1 hour ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Ok.....What's Tuchel got to do with us losing 1-0 in the Champions League KO stages right now in February 2023?! Enzo and Jorgi are different players firstly. Secondly this is a legitimate criticism of Potter, if you can't take that then you're part of the problem mate.

It's a simple fact we shouldn't have set up like that for attacking a corner, not at 0-0 not at 1-0 up or even 1-0 down especially at that specific time in the match there was still plenty of time left. 

These are the basics. Also if it had been Jorgi I'm pretty sure he makes the tactical foul in their half that's the difference, Enzo is still learning so I'll give him that. I find it astounding someone can make this about Tuchel and Jorginho, Potter sympathisers will see him do no wrong.

The players take a share of the blame make no mistake these are professionals that should understand the situation, but that goal is on Potter and if you can't understand that you don't understand the fundamentals to coach a team (yes you might not be a coach but I'm sure you have over 10 years experience watching or playing).

The coach should be aware at all phases of play, if he chose to ignore Enzo being our last player that means he was comfortable with the situation. This isn't a hindsight situation, it's common sense that player had shown us his pace previously during the game. We didn't respect him and he punished us ruthlessly.

Just admit Potter was naive to the situation and takes some blame. It doesn't mean you don't support the man it just means you accept the reality of the situation. Otherwise I think there are some delusions for certain fans and they won't accept what they can see in front of them due to rose tinted glasses.

You mention Tuchel, that doesn't happen at 0-0 under him in the UCL, it's a level of naivety that I think Potter will now admit to privately and learn from. It's not a particular situation that makes me think Potter out, it just highlights my stance further that he is still not ready for big games like this. Granted he showed something during that game that actually gives me optimism.

However, fine margins and the recent form back up what many still believe that this wasn't the right appointment. Yet he will be given time to prove people wrong, the question is how much time does it take without it really getting ugly.

You often take a very long time Longtime to not say very much. You have heavily criticized Potter for perceived tactical defensive ineptitude on the Dortmund breakaway goal last night. 

As my response and attached video conclusively showed, it was a set of circumstances we have seen before and in which we have also conceded a goal. And this scenario wasn't a one off. Tuchel sometimes had Jorginho as the last man on corners and set pieces, but we didn't concede from it on every single occasion. Does that make Tuchel tactically naive too? Or is there a double standard at play here?

And finally when Adayemi starts running, in what parallel universe do you even begin to believe Jorginho would have gotten close enough to foul him? Maybe he could have thrown something at him. Probably more likely.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Zeta said:

 

Wow!! I always knew they were fickle. But even I can't believe they have turned on Jorginho that quickly!!

5 minutes ago, just said:

You often take a very long time Longtime to not say very much. You have heavily criticized Potter for perceived tactical defensive ineptitude on the Dortmund breakaway goal last night. 

As my response and attached video conclusively showed, it was a set of circumstances we have seen before and in which we have also conceded a goal. And this scenario wasn't a one off. Tuchel sometimes had Jorginho as the last man on corners and set pieces, but we didn't concede from it on every single occasion. Does that make Tuchel tactically naive too? Or is there a double standard at play here?

And finally when Adayemi starts running, in what parallel universe do you even begin to believe Jorginho would have gotten close enough to foul him? Maybe he could have thrown something at him. Probably more likely.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter @just, you can't blame Jorginho anymore. I understand that you have a lot of support for your fellow countryman mr Potter but the fact is that he blundered and we lost because of it, it would be nice if you at least tried to stop including Jorginho in every conversation, Lampard also put Kante there that slipped and fully embarrased himself, it doesn't make it any less of a tactical blunder.

43 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

Valid points but this cannot be the sole area of organisation. It is just not feasible. In a 60,000 stadium with a wall of noise rolling throguh the stands it is not practical for the manager so be the sole voice and arbiter of organisational structure. The players know the drills, know the patterns. Its a corner, From 5 yards outside of the box there is nothing happening that is any different than any corner they have ever faced in countless training sessions. They have done this drill routinely since they were 11 or 12. There has to be an additional organiation from on the pitch, which should echo the instructions from pitchside.

