I suppose one positive from that first half is that for once we did not waste a single chance! Never mind if we had any at all 🙈

11 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

First of all he's using his players better and better, we have seen Gallagher scoring goals now which he is very much capable of doing as he has shown this ability while he was on loan and it's great to see him going forward as this is his natural game and not just to cover holes and win back possession?

Secondly, Poch is using Palmer in a really cool way, this could make him a future international star for the national team since Poch could make Kane grow into a very smart player already so Palmer might have found a perfect manager for him?

For the tactical part I do believe that we play faster and it looks like Poch tries to let his players have more space in attack in comparison to Tuchel that had a more static front line and playing Jackson more wide and managing to make Gusto a starter is showing a strong will to make all of the puzzle pieces work despite the injuries?

I kind of agree with you on Gallagher's case, he has improved this season. Now, whether that is down to Pochettino's coaching or down to Connor's attitude is up for discussion, but sure, I'll give you that. 

I think that Pochettino is misusing Palmer when playing him as false 9, like last night in the first half. Other than that, Palmer is a great player and he'd be shining under any coach, to be honest.

In addition, I think that many players are either stagnating or even getting worse under Pochettino (e.g. Enzo, Caicedo, Colwill...).

Overall, I don't think that Pochettino is improving us. We've certainly changed the style in comparison to last season, but this team would be better under a better coach. That's my opinion, anyway, and I hope that Pochettino proves me wrong.

32 minutes ago, RMH said:

I kind of agree with you on Gallagher's case, he has improved this season. Now, whether that is down to Pochettino's coaching or down to Connor's attitude is up for discussion, but sure, I'll give you that. 

I think that Pochettino is misusing Palmer when playing him as false 9, like last night in the first half. Other than that, Palmer is a great player and he'd be shining under any coach, to be honest.

In addition, I think that many players are either stagnating or even getting worse under Pochettino (e.g. Enzo, Caicedo, Colwill...).

Overall, I don't think that Pochettino is improving us. We've certainly changed the style in comparison to last season, but this team would be better under a better coach. That's my opinion, anyway, and I hope that Pochettino proves me wrong.

I think it's totally different from Gallagher shooting from distance vs him making a run inside the box, that looks like good coaching and this is how he was scoring when he was on loan in Palace. It might be that the simple way of giving Palmer so much freedom that could be the key for his further development even if Poch isn't doing it right at all times.

We have 10 wins and 10 losses, 41 goals scored and 40 goals conceded. Let's not concede more goals than under Lampard's first try because if we do that it's pretty obvious that we do need a better manager.

 

If its not the players it's the manager. 

Big result, players played until the death, the second half performance warranted the points. 

biggest difference between the first and second half were balls being played through the channels by centre half's into midfield as opposed to going for the wing. 

Is Poch working out his best 11, yes within reason given the injuries. 

What do wins give teams? Confidence. Is this teams starting to look more resilient, confident in what its doing? Yes.

A few more wins and we'll be pushing for a europa spot, which I'd take happily. Keep that blue flag flying high folks. the oil tanker is slowly turning. 

Connor’s goals are terrific annd welcome  and he is a good player, much more than a hard worker   but he isn’t a 10. Equally the attack hasn’t been sorted out and the defence won’t be until we move on from Silva. Palmer isn’t a false 9. 
 

it still comes back to the philosophy.  The team will improve but that’s despite Poch not because of him. A better manager would give Connor less minutes although still plenty and play nkunku or carney at 10. Outside of Palmer playing half a game there, which didn’t work we basically run the same three midfielders into the ground and achieve little. 

10 hours ago, ozboy said:

Connor’s goals are terrific annd welcome  and he is a good player, much more than a hard worker   but he isn’t a 10. Equally the attack hasn’t been sorted out and the defence won’t be until we move on from Silva. Palmer isn’t a false 9. 
 

it still comes back to the philosophy.  The team will improve but that’s despite Poch not because of him. A better manager would give Connor less minutes although still plenty and play nkunku or carney at 10. Outside of Palmer playing half a game there, which didn’t work we basically run the same three midfielders into the ground and achieve little. 

I agree in Silva moving on being somewhat positive. Against a low block team where he is the first player to make moves he is going full Serie A on pace. Against Palace he was the player most with the ball and he just stopped everything and didn't even try to recycle the ball with pace. 

On Pochettino..not sure what you have against him. I think he is a good coach in all aspects of the game. I think he is more of a man manager than a tactician per se. He wants to empower players to express themselves in a cetain way a bit like don Carlo. 

