas.

On the goal think only Alonso has that in his locker yet them look at this from Havertz as he nets the winner a very clever goal from a Jorginho pass.

I actually thought Mount could have had more yet agree he i still our best prospect by some distance when compared to Werner, Pulisic or CHO. 

 

 

Well, we managed one goal from 20 attempts with seven on target.

Leicester score one goal from one shot on target, plus one other attempt.

Groundhog Day.
 

19 hours ago, SW6Blue said:

Well, we managed one goal from 20 attempts with seven on target.

Leicester score one goal from one shot on target, plus one other attempt.

Groundhog Day.
 

I bet on the draw and won a modest cash win.

I think the fact we only needed a draw to secure third barring a goal difference miracle helped.

Edited May 21, 20224 yr by strider6004

On 20/05/2022 at 11:33, Gol15 said:

I just think that whoever we replace Jorginho with, that his role won't be as simple as him forgetting about anything related about defense and transition and just focus on finding the final ball... Imagine having 1 player that organizes the transition, works as a buffer for the backline and also solves most games in attack. Such a player would win the POTY award.

Fabregas wasn't exactly known for helping our defense so even if we find such a player he would still need a partner to stay back and to do the defensive tasks. IMO Gilmour could pass the ball to the final third and find good openings while Rice could be his partner that covers for him in a similar way Matic covered for Fabregas and Kante, but we simply can't afford Rice and he doesn't want to make it an easier transfer either.

When was the last time our striker scored a goal like this one?

First touch volley from the cross, directly under the bar in the corner there. Yes it's a Fabregas pass but if he passes that same ball to Pulisic, Werner, Lukaku and Havertz I think all of them whiff it to someone standing in the Shed End stand...

The reality is that Mount scored 10 PL goals because he's just better in comparison to Pulisic and Werner, he does his role with a higher quality in comparison to the other two players, regardless of what Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic do. That's also while being our best pressing player so Mount is a real gem because he puts up a shift all the time and now at the end of the season he as the AM has made 10+ goals and 10+ assists. That's our future captain in my eyes and I can't say that his output is due to us passing the ball slow or fast or however, he's just a quality player, once Tuchel manages to make more players to be so influential in multiple parts of our game then maybe it will become easier to penetrate teams that sit back against us.

Yes it is all about the balance of the midfield, they work as a unit. Fabregas was like A in attack and D in defence but Matic was A in defence and probably C or something in pushing forward so it worked. Not to mention Oscar was coming back to help as well which goes to show just how much protection Cesc needed. On paper Jorgi + Kovacic makes sense but it doesn't always work well on the pitch and even if the midfield unit is well balanced they also need to connect well with the attacking 3.

I would personally sell Kante and keep Jorginho but we need to be able to unlock his ability to be that Cesc-lite, he doesn't need to be A class like Cesc but good enough to help us attack from all angles and his midfield partners are going to be key to that, right now in certain games Jorgi might as well not play, for whatever reason he can't be the multitool he can be and is just passing backwards and sideways, when that happens we know something in the machine is not working well.

Ultimately we need to be able to break down these teams that sit deep or we will not challenge for the title, we'll drop points guaranteed and we can't just go ahead and revamp the attack because of contract lengths, player values etc. so the improvement to do so must come from midfield.

10 hours ago, sonic90 said:

Yes it is all about the balance of the midfield, they work as a unit. Fabregas was like A in attack and D in defence but Matic was A in defence and probably C or something in pushing forward so it worked. Not to mention Oscar was coming back to help as well which goes to show just how much protection Cesc needed. On paper Jorgi + Kovacic makes sense but it doesn't always work well on the pitch and even if the midfield unit is well balanced they also need to connect well with the attacking 3.

I would personally sell Kante and keep Jorginho but we need to be able to unlock his ability to be that Cesc-lite, he doesn't need to be A class like Cesc but good enough to help us attack from all angles and his midfield partners are going to be key to that, right now in certain games Jorgi might as well not play, for whatever reason he can't be the multitool he can be and is just passing backwards and sideways, when that happens we know something in the machine is not working well.

Ultimately we need to be able to break down these teams that sit deep or we will not challenge for the title, we'll drop points guaranteed and we can't just go ahead and revamp the attack because of contract lengths, player values etc. so the improvement to do so must come from midfield.

In theory Gallagher should contribute a lot to our attack, more than Kante. He has scored more goals in the league than anyone in our squad part from Mount last time I checked.

Our midfield improvement could also come in the form of Chilwell coming back from injury, while both him and James were healthy our attack was a bit faster and we had the threat from both sides, meaning if Chilwell is to be the wing-back. Obviously Alonso has been good for us in attack but mainly in the opposition box, Chiwell provided more pace and he put crosses in more often while Alonso had this tendency to pass the ball back in order to try to cut inside later on if the opportunity arrived.

I think that it would be strange to see Tuchel totally satisfied with starting the next season with Werner, Lukaku and Pulisic. Like you say it's unrealistic to expect so many new players but I would be fine if we were to lose the "depth" in attack by somehow managing to see two out of those three and sign one new attacker that would provide more fire power.

Lastly, in the recent times I did notice Jorginho trying to find Lukaku, he was more direct than before but those long balls that were aimed at Lukaku looked a bit odd, he chiped the ball in a way that it goes somehow much higher before falling down, almost as if it takes an extra second or two before it actually comes to Lukaku. Jorginho is far better at switching the flank than finding the striker, I feel like those kinds of passes were made much more often by Rudiger and T.Silva, even Christensen. One player that I thought about as a good replacement for Jorginho, even years back is Sandro Tonali, he's actually good at free kicks and has more pace and can pass the ball like a mini Pirlo, but AC Milan is about to win the league and I'm guessing that they wouldn't consider selling him at all.

Edited May 21, 20224 yr by Gol15