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1 hour ago, Slojo said:

People actually said him and Barkley were on the same level, absolute madness. 

Yes and there are those who STILL don’t want to let it go. I have an impeccable ‘voting record’ on Kovacic - had followed him before and knew how much talent he had, while realising that his failure to impress last season was down primarily to lack of match experience (all that time on the bench). On the other hand, I was wrong about Jorginho and horribly wrong (ie v sceptical) about Lampard. I have no problem admitting that. Why is it such a problem for people to say they got something wrong? 

1 hour ago, Vagabond said:

I knew Kova since his time at Inter and was delighted when he joined on loan. That's why I've been defending him to the point of being annoying. 😛

Glad to see people are starting to see the light.

In fairness, last season he was very stagnant, I thought the criticism he got was over the top, especially the Barkley comparisons. But you can see why people were disappointed, he wasn't offering anything in attack, whereas with Barkley he was at least driving forward and getting involved in the attack and taking risks. Kovacic this season though is doing that, he's getting involved in just about everywhere. 

And he isn't even that old, hasn't he just turned 25? Real signed him for a reason, so did Inter, he was a wonderkid before he went to Inter Milan and he looked very good for them that's why Real signed him. Sadly he never really blossomed into the Real team but when you look at the players they have it's not really a major criticism. 

I think with the way Sarri wanted Kovacic to play it didn't really bring the best out of him, his ball retention and distribution this season has been fantastic, his work rate and defensive skills have also improved. I think at this stage right now he might actually even keep RLC out of the team but Ruben does offer a lot more in attack, it will be good to rotate with those two players, I'm really looking forward to it. Signing him was a great move we made, as somebody pointed out earlier if we didn't sign him I doubt we would have the momentum we are having now given that we have 2 of our key midfielders injured and Barkley is also getting knocks and just hasn't thrived next to Jorginho at all. 

Gotta admit, when he signed on a permanent deal, I was disappointed. Last year, we didn’t really see anything to suggest he would be worth signing. 

But credit to him, he’s having a blinder of a season so far. 

Seems like Lampard is getting the best of Kovacic. His faith in him actually works, Kovacic looks like a different player from the last season, he is fully confident and playing the game very well. 

Feel one of the issues last season was that Kovacic was in a role where he was expected to score goals and add an attacking threat which isn't really his game. He seems to be playing slightly deeper this season and the improvement has been massive. He's never going to score goals or carve open defences but he's got great work rate, is press resistant, good technical ability and one of the best in the League at carrying the ball forward

Him and Jorginho have developed a very good relationship in the middle for us

I can't believe there were people who wanted to keep Bakayoko and hellbent on not signing Kovacic.

5 minutes ago, Sparkz said:

Feel one of the issues last season was that Kovacic was in a role where he was expected to score goals and add an attacking threat which isn't really his game. He seems to be playing slightly deeper this season and the improvement has been massive. He's never going to score goals or carve open defences but he's got great work rate, is press resistant, good technical ability and one of the best in the League at carrying the ball forward

Him and Jorginho have developed a very good relationship in the middle for us

Disagree re carving open defences. He’s been playing some great through balls, it’s just that they haven’t resulted in goals so go unnoticed. Can’t argue on the goal scoring though one would think he has to score sooner or later just based on the law of averages.

One of the most underrated players in the league, some of the social media fans who purely go on stats rather than actually watching a game criminally underrate him and Jorginho. 

Hate it when media state facts such as so & so hasn't scored for x matches, that is clearly not there job especially in the system that Lampard plays where we have 4 genuinely attacking players. 

In real world terms it's a case of criticising the HR department for not making any Sales. 

2 hours ago, Slojo said:

In fairness, last season he was very stagnant, I thought the criticism he got was over the top, especially the Barkley comparisons. But you can see why people were disappointed, he wasn't offering anything in attack, whereas with Barkley he was at least driving forward and getting involved in the attack and taking risks. Kovacic this season though is doing that, he's getting involved in just about everywhere. 

And he isn't even that old, hasn't he just turned 25? Real signed him for a reason, so did Inter, he was a wonderkid before he went to Inter Milan and he looked very good for them that's why Real signed him. Sadly he never really blossomed into the Real team but when you look at the players they have it's not really a major criticism. 

I think with the way Sarri wanted Kovacic to play it didn't really bring the best out of him, his ball retention and distribution this season has been fantastic, his work rate and defensive skills have also improved. I think at this stage right now he might actually even keep RLC out of the team but Ruben does offer a lot more in attack, it will be good to rotate with those two players, I'm really looking forward to it. Signing him was a great move we made, as somebody pointed out earlier if we didn't sign him I doubt we would have the momentum we are having now given that we have 2 of our key midfielders injured and Barkley is also getting knocks and just hasn't thrived next to Jorginho at all. 