I agree there have been odd choices in terms of players and their positioning but I am sure there are internal reasons for those. We are not in the training ground or listening their conversations. 

Talking about running players into the ground...well City and Liverpool are basically then running their players into the ground week in week out. Due to resources City can manage that a bit better. 

I think Pochettino is choosing to find the core of the team instead of integrating everyone to the starting 11 at once. Basically the same as Pep and Klopp have done. Due to injuries however it has taken a ton of time and is still a work in progress. 

I think his main job first two, three seasons is to find the core, improve players. Mind you we are going to move players in and out every window. 

If we manage to get a cup win here a champions league spot there it is a plus. And if he succeeds to improve us as players and as a team, with the talent we have, success will come as the side product.

Talking about league table positions or trophies for this young side for me is way too early.

2 hours ago, evissy said:

I agree in Silva moving on being somewhat positive. Against a low block team where he is the first player to make moves he is going full Serie A on pace. Against Palace he was the player most with the ball and he just stopped everything and didn't even try to recycle the ball with pace. 

On Pochettino..not sure what you have against him. I think he is a good coach in all aspects of the game. I think he is more of a man manager than a tactician per se. He wants to empower players to express themselves in a cetain way a bit like don Carlo. 

I agree there have been odd choices in terms of players and their positioning but I am sure there are internal reasons for those. We are not in the training ground or listening their conversations. 

Talking about running players into the ground...well City and Liverpool are basically then running their players into the ground week in week out. Due to resources City can manage that a bit better. 

I think Pochettino is choosing to find the core of the team instead of integrating everyone to the starting 11 at once. Basically the same as Pep and Klopp have done. Due to injuries however it has taken a ton of time and is still a work in progress. 

I think his main job first two, three seasons is to find the core, improve players. Mind you we are going to move players in and out every window. 

If we manage to get a cup win here a champions league spot there it is a plus. And if he succeeds to improve us as players and as a team, with the talent we have, success will come as the side product.

Talking about league table positions or trophies for this young side for me is way too early.

But he isn't improving players and the way it is going will not do it neither in the future (bold part in your post), or are you telling me that the version of Enzo we're seeing at this point is better than last season or beginning of this one (that Liverpool home game)? Or Jackson, has he improved? The same applies to Mudryck, Madueke, Broja (before leaving on loan), Caicedo, Colwill, etc The only players that I can certainly see slightly improving have been Gallagher, Disasi and Gusto, though the latter two are more down to confidence and getting used to the PL than improving through coaching. 

Why Pochettino is wasting Enzo Fernandes...

 

Queue Bob saying "this is how Enzo always plays"...

9 hours ago, Gonoir Beniashile said:

Why Pochettino is wasting Enzo Fernandes...

 

It is scary how people analyze football this days. 

It is the same basically everywhere, if you don't play strict positional football, it mean you are wrong 

Edited February 15, 20242 yr by Bob stark

20 hours ago, RMH said:

But he isn't improving players and the way it is going will not do it neither in the future (bold part in your post), or are you telling me that the version of Enzo we're seeing at this point is better than last season or beginning of this one (that Liverpool home game)? Or Jackson, has he improved? The same applies to Mudryck, Madueke, Broja (before leaving on loan), Caicedo, Colwill, etc The only players that I can certainly see slightly improving have been Gallagher, Disasi and Gusto, though the latter two are more down to confidence and getting used to the PL than improving through coaching. 

Individuals improve when the collective is succeeding. You can't really separate those two aspects. Most of our players basically need to face "Everton" 6 times home and away = experience. The squad is so young and new to even to England and every aspect of it. I think Pochettino is good enough to steer this ship a couple of years. 

This is not the time to expect trophies but to find the core and gain experience. 

The challenge is the injuries, the pressure outside. Pochettino said he needs fans behind this project. I wholeheartedly agree. Our travelling fans especially have been amazing I think all through these hard times. 

Enzo for me is shaping into the Enzo we are going to see in the Premier League these next few years. I don't think Pochettino is improving him better or worse than someone else would have. Time and experiences are doing most of the work. Pochettino's role is to give him opportunities. 

6 hours ago, Bob stark said:

It is scary how people analyze football this days. 

It is the same basically everywhere, if you don't play strict positional football, it mean you are wrong 

So you didnt watch the vide then, goodo.

18 minutes ago, dkw said:

So you didnt watch the vide then, goodo.

The guy said Gallagher as 10 mean Enzo need to go up is a strange system. 

Mou did the same thing with cesc and Oscar and we won the league. 

Heck city even use their 10 (kdb) to create and their pivot (gundo) to crash the box. 

