On 30/11/2019 at 19:06, Scott Harris said:

He was back to his worst today. He is very fortunate that the West Ham goal was disallowed because that was possibly the worst piece of defending I have seen in a long time. He literally ducked his head as the cross came in for the West Ham player to score a tap in.

You mean like Luiz did against Tottenham? 

The worst defending I have seen in a long time was Mr Curly Top against Norwich yesterday. He made Pukki look like Pele all game. It will remain the worst defending I have seen probably until I watch him again next week.

An absolutely abysmal defender under any sort of pressure, positionally one of the worst centre-halves to have ever kicked a football.

On 02/12/2019 at 21:44, just said:

You mean like Luiz did against Tottenham? 

The worst defending I have seen in a long time was Mr Curly Top against Norwich yesterday. He made Pukki look like Pele all game. It will remain the worst defending I have seen probably until I watch him again next week.

An absolutely abysmal defender under any sort of pressure, positionally one of the worst centre-halves to have ever kicked a football.

Just nobody gives a w**k about Luiz anymore, he isn't here. 

We need to focus on the now, we know exactly what Luiz brought here as a defender, Zouma is supposed to be better particularly in the air. Both of the West Ham goals Zouma was at fault, more James for the first one but Zouma could have done much better there, very slow to react, most defenders would be sticking a leg out as it's obvious he's going for a curler. The 2nd goal was a howler, I don't even know what he was trying to do, why on earth is he ducking? 

I loved Zouma's form before the international break, but that game was reminiscent of his earlier performances this season. The sooner Rudiger is back the better. 

Superb.

Thought Zooms was excellent tonight. 

Was good besides the end on that set piece, he didn't even bother jumping, completely misjudged the cross and luckily Kepa made a great save, that one was creeping in the bottom corner. 

Scrub

Form is back to what it was at the start of the season. He improved for a bit during our good run, now he's back to making mistakes no player worth his salt should be making. People may not like what I say, but he's like Titus Bramble, he has too many brain farts. 

Nobody can convince me that they are comfortable watching him play, he is on edge in almost every situation. The way he controls the ball, the way he passes, the way he reads the way the ball in the air, his clumsy last ditch defending. He's got disaster written all over him in almost every situation he is involved in. 

I know he has a lot of fans, but I just don't see a top 6 CB. He's a mid table player at best. The only reason Lampard keeps picking him is because he is strong and quick. 

Feel for him, looks to me like he's being asked to play in a position that he isn't entirely comfortable with. Sell two of either Rudiger, Zouma, Christensen imho.

Edited December 7, 20196 yr by the special one

I am glad that the transfer ban is gone. Zouma needs to go - I dont think he fits Chelsea's style.

Love the guy for his personality but we should do a swap deal for Ake

Think we all like Zouma and hoped he might be the answer. He will have good games, even the odd exceptional one but the hard facts are, for a club of our stature and looking to challenge for trophies, he is just not good enough, not by a long way.

 

3 hours ago, the special one said:

Feel for him, looks to me like he's being asked to play in a position that he isn't entirely comfortable with. Sell two of either Rudiger, Zouma, Christensen imho.

Centre back ?

3 hours ago, Deino said:

Love the guy for his personality but we should do a swap deal for Ake

Ake is just as worse but can score a few goals besides if we do sell zouma i would like someone world class and not just slightly better.

5 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Think we all like Zouma and hoped he might be the answer. He will have good games, even the odd exceptional one but the hard facts are, for a club of our stature and looking to challenge for trophies, he is just not good enough, not by a long way.

 

I see him as a good backup. He had decent games and he was doing well even when Kepa passes him and makes him under pressure for example.

45 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Centre back ?

Left sided or right sided - from a centre back's point of view they're different positions. For Zouma the right side is instinctive.

 

Edited December 7, 20196 yr by the special one

4 hours ago, Nibs said:

Think we all liked Luiz and hoped he might be the answer. He would have good games, even the odd exceptional one but the hard facts were, for a club of our stature and looking to challenge for trophies, he was just not good enough, not by a long way.