I wouldn't even say he was stagnant since it was the first time in 4 seasons where he got regular game time, in a new league with a lot less space. Imo both him and Jorginho just needed some time to adapt and both started to get much better at the end of last season under Sarri. They turned out to be important players in a very successful season (got 3rd behind sh*tty and the Scousers and won the EL despite the somewhat depressing atmosphere around the club).

At Inter he was given the number 10 and was supposed to be the future of the club, but had to be sold because of mismanagement and FFP. He went to Madrid for personal reasons, he was a big fan of Modric and wanted to play with him. This turned out to be almost catastrophic for Kovas career since Zidane only ever rotates when his starting XI are injured or suspended and it definitely isn't based on merit with him. James Rodriguez and Isco suffered the same fate and are still benchwarmers there... no matter how well James plays in Modrics absence.

We will see what the future brings. I personally think he's a lot better than Ruben (there, I said it!) from a footballing perspective, but Ruben offers more physicality and more threat. With the number of fixtures these are nice problems to have in midfield though. Let's just hope everybody gets fit again and don't make the same mistake with RLC that we did with N'Golo, who was rushed and is out for far longer than he needed to be.

Edited October 27, 20196 yr by Vagabond

6 hours ago, Slojo said:

People actually said him and Barkley were on the same level, absolute madness. 

That is madness Slojo! Last season Barkley was clearly better. Most games you didn't even notice when Kova was on the pitch until he was subbed for Barkley, (or the other way round), in Sarri's usual 75th minute standard tactical substitution. 

Not this season though. Like every other player from Alonso to Willian to Jorginho to Kova a he is flourishing under Lampard 's system. Will he be a first choice starter when Kante, Barkley and RLC are fit and available? I don't think he will, which will be tough on him because he is playing immeasurably better than he did at anytime last season. Glad he is in the squad now and that is U-turn from me because I really didn't want us to buy him in the summer.

3 hours ago, Vagabond said:

 

We will see what the future brings. I personally think he's a lot better than Ruben (there, I said it!) from a footballing perspective, but Ruben offers more physicality and more threat. 

 

6 hours ago, Slojo said:

I think at this stage right now he might actually even keep RLC out of the team but Ruben does offer a lot more in attack, it will be good to rotate with those two players, I'm really looking forward to it. Signing him was a great move we made, as somebody pointed out earlier if we didn't sign him I doubt we would have the momentum we are having now given that we have 2 of our key midfielders injured and Barkley is also getting knocks and just hasn't thrived next to Jorginho at all. 

I think Loftus-Cheek will compete with Mount and Barkley for the central and more offensive midfield position, Kovacic will compete with Jorghy and Kante for the deep laying midfield duo.

No point to put RLC on the same tasks as Kovacic that's just wasting his talent as he can offer much much more. The problem is that he's injured but once he comes back he's going to create so much space for Hudson-Odoi, Pulisic, Tammy, Willian...Ruben at his best ability shown so far, is head and shoulders above Kovacic, in every possible sense but again, he's just injured for too long.

1 hour ago, just said:

That is madness Slojo! Last season Barkley was clearly better. Most games you didn't even notice when Kova was on the pitch until he was subbed for Barkley, (or the other way round), in Sarri's usual 75th minute standard tactical substitution. 

Not this season though. Like every other player from Alonso to Willian to Jorginho to Kova a he is flourishing under Lampard 's system. Will he be a first choice starter when Kante, Barkley and RLC are fit and available? I don't think he will, which will be tough on him because he is playing immeasurably better than he did at anytime last season. Glad he is in the squad now and that is U-turn from me because I really didn't want us to buy him in the summer.

Clearly better by what metric? 

You might not have noticed him on the pitch, I certainly did, but I've even just said afterwards that last season Kovacic was very static in the midfield, but the talent was all there, we seen it in the cup final. 

And will he first choice starter when Kante, Barkley and RLC are fit and available? Kante and RLC possibly, but Barkley? You're having a laugh surely? He has been one of the few disappointing players this season and hasn't performed up to standard besides his game against Grimsby. 

19 hours ago, Deino said:

A Kanté, Kova, Jorginho midfield on form is the best in the Prem for sure.

Its a great midfield for big games and could actually help us compete in the CL this season.

However the bread and butter league games it has to be two of them plus Mount/Ruben, there's not enough between the three in the final third against the lesser lights in this league.

7 hours ago, Slojo said:

In fairness, last season he was very stagnant, I thought the criticism he got was over the top, especially the Barkley comparisons. But you can see why people were disappointed, he wasn't offering anything in attack, whereas with Barkley he was at least driving forward and getting involved in the attack and taking risks. Kovacic this season though is doing that, he's getting involved in just about everywhere. 

