Brilliant post @WeatherMan Perfectly summed up!

Hit clubs with financial penalties as it was a financial position the legalities that took place! Even with Everton and City!

10 hours ago, WeatherMan said:

I may be in a minority here but to me it seems points deductions and possible relegation punishes the innocents in all of this.  The fans played no part in any possible breaches of the rules, nor did the current playing staff or the current owners who actually reported the matter to the authorities it would seem.

Where was all the 'due diligence' supposedly carried out by the government and the regulatory football bodies overseeing the sale of the club when Roman was sanctioned ?  I thought that was the whole point of making sure everything was above board and watertight in terms of previous financial dealings ?

I stand to be corrected but I believe Clearlake even set aside £100m to deal with any possible financial punishment for any alleged rule breaches by the previous ownership. League table positions should only be determined by results over the course of a season, not some random body of 'regulators' who seem incapable of regulating anything, let alone the fate the fate of a football club.

If we are found guilty of rule breaking so be it,  impose a financial penalty but a points deduction or heaven forbid, relegation would be a total distortion of the league table and make a mockery of the game which is rapidly becoming a farce.

 

 

The point is, the latest apparent improprieties weren't on the Chelsea books. They were kept off the books for obvious reasons. They have come to light via hacks and leaks of data from myriad quite separate Abramovich companies. 

Bit of a worry all this. I feel like we would have escaped the self reported stuff with a fine due to the goodwill of reporting it ourselves but the Cyprus documents seem to have thrown a spanner in the works and it seems that the greatest sins lie there. The EPL can and will probably argue that those breaches have helped to put us in the successful position we were in under Roman and they could very well have a point there looking at it objectively. From what i'm reading in for example The Times a point deduction sounds likely.

In additon to that there is also the current and future compliance challenges. Having spent a bit of time looking at our financial outlook for 22/23 (results will be public this summer) and 23/24 it's increasingly hard for me to see us not breaching the rules when Champions League football looks unlikely next season as well. And now the precedent is set with a 10 point deduction for a pretty small loss over the allowed limit with Everton. It could be that the owners made a calculated bet on the punishment being fines as many had reported up until now.

Edited November 18, 20232 yr by OriginalS

6 minutes ago, OriginalS said:

Bit of a worry all this. I feel like we would have escaped the self reported stuff with a fine due to the goodwill of reporting it ourselves but the Cyprus documents seem to have thrown a spanner in the works and it seems that the greatest sins lie there. The EPL can and will probably argue that those breaches have helped to put us in the successful position we were in under Roman and they could very well have a point there looking at it objectively. From what i'm reading in for example The Times a point deduction sounds likely.

In additon to that there is also the current and future compliance challenges. Having spent a bit of time looking at our financial outlook for 22/23 (results will be public this summer) and 23/24 it's increasingly hard for me to see us not breaching the rules when Champions League football looks unlikely next season as well. And now the precedent is set with a 10 point deduction for a pretty small loss over the allowed limit with Everton. It could be that the owners made a calculated bet on the punishment being fines as many had reported up until now.

Well summed up. 🤙

We will undoubtedly get a points deduction and if we do it’s impossible for City to not get one unless the entire FA is bent.

Edited November 18, 20232 yr by El regreso

2 hours ago, Modueke said:

Brilliant post @WeatherMan Perfectly summed up!

Hit clubs with financial penalties as it was a financial position the legalities that took place! Even with Everton and City!

Means nothing to the rich though Mod. If all it ever is is fines Newcastles owners can go out and spend far more than anyone else could, offer 1mill a week to the best in the world, them pay the fines out of their toilet paper fund money while Newcastle bag treble after treble.

1 minute ago, axman2526 said:

Means nothing to the rich though Mod. If all it ever is is fines Newcastles owners can go out and spend far more than anyone else could, offer 1mill a week to the best in the world, them pay the fines out of their toilet paper fund money while Newcastle bag treble after treble.

Fair there Ax, but then they need to highlight the charges first if they issue points deductions. Maybe start it from a date. So any club doing that sh*t from 2024, then xyz points deduction for a xyz charge. Issuing charges as they just see fit isn't the way to go.