 

Edited February 15, 20242 yr by Bob stark

54 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Heck city even use their 10 (kdb) to create and their pivot (gundo) to crash the box. 

Pep would/will always make sure a defender is inverted to maintain the 3-2 base from which they build upon. Stones inverting was probably the key ingredient in their treble.

As a matter of fact almost all the best teams maintain a 3-2 shape these days. Klopp, Guardiola, Arteta, Xabi Alonso and most other managers that are currently impressing is doing it.

 

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

The guy said Gallagher as 10 mean Enzo need to go up is a strange system. 

Mou did the same thing with cesc and Oscar and we won the league. 

Heck city even use their 10 (kdb) to create and their pivot (gundo) to crash the box. 

 

You're comparing Conor Gallagher to Kevin de Bruyne? Might want to watch the video again.

4 minutes ago, Gonoir Beniashile said:

You're comparing Conor Gallagher to Kevin de Bruyne? Might want to watch the video again.

Surely he's comparing Enzo to KDB?

8 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Surely he's comparing Enzo to KDB?

No, because Gallagher is the 10 in our system which is referenced by the video and Bob himself who also references De Bruyne as the 10.

20 hours ago, OriginalS said:

Pep would/will always make sure a defender is inverted to maintain the 3-2 base from which they build upon. Stones inverting was probably the key ingredient in their treble.

As a matter of fact almost all the best teams maintain a 3-2 shape these days. Klopp, Guardiola, Arteta, Xabi Alonso and most other managers that are currently impressing is doing it.

 

We also built using 3-2 /4-1/4-2 shape. The difference is that Poch does not play strict positional football so the shape keep changing. Poch want some starting position and allow player to interpret space by themselves. 

What you truly want is to play strict positional which Pep/Arteta is using. Or maybe you want De Zerbi/sarri/Conte who play NFL style circuit ball where you play strict position and they will "tell" you where and maybe when to pass (tell here is not shouting as a poster here wanted poch to do). You did it by training your player. 

Btw Ancelotti does not play positional football. Ange doesn't play positional football. Klopp football is also not positional, it is too chaotic and too vertical to be one. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 20242 yr by Bob stark

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

We also built using 3-2 /4-1/4-2 shape. The difference is that Poch does not play strict positional football so the shape keep changing. Poch want some starting position and allow player to interpret space by themselves. 

What you truly want is to play strict positional which Pep/Arteta is using. Or maybe you want De Zerbi/sarri/Conte who play NFL style circuit ball where you play strict position and they will "tell" you where and maybe when to pass (tell here is not shouting as a poster here wanted poch to do). You did it by training your player. 

Btw Ancelotti does not play positional football. Ange doesn't play positional football. Klopp football is also not positional, it is too chaotic and too vertical to be one. 

 

 

I think most sides will have a few circuits built up that they use to play out from the back, which when you're dealing with your less creative players (CBs, DMs, GK etc) makes perfect sense. It's what happens in the final third that matters though imo.

I view Poch's style (and Ancelotti's, and Mourinho's) as one of "empowerment".  Players are empowered to make their own decisions. The learning curve for this is arguably steeper but I think if the players are capable enough at making correct decisions it is a better strategy for long-term success. We saw this with the spine of Mourinho's first team he built's continued success for a decade after he left. If the vision for this club right now is truly to build a squad that can dominate/compete for years once it reaches the peak of its powers, then moving to a circuit reliant coach would be damaging to that vision.

That's not to say you can't win anything with circuits, of course you can. But they have a shelf-life. Sarri's patterns at Chelsea were worked out relatively quickly (though Hazard tended to ignore them after about 60 minutes and go out and win games by himself). Conte's took about 18 months to get worked out when he was with us, and I think we're witnessing De Zerbi getting found out in real time right now.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/london-is-blue-chelsea-fc-podcast/id914691565?i=1000645425552
 

Listened to this from Matt Law. Interestingly he says that Poch will be fine if he wins the league cup or gets us into Europe. If he doesn’t get us into Europe, he thinks that there will be no guarantee that Poch will be here next season. Phillip Melo has also tweeted that we are scouting a new manager. 
 

Must admit, I wouldn’t want to see Poch go. I think he’s doing a good job under difficult circumstances and we have seen development. The club are bonkers if they think the club can compete for top 4-7 with this seasons squad. 

2 hours ago, cfr95 said:

I think most sides will have a few circuits built up that they use to play out from the back, which when you're dealing with your less creative players (CBs, DMs, GK etc) makes perfect sense. It's what happens in the final third that matters though imo.