Hey this isn't the sole preserve of our lot. This even happened to the greatest team on God's given earth, those with the multi levers. It helped us get to a CL final and helped a certain striker to dine out on it for the rest of the time he was with us.

And if those drills and setups are wrong, does it matter if the players know them? This is something you take care of before you enter that 60.000 stadium.

It's actually mind-blowing I'm hearing in many places how all we need is a number 9 and things will be great.

It's almost as if we didn't sign one the last two summers to disastrous results.

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Potter bottled a decent away performance, I haven't seen such a basic tactical error of leaving 99% of the pitch open for a 1v1 situation since el Nino Torres scored at Camp Nou, completely unnecessary.

@Gol15

You have chosen to ignore this already but it would be great if you could dissect and analyse the clip below from a managerial tactical viewpoint and then apportion the blame as you see fit. Something similar to what are doing with Potter for last night's goal. 

Incidentally, in case you missed it, this occured after 2015 at the Camp Nou.

 

32 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

Admittedly I only saw the film once and it was a few years ago, but my understanding of moneyball is that it's the opposite: maximising spend (usually when a team has limited resources) by using data to target lesser-known and lesser-valued resources with specific statistical/tactical attributes (basically what you go on to describe). Good post though, sorry to nit-pick. 

Didn't realise there was a film with the same name 😂, I'd just seen the term used in literature,  but yeah that's fair enough mate. 

14 minutes ago, just said:

@Gol15

You have chosen to ignore this already but it would be great if you could dissect and analyse the clip below from a managerial tactical viewpoint and then apportion the blame as you see fit. Something similar to what are doing with Potter for last night's goal. 

Incidentally, in case you missed it, this occured after 2015 at the Camp Nou.

 

It doesn't matter @just, you can't blame Jorginho anymore. I understand that you have a lot of support for your fellow countryman mr Potter but the fact is that he blundered and we lost because of it, it would be nice if you at least tried to stop including Jorginho in every conversation, Lampard also put Kante there that slipped and fully embarrased himself, it doesn't make it any less of a tactical blunder.

41 minutes ago, just said:

You often take a very long time Longtime to not say very much. You have heavily criticized Potter for perceived tactical defensive ineptitude on the Dortmund breakaway goal last night. 

As my response and attached video conclusively showed, it was a set of circumstances we have seen before and in which we have also conceded a goal. And this scenario wasn't a one off. Tuchel sometimes had Jorginho as the last man on corners and set pieces, but we didn't concede from it on every single occasion. Does that make Tuchel tactically naive too? Or is there a double standard at play here?

And finally when Adayemi starts running, in what parallel universe do you even begin to believe Jorginho would have gotten close enough to foul him? Maybe he could have thrown something at him. Probably more likely.

 

 

 

For some reason my browser on my phone is glitchy on this and a couple other sites so I often have to switch to desktop mode which I didn't do (slightly irrelevant) but that's why I didn't see that there was a video attached. 

I just don't see why Tuchel and Jorginho are being used to defend Potter here. Neither are at the club anymore, a few members alongside myself are pointing out the goal was avoidable and that's on Potter. Why can't you accept that, why the need to bring Jorginho and Tuchel into the criticism? We're talking about the here and now, isn't this Potter's team? Why does it matter what we did under Tuchel? I'll tell you one thing that we did under Tuchel we won the UCL. That doesn't look likely under Potter.

I don't fully disagree, but I actually try to keep my posts shorter, but I can often ramble a bit. I do think most of what I say has substance though and relevance to the overall points I'm trying to make. So if something isn't needed I tend to edit it out if I'm reviewing my message before sending it.