 

I understand. We don't want to make the same mistake twice nibs, but I do feel Zouma has something more to offer. A balanced view? His positives have out-weighed the negatives. Can't write him off yet I think.

The more pressing problem for me is the lack of a genuine physical presence in our midfield, and the resulting failure to turnover the ball and dominate that area. Get that sorted and I believe you will see our back line protected much better. We are too lightweight in midfield.

Edited December 7, 20196 yr by just

6 minutes ago, just said:

I understand. We don't want to make the same mistake twice nibs, but I do feel Zouma has something more to offer. A balanced view. His positives have out-weighed the negatives. Can't write him off yet.

Can we really afford to take that risk? With Tomori he's 21 and looks like he has bags of potential. Zouma is 25, he can certainly improve but right now he's not Chelsea level and whenever he plays with a new partner or in the other CB position he looks out of his depth again, becomes completely erratic. 

In the last few games alone he has made some bad mistakes, even against Villa, didn't even jump with that player, if Kepa doesn't make a save that's two points lost. 

2 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Can we really afford to take that risk? With Tomori he's 21 and looks like he has bags of potential. Zouma is 25, he can certainly improve but right now he's not Chelsea level and whenever he plays with a new partner or in the other CB position he looks out of his depth again, becomes completely erratic. 

In the last few games alone he has made some bad mistakes, even against Villa, didn't even jump with that player, if Kepa doesn't make a save that's two points lost. 

Slojo you rave about Kovacic but he has only just begun to show a consistency that makes people think he might realise his promise. His age. Same as Zouma. 25.

It's still relatively young. Especially for a centre back.

3 minutes ago, just said:

Slojo you rave about Kovacic but he has only just begun to show a consistency that makes people think he might realise his promise. His age. Same as Zouma. 25.

It's still relatively young. Especially for a centre back.

Difference is we signed Kovacic from a really good team knowing his prime was yet to come, and he wasn't making endless mistakes last season. Zouma hasn't been the same since that injury when he was 19, he's been out on a series of loans since. You can make mistakes in midfield, but at the back you can't, defenders and goalkeepers have to be sharper than every other outfield player. 

Zouma did look promising under Mourinho, but he had one very nasty injury and I've not seen that same 19 year old since. We are conceding goals like mad, that's why I'm asking, can we really afford to give Zouma a chance and not sign a better alternative? 

26 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Difference is we signed Kovacic from a really good team knowing his prime was yet to come, and he wasn't making endless mistakes last season. Zouma hasn't been the same since that injury when he was 19, he's been out on a series of loans since. You can make mistakes in midfield, but at the back you can't, defenders and goalkeepers have to be sharper than every other outfield player. 

Zouma did look promising under Mourinho, but he had one very nasty injury and I've not seen that same 19 year old since. We are conceding goals like mad, that's why I'm asking, can we really afford to give Zouma a chance and not sign a better alternative? 

He was stellar for Everton last season. Go back and look on any of their fans forums. They were desperate to sign him. Conversely Kovacic had a dire season last year. Your differentiation on the two players over the course of last season doesn't hold up under scrutiny there.

Also, you regularly defended David Luiz, ( I know we are not supposed to give a w**k about him now), and his middle name is actually "mistakes" . I can't find any consistency whatsoever in how you viewed Luiz's defending at the time, (I use defending in the loosest sense of the term there), against Zouma's now. 

I would add I am not sure Zouma will be the centre half to take us where we want to go. But as I said in my last post, his positives have definitely out-weighed his negatives Slojo. And in a team that is a bit lightweight and desperately lacks sheer physical presence, Zouma is the one player who has it.

Edited December 7, 20196 yr by just

9 minutes ago, just said:

He was stellar for Everton last season. Go back and look on any of their fans forums. They were desperate to sign him. Conversely Kovacic had a dire season last year. Your differentiation on the two players over the course of last season doesn't hold up under scrutiny there.