I view Poch's style (and Ancelotti's, and Mourinho's) as one of "empowerment".  Players are empowered to make their own decisions. The learning curve for this is arguably steeper but I think if the players are capable enough at making correct decisions it is a better strategy for long-term success. We saw this with the spine of Mourinho's first team he built's continued success for a decade after he left. If the vision for this club right now is truly to build a squad that can dominate/compete for years once it reaches the peak of its powers, then moving to a circuit reliant coach would be damaging to that vision.

That's not to say you can't win anything with circuits, of course you can. But they have a shelf-life. Sarri's patterns at Chelsea were worked out relatively quickly (though Hazard tended to ignore them after about 60 minutes and go out and win games by himself). Conte's took about 18 months to get worked out when he was with us, and I think we're witnessing De Zerbi getting found out in real time right now.

 

If Pep and Klopp’s football are so strict then why is it arguably the most sustainable ?

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

If Pep and Klopp’s football are so strict then why is it arguably the most sustainable ?

I didn't mention Pep or Klopp

But (and I'll stress here I'm no expert, just a guy with a laptop and too much time on his hands), if we take Pep as an example I think the perception of his football and the reality of it are actually quite different.

Yes he has strict positional structure and set movements, but he's a) adapted his style several times to stay a step ahead, and b) still relied on individual brilliance and "empowerment" in the final third.
 
On a) in his days at Barca Pep played a 433, often with a false nine, he had small technical players, including some of the best CMs in the world (also, Messi), fast forward to last season, he finally won the CL again (his first sans Messi) after ditching a lot of his principles and essentially play a Ferguson-style 4-4-1-1. He's these days often playing 3 or 4 centre backs at once (Ake/Gvardiol in fullback, Stones sometimes in midfield) as well as Rodri and Haaland so that his teams can bully their opposition and win physical battles up and down the pitch (but apparently it's a problem when we play Colwill at left back). Also, let's not forget since getting the Barca first team job Pep has never once not had (on paper) the best team in any league he's competing in. It's easy to have a style that seems sustainable when you've got the best team and can cycle through £50m signings every window til you buy one that works (Where are Danilo, Phillips, Ferran Torres, Cancelo, Douglas Luiz etc playing their football these days?).

On b) Messi, Haaland, KDB, David Silva, Yaya Toure, even Balotelli and Aguero to an extent all had/have freedom to do as they saw/see fit in the final third. Yes City love to hit the byline and cut it back to someone arriving on the penalty spot, but if teams block that off the players get to problem solve and find new ways to score, rather than resetting to the base of the circuit and trying again (a-la Sarri).

I'd do a similar summation for Liverpool but if I'm being honest I've watched far fewer of their games than I have City's. I've never thought of Klopp as particularly circuit-y though, at least not where it matters (final third).

2 minutes ago, cfr95 said:

I didn't mention Pep or Klopp

But (and I'll stress here I'm no expert, just a guy with a laptop and too much time on his hands), if we take Pep as an example I think the perception of his football and the reality of it are actually quite different.

Yes he has strict positional structure and set movements, but he's a) adapted his style several times to stay a step ahead, and b) still relied on individual brilliance and "empowerment" in the final third.
 
On a) in his days at Barca Pep played a 433, often with a false nine, he had small technical players, including some of the best CMs in the world (also, Messi), fast forward to last season, he finally won the CL again (his first sans Messi) after ditching a lot of his principles and essentially play a Ferguson-style 4-4-1-1. He's these days often playing 3 or 4 centre backs at once (Ake/Gvardiol in fullback, Stones sometimes in midfield) as well as Rodri and Haaland so that his teams can bully their opposition and win physical battles up and down the pitch (but apparently it's a problem when we play Colwill at left back). Also, let's not forget since getting the Barca first team job Pep has never once not had (on paper) the best team in any league he's competing in. It's easy to have a style that seems sustainable when you've got the best team and can cycle through £50m signings every window til you buy one that works (Where are Danilo, Phillips, Ferran Torres, Cancelo, Douglas Luiz etc playing their football these days?).

On b) Messi, Haaland, KDB, David Silva, Yaya Toure, even Balotelli and Aguero to an extent all had/have freedom to do as they saw/see fit in the final third. Yes City love to hit the byline and cut it back to someone arriving on the penalty spot, but if teams block that off the players get to problem solve and find new ways to score, rather than resetting to the base of the circuit and trying again (a-la Sarri).

I'd do a similar summation for Liverpool but if I'm being honest I've watched far fewer of their games than I have City's. I've never thought of Klopp as particularly circuit-y though, at least not where it matters (final third).