Edit: to the point about Jorgi, well he doesn't let him get past the halfway line, seen it multiple times he will take the tactical foul for the team. Maybe that's because he sets himself up so that he can make that block before the player enters our half, thus preventing a red card. TT if he set up this way trust Jorgi to do that.

If Potter trusts Enzo to do the same then again that's on Potter. It's not double standards mate it's called analysis of the game, if you want to compare Tuchel to Potter believe me when I say that won't happen in a UCL KO 0-0 under TT not at the time period with plenty of time to score.

The crux of the matter is we are 1-0 down and it's on Potter. He coached a fine attacking display, not scoring isn't really on him there's not much more he could do. Then again removing PEA from the squad when others could have gone, shows perhaps a naivety there as well that's your top goalscorer and most experienced striker in the competition and you're struggling to score. 

Nevertheless defensively we were sound, bar that one error and that's what it is an error. If you can't accept the blame falls on the coach for that then that's fine. If TT had done the same thing we would be asking questions too about his inability to coach a set piece at the highest level.

Edited February 16, 20233 yr by LongtimerLurker

20 minutes ago, Argo said:

It's actually mind-blowing I'm hearing in many places how all we need is a number 9 and things will be great.

It's almost as if we didn't sign one the last two summers to disastrous results.

we need a proper manager and things will be better

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

It doesn't matter @just, you can't blame Jorginho anymore. I understand that you have a lot of support for your fellow countryman mr Potter but the fact is that he blundered and we lost because of it, it would be nice if you at least tried to stop including Jorginho in every conversation, Lampard also put Kante there that slipped and fully embarrased himself, it doesn't make it any less of a tactical blunder.

I shouldn't be surprised at this I suppose. And you have the nerve to call other posters hypocrites. 

18 minutes ago, Argo said:

It's actually mind-blowing I'm hearing in many places how all we need is a number 9 and things will be great.

It's almost as if we didn't sign one the last two summers to disastrous results.

I've been seeing the same. Just surface level nonsense really. 

3 minutes ago, just said:

I shouldn't be surprised at this I suppose. And you have the nerve to call other posters hypocrites. 

I just call you for what you are, you're trying so hard to defend Potter while at the same time you clearly blamed 1 person and 1 person only and now you're still trying not to smell the coffee, pretty pathetic isn't it?

After all, you blamed Jorginho while not blaming Kante and now you're not blaming Potter, let me guess, is it all Enzo's fault? 

Edited February 16, 20233 yr by Gol15

3 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

I've been seeing the same. Just surface level nonsense really. 

As I've just said in another thread one of my big complaints about Tuchel in his season and a half was how he fell into that trap, totally undone all his great work in constructing a system that created a sh*tload upto that point.

If last night is a sign of things to come this season in terms of chance creation but frustrating finishing I really hope Potter holds his nerve the way Tuchel didn't.

Edited February 16, 20233 yr by Argo

14 minutes ago, Argo said:

As I've just said in another thread one of my big complaints about Tuchel in his season and a half was how he fell into that trap, totally undone all his great work in constructing a system that created a sh*tload upto that point.

If last night is a sign of things to come this season in terms of chance creation but frustrating finishing I really hope Potter holds his nerve the way Tuchel didn't.

Completely agree, biggest criticism of Tuchel is he threw away a system that beat everybody to do what?! To try and score more, fair enough I get it you want an elite player to put the ball into the back of the net. However, rather than sign someone who has zero compatibility with your style of play maybe just maybe you coach your players into finishing better. I still think Timo could have gotten more clinical in front of goal. 

The sad thing is so many on here predicted it, Lukaku would be at least in some shape or form one of the reasons TT would get sacked if the transfer failed. It was such a fifa signing, Rom works in a back 3 system so will work for us.

The most painful part is, despite only getting a few touches per game and changing our style many forget we actually were thriving still. That is until Lukaku got injured, was out the team and TT chose to bring him back slowly and Lukaku and his big ego couldn't take it and thus began the slow unravelling of the harmonious lockeroom we had cultivated and slowly but surely led to our downfall amongst injuries, the war, the club sale etc.