And he isn't even that old, hasn't he just turned 25? Real signed him for a reason, so did Inter, he was a wonderkid before he went to Inter Milan and he looked very good for them that's why Real signed him. Sadly he never really blossomed into the Real team but when you look at the players they have it's not really a major criticism. 

I think with the way Sarri wanted Kovacic to play it didn't really bring the best out of him, his ball retention and distribution this season has been fantastic, his work rate and defensive skills have also improved. I think at this stage right now he might actually even keep RLC out of the team but Ruben does offer a lot more in attack, it will be good to rotate with those two players, I'm really looking forward to it. Signing him was a great move we made, as somebody pointed out earlier if we didn't sign him I doubt we would have the momentum we are having now given that we have 2 of our key midfielders injured and Barkley is also getting knocks and just hasn't thrived next to Jorginho at all. 

I don't think Kova is competing with Ruben, he's the alternative to Jorginho and Kante.

Edit:see this has already been covered.

Edited October 27, 20196 yr by Argo

Just now, Argo said:

I don't think Kova is competing with Ruben, he's the alternative to Jorginho and Kante.

Ruben for Mount? 

1 minute ago, Slojo said:

Ruben for Mount? 

I think it will be Kovacic covering any Kante or Jorginho abscense with Mason and Loftus competing for LCM, apart from the very biggest games where we may go Jorginho, Kova, Kante.

Barkley will be further depth for both the two side CM positions.

19 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Clearly better by what metric? 

You might not have noticed him on the pitch, I certainly did, but I've even just said afterwards that last season Kovacic was very static in the midfield, but the talent was all there, we seen it in the cup final. 

And will he first choice starter when Kante, Barkley and RLC are fit and available? Kante and RLC possibly, but Barkley? You're having a laugh surely? He has been one of the few disappointing players this season and hasn't performed up to standard besides his game against Grimsby. 

I think with Kante fit, midfield trio of Kovacic, Jorginho and Kante picks itself. They’ve earned it until proven otherwise. Maybe Barkley can fill in for kova or kante if injured or needing a rest, or even a specific type of opposition. I agree with post above that RLC when fit will be vying for a place in the advanced 3, and that’s where the dilemma lies (so many competing), not the midfield. Maybe comparing Kova and RLC is futile as they have different key strengths. Kova can’t match RLC for power/goalscoring, but when it comes to ball control/technique in tight spots, is there anyone in the league that’s better than Kova?

8 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Ruben for Mount? 

I think so

Kova, jorginho and Kante for the same positions in midfield for me. RLC should not play that deep.

RLC has to start when he is fit though. He is a step above any of the other attacking midfielders imo. 

Right now us having 2 CM's in our midfield, Jorginho and Kovacic, we seem to be dominating the midfield battles and playing well. 

How the hell are we supposed to incorporate Kante (arguably our best player), RLC, Mount and Barkley (undeserved) trying to fight for that spot?

I would say ideally our best 3 man midfield would be Jorg, Kova and Kante. But RLC last season was great when he was playing, and Mount this season has been great so far as well. 

12 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Kova, jorginho and Kante for the same positions in midfield for me. RLC should not play that deep.

RLC has to start when he is fit though. He is a step above any of the other attacking midfielders imo. 

The issue is, where would he play?

We have a very good problem now in midfield and I am loving it didn't think we would be arguing over which of our on form midfielders we need to start loving it [emoji4]

I think we have plenty of matches left in the season to share the game time around and fortunately we have a great deal of variety in the options available that it could almost be a case of horses for courses.

I would play the different options as follows:

Kova-Jorg-Kante = Against tougher oppositions who are most likely to attack and try to win the midfield battle (Liverpool, City, Arsenal)

Kova/Kante-Jorg-Mount= Against weaker oppositions who are more likely to park the bus allowing us to deviate between a 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3

RLC-Kova-Kante= Against more physical midfields

I think Frank will deviate between all the options available to him & having RLC available would just add to the options available off the bench. I think RLC will have a major say for us this season as I think he will truly get up to speed for the last 1/3rd and hopefully by than we will be in the latter stages of some cup competitions and his freshness may work in our favor.

1 hour ago, PlayDaYouf said:

The issue is, where would he play?

 

18 hours ago, Gol15 said:

 

I think Loftus-Cheek will compete with Mount and Barkley for the central and more offensive midfield position, Kovacic will compete with Jorghy and Kante for the deep laying midfield duo.

No point to put RLC on the same tasks as Kovacic that's just wasting his talent as he can offer much much more. The problem is that he's injured but once he comes back he's going to create so much space for Hudson-Odoi, Pulisic, Tammy, Willian...Ruben at his best ability shown so far, is head and shoulders above Kovacic, in every possible sense but again, he's just injured for too long.