Pep and Klopp have arguably the most sustainable systems in world football and they rely heavily on strict positioning and discipline, hence why I brought them up, as your argument is suggesting empowerment and freedom is more sustainable. Pep may adapt his style but the principles remain the same. Have players who are coached in what to do in certain situations. I also wouldn't go and confidently say Pep is overly reliant on empowerment in his attacking play, as from Walker, to Stones, to Foden, to Haaland, to Silva, etc, they all look like they know what they are going to do next in the attacking phase, be it overlapping/underlapping and how they maneuver past different situations. It's cohesive and in sync. This is something that is rigorously coached. Bayern fans were annoyed of how disciplined Pep's coaching methods were but he's essentially set the foundation for them to dominate the league for more than a decade. 

Poch in my opinion is giving far too much freedom and is essentially telling our midfielders to "trust your instincts" when now more than ever these young players (Enzo, Gallagher, Caicedo, Palmer) need guidance and coaching. When every match week, we as fans, punditry and analysts are going over our midfield problems, 7 months into the season, there lies a heavy issue within our coaching. 

2 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Pep and Klopp have arguably the most sustainable systems in world football

My question to you is how much of this is due to style of play and how much of it is having a strong structure in place above them (scouting, recruitment, board etc) allowing them to almost always have a competitive squad to work with?

SAF was closer in style to a Mourinho or an Ancelotti (in terms of empowerment vs circuits) and was tremendously successful for what felt like 100 years. Wenger too was all about attacking freedom and expression, went unbeaten over a whole season and later on would regularly drag a poor group of players into the CL places. Different styles and approaches come in and out of vogue, all I know is it's much harder to legislate for a player making their own decisions in attack than it is working out what patterns they're supposed to follow. The very best circuit coaches change their circuits up when they get found out, but those very top tier coaches don't grow on trees.
 

2 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Poch in my opinion is giving far too much freedom and is essentially telling our midfielders to "trust your instincts" when now more than ever these young players (Enzo, Gallagher, Caicedo, Palmer) need guidance and coaching. When every match week, we as fans, punditry and analysts are going over our midfield problems, 7 months into the season, there lies a heavy issue within our coaching. 

I respect your opinion here, but I disagree. I think there's been one or two times when positional freedom/interchanging hasnt worked very well (Jackson and Palmer swapping back and forth in the first half vs Palace for example), but that doesnt mean such things will never work. The worst thing you can do to young talent in my opinion is stifle their creativity and insist they play pre-planned little triangles and patterns. Will there be growing pains? Of course. But I'd rather go through some pain in the short term to hopefully grow into something really quite special than bring in another flavour of the month coach who will bore the players to death with repetitive training sessions.

Again though, that's just me. I see the argument against mine and it's totally valid, and obviously I'll still be supporting the club no matter what.

EDIT:
I tend not to look at the forum much over the weekends so apologies if you respond to this and I don't say anything for a few days @Sconnie Blue

Edited February 16, 20242 yr by cfr95
clarification

18 hours ago, cfr95 said:

I think most sides will have a few circuits built up that they use to play out from the back, which when you're dealing with your less creative players (CBs, DMs, GK etc) makes perfect sense. It's what happens in the final third that matters though imo.

I view Poch's style (and Ancelotti's, and Mourinho's) as one of "empowerment".  Players are empowered to make their own decisions. The learning curve for this is arguably steeper but I think if the players are capable enough at making correct decisions it is a better strategy for long-term success. We saw this with the spine of Mourinho's first team he built's continued success for a decade after he left. If the vision for this club right now is truly to build a squad that can dominate/compete for years once it reaches the peak of its powers, then moving to a circuit reliant coach would be damaging to that vision.

That's not to say you can't win anything with circuits, of course you can. But they have a shelf-life. Sarri's patterns at Chelsea were worked out relatively quickly (though Hazard tended to ignore them after about 60 minutes and go out and win games by himself). Conte's took about 18 months to get worked out when he was with us, and I think we're witnessing De Zerbi getting found out in real time right now.

 

Agree. 

There is no manager who is 100% circuit or 100% freedom. The bar is never all the way to left or right. 

@Sconnie Blue every single manager give player guidance and have structure. 

Sarri will tell you be in zone 2,pass to player a or b. 

Pep will tell you be in zone 2, you can't move. 

Poch will tell you be in zone 2 but it is OK for you to move if you see differently. 

Which approach is the best? I don't know. Each approach has its own benefit. 

Klopp is probably between poch n pep. It is rigid but very vertical

 

 

Edited February 17, 20242 yr by Bob stark