Some will argue the 3241/3421 was going to get found out and would be less effective the following season, hence we had to adapt. Perhaps, but I think changing the style completely was a huge error in judgement and for such an intelligent man it surprises me he believed the cost of changing the system was outweighed by his perceived belief Lukaku would be enough for us to challenge for the epl title.

The worst part, when he rectified the mistake in bringing a player of Sterling's profile and PEA which suited the way he wanted to play he only got one game with PEA and 6 or so with Sterling. Football can be a cruel sport, but acknowledging when mistakes are made and learning from them is the most crucial part. The new ownership I pray won't ever make a Lukaku type signing.

10 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

. 

The sad thing is so many on here predicted it, Lukaku would be at least in some shape or form one of the reasons TT would get sacked if the transfer failed. It was such a fifa signing, Rom works in a back 3 system so will work for us.

The most painful part is, despite only getting a few touches per game and changing our style many forget we actually were thriving still. That is until Lukaku got injured, was out the team and TT chose to bring him back slowly and Lukaku and his big ego couldn't take it and thus began the slow unravelling of the harmonious lockeroom we had cultivated and slowly but surely led to our downfall amongst injuries, the war, the club sale etc.

 

That's what makes it even more outrageous, just a basic character assessment would have raised this red flag. He thought being peak Diego Costa's back up/competition as a 21 year old was beneath him for god sake.

I think that interview was actually made in and around that Juve home game which made it even worse as it meant he was sitting on the bench bitter about his team putting in their best performance of the season.

I don't actually think we were particularly thriving with our performances pre Lukaku getting injured. Villa at home was already a red flag to me, they were breaking our press so easily and creating chance after chance, that night we got away with it because Edou played like superman and Lukaku did take the little chances he/we got but it was clearly unsustainable and it came home to roost as little as two weeks later against both City and Juve. The warning signs were already there.

Edited February 16, 20233 yr by Argo

1 hour ago, just said:

@Gol15

You have chosen to ignore this already but it would be great if you could dissect and analyse the clip below from a managerial tactical viewpoint and then apportion the blame as you see fit. Something similar to what are doing with Potter for last night's goal. 

Incidentally, in case you missed it, this occured after 2015 at the Camp Nou.

 

If this was the video you were referring to in my post I'll do it for @Gol15 firstly yes TT can take some blame for leaving Jorgi by himself, yet I think there isn't really much to dissect here. Jorginho positioning is absolutely fine here and in reality it's a poor touch that results in the goal.

Either he boots it forward to try and keep the attack alive, passes back to keeper or clears for safety. All in all poor decision making from Jorginho in this instance, usually good in tight situations and has good ball control, he shows that professional footballers are humans and make mistakes, usually he would take that down with no issues.

From a coaching perspective, I'm annoyed at Jorginho if he's my player, he has space around him, but with players of Rashford and Sancho's pace approaching at speed he has to clear, there's no time to take a touch, because in that situation one bad touch and your are effectively out of the game. It's actually a very good scenario to learn from when coaching players as it shows them why decision making especially at the elite level is crucial. 

The craziest part though is if you freeze it when Jorgi takes it down (with one of the worst touches you'll ever see from him specifically and in the context a professional footballer in general) Sancho and Rashford aren't even in the frame.

It's insane how quick both players are, and to be able to capitalise on such a mistake highlights the importance of pace in the modern game, but also poor planning from the team in the way they set up. Whilst Jorginho positioning is good no one is even coming back to help, or not at a speed relevant enough.