Also, you regularly defended David Luiz, ( I know we are not supposed to give a w**k about him now), and his middle name is actually "mistakes" . I can't find any consistency whatsoever in how you viewed Luiz's defending at the time, (I use defending in the loosest sense of the term there), against Zouma's now. 

I would add I am not sure Zouma will be the centre half to take us where we want to go. But as I said in my last post, his positives have definitely out-weighed his negatives Slojo. And in a team that is a bit lightweight and desperately lacks sheer physical presence, Zouma is the one player who has it.

He didn't have a dire season at all, you're in the minority there. Seems like you have an axe to grind with me since you keep bringing up all this stuff about Luiz when it isn't relevant, it's okay being wrong on Kovacic, I know you haven't admitted it yet, but just let it go. 

I've just explained why the comparison with Zouma and Kovacic doesn't hold that much weight, but obviously that argument has gotten nowhere, all I'm going to get from you is "David Luiz" or "Kovacic"... 

I think until we get Rudi back or buy a better player then Tomori with Zouma is probably our best pairing.

5 minutes ago, Slojo said:

He didn't have a dire season at all, you're in the minority there. Seems like you have an axe to grind with me since you keep bringing up all this stuff about Luiz when it isn't relevant, it's okay being wrong on Kovacic, I know you haven't admitted it yet, but just let it go. 

I've just explained why the comparison with Zouma and Kovacic doesn't hold that much weight, but obviously that argument has gotten nowhere, all I'm going to get from you is "David Luiz" or "Kovacic"...

Really? Again? What are you? 7?

I have already posted this but it seems you missed it. No arguing those figures, as voted by us all last season. So obviously not in the minority.

And why are you trying to spin it anyway? 

Look, I'm out at this point. Please just give Zouma a tiny smidgen of the faith and support you have shown those other two players, who I won't name, because one I hate, and the other is now irrelevant. Apparently.

3 minutes ago, just said:

Really? Again? What are you? 7?

I have already posted this but it seems you missed it. No arguing those figures, as voted by us all last season. So obviously not in the minority.

And why are you trying to spin it anyway? 

Look, I'm out at this point. Please just give Zouma a tiny smidgen of the faith and support you have shown those other two players, who I won't name, because one I hate, and the other is now irrelevant. Apparently.

No MOTM awards? That's your argument? Come off it. I was on this forum last year and people were split on him, not mostly against, only a few say he was awful and that's you. If it were up to you we would still be playing Barkley and Kovacic wouldn't be here, the most Barkley has done this season is drop his chips in the back of a taxi. 

Your argument here is trying to prove how I'm a hypocrite, not addressing any of my points, hence why you keep bringing up Luiz and Kovacic, you brought them up, not me, so no I'm not spinning it. And okay, likewise, how about you show a 1/10 of the faith you have in Zouma into one of our best players this season, Kovacic. Because you're still yet to admit that you're wrong on that one, and I haven't seen you in that thread other than when you went in there to say he's no Michael Essien he hasn't scored any goals, since then he has scored two. If you ask me I think you should go in there and say he's no Messi next time, do us all a favour. 

Usually I'm a defender of Zouma, but his lack of technical ability and awareness is really alarming for this stage of his career. Everytime a ball comes to him with a bit of speed, he looks like having trouble controlling it. If the pass is a slightly misplaced, he's not seeing it or unable to get hold of it. He's 25, supposedly to be a senior player in this young team, for god sake. Kepa made a mispass, but you'd think most competent players would see the pass and runs for it, at least boot it out of the touch line. He just paused, hands up and wait for the attacker to run past him. If he did anything slightly right, we would not have conceded. Game after game, we have seen him unable to control a pass, it's getting to a point of despair. I reckon Lampard didn't have a go at the defenders, because he knews these guys are playing out of their league, and any harsh worlds would just break them