Only one or two Chelsea players can be seen jogging back (I think Alonso is one and we all know his history with being caught on the counter) when we lose possession and by time I think it's Bruno or whoever boots that ball forward none of our players are even breaking their neck to get back they assume Jorgi has it under control pun intended. Overall really poor from Chelsea, but a great learning opportunity. A simple mistake, but costly Jorgi should clear, players should be coming back to support. I doubt Tuchel was impressed, but I think he takes would take responsibility for not drilling them to get back quicker

Edited February 16, 20233 yr by LongtimerLurker

39 minutes ago, Argo said:

As I've just said in another thread one of my big complaints about Tuchel in his season and a half was how he fell into that trap, totally undone all his great work in constructing a system that created a sh*tload upto that point.

If last night is a sign of things to come this season in terms of chance creation but frustrating finishing I really hope Potter holds his nerve the way Tuchel didn't.

Man City's Håland is now an example of such a luxury signing like Tuchel did when he signed Lukaku. He's there as the icing on the cake while the same core is still working around him.

14 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Man City's Håland is now an example of such a luxury signing like Tuchel did when he signed Lukaku. He's there as the icing on the cake while the same core is still working around him.

City are also still behind a relatively limited Arsenal team and have been relying on individual brilliance for a good while. They also look pretty one dimensional against any decent defence and rely on individual brilliance, mostly from Mahrez, to see them through. 

For a 100m signing City have somewhat gone backwards. 

Edited February 16, 20233 yr by Sconnie Blue

I get it...you can't blame GP for everything. But shouldn't we see some progress..like turning losses into draws......then draws into wins?  Not us we are stuck between losses and draws. He's had 6 months.  I see no progress.  His only saving grace will be when Kante comes back to save the day.  Still to this day no one has explained or put a case forward that Potter is a 'great' manager.   No one pundit, fan or anyone else can come up with how Potter was tagged with the word 'great coach'.   2 wins in 14 games is not great in my book....absymal perhaps.

 

3 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

City are also still behind a relatively limited Arsenal team and have been relying on individual brilliance for a good while. They also look pretty one dimensional against any decent defence and rely on individual brilliance, mostly from Mahrez, to see them through. 

For a 100m signing City have gone backwards. 

I fully agree.

1 hour ago, Argo said:

It's actually mind-blowing I'm hearing in many places how all we need is a number 9 and things will be great.

It's almost as if we didn't sign one the last two summers to disastrous results.

The funny thing is I think a striker would take us backwards, there aren't many great centre forwards out there that score a lot of goals from playing with their back to goal. If we want a striker to run onto the ball then we're not going to be creating many chances as our wingers don't like to play that deep, nor should they. 

We just need to get better as a team when it comes to playing together and ultimately finishing our chances better, a striker won't just fix that. Especially not one like Lukaku who just wants to run onto the ball constantly which with our stupid track record we'll no doubt seek for. 

This team needs to invest in midfield before it even looks at getting another striker. 

31 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

City are also still behind a relatively limited Arsenal team and have been relying on individual brilliance for a good while. They also look pretty one dimensional against any decent defence and rely on individual brilliance, mostly from Mahrez, to see them through. 

For a 100m signing City have somewhat gone backwards. 

And that's with Haaland breaking scoring records.

If he pulled a Lukaku or even had a mere good scoring rate City would be in a bit of a pickle right now.

The traditional 9 is an awkward fit in today's game even the elite ones. I think our best hope of a 20 a season player currently without comprising the structure is sticking Sterling as RF and playing him on the shoulder.

Edited February 16, 20233 yr by Argo

14 minutes ago, Victor90 said:

The funny thing is I think a striker would take us backwards, there aren't many great centre forwards out there that score a lot of goals from playing with their back to goal. If we want a striker to run onto the ball then we're not going to be creating many chances as our wingers don't like to play that deep, nor should they. 

We just need to get better as a team when it comes to playing together and ultimately finishing our chances better, a striker won't just fix that. Especially not one like Lukaku who just wants to run onto the ball constantly which with our stupid track record we'll no doubt seek for. 

This team needs to invest in midfield before it even looks at getting another striker. 

It depend on the st. You put Haaland right now with Felix behind him, you will see him scoring at will.