20 minutes ago, Modueke said:

Fair there Ax, but then they need to highlight the charges first if they issue points deductions. Maybe start it from a date. So any club doing that sh*t from 2024, then xyz points deduction for a xyz charge. Issuing charges as they just see fit isn't the way to go.

Rules apparently change in a few years to be the same as Uefas, one would imagine the same charges then too, maybe, though punishments for league competitions have to be different.

I see how a lot of the football world is at it again. When Roman, and therefore we, were sanctioned they mostly all wanted us relegated to the none league and sent out of existence.

Now they want it again for these alleged breaches.

While these allegations are troubling, my understanding is that they have been dug up and leaked to the press via an independent investigator. It will likely take some time for the authorities to validate their accuracy, and to determine whether they breach FFP rules. from what I have seen some of the allegations relate to money from Roman to Putin which would be unrelated to football matters. But certainly there are some (e.g. Hazard, Conte, Willian) that will need to be looked into. If they determine that these alleged payments occurred and were not reported, then they will also have to determine whether they would have pushed us over the limits for FFP in the years they occurred. So this could be a long, drawn out process.

If we do get some sort of non-financial punishment (e.g. points etc.) where does that leave Clearlake? They would argue that their case that they were sold the club under certain conditions and had presumably made agreements to pay certain amounts based on their own internal investigations. But also they agreed to the terms of a 10 year minimum ownership before resale but I wonder if there were clauses written in to make that null and void should certain unforeseen circumstances arise? A lot of unknown factors at the moment. Inevitably the press are going to spin this to sell stories. We will just have to be patient and see how it turns out.

The club god banned from making transfers when it was revealed that a bunch of youngsters got to play through some loop holes and what not and that happened already a long time ago...

I don't see why would it matter how payments for Willian or Eto'o were made, 10 years after. The club's owner was forced to give away the club already, give it a rest I doubt that in this football business there aren't real things to chase after that are happening right now. 

I agree, either City or us getting punished and it is the start of the Super League. 

I bet Madrid, Barcelona, Paris and the Italian clubs are rubbing their hands at the thought of it. 

How about an investigation into FIFA, Uefa and the FA, I sure there's plenty of dodgy dealing to uncover there. Let's see how they like it.

Could you imagine all the dirt and corruption that would bring out, blimey, it’d kill football!

This is a long post so apologies 

First it’s important to be mindful that since Adam was a boy money has changed hands in football with out it going through the books.

 

Even when it’s gone through the books it’s not properly been accounted for.
 

From players images rights ,to boot money to wife’s getting well paid jobs with no obligation for them to do a days work. To agents being paid by both the club and the players the “ work arounds” have been there and unless the FA, PL and UEFA have some sort of mechanism ( which they won’t have ) to add back sums HMRC rule has paid by clubs in respect of say benefits in kind outside of the terms and conditions of the players contract then just about every club will be guilty of paying sums outside the sums recorded 

Everton have been as we know been hit with a 10 point penalty that almost certainly will be reduced on appeal.
 

They were shown little mitigation when it came  to their sanction they clearly manipulated the submissions to the PL and whilst they did very late in the day admit they overspent it’s worth noting that over the monitoring period their accounting losses were way north of £300 million but when sums allowed were deducted the sums for P&S overspending were circa £120 million 

City have already had 115 charges levied against them. They have , it is claimed, put obstacles in the way of the PL investigation including trying to challenge unsuccessfully , the PL process in the HC. They continue to fight the PL case.Indeed a significant number of their charges are around failing to assist with the PL

It’s really worth factoring in that CAS ruled that UEFA could not go back over the years certainly not back to 2012 as matters were, in accordance with UEFA  statutes time; barred. Cities punishment really wasn’t anything other than a fine for not complying.UEFA were poor when it came to following up leaked emails 

So to us.

First the UEFa settlement is in respect of 2012/2019 and followed self disclosure to all the relevant football bodies. We have no idea what was disclosed but we know it is up to 2019. That is interesting because if falls around the time that RA withdrew his application for a visa.

Is that relevant?  Not so sure but I very much doubt tha RA will open up his books for the PL and thinking something is wrong and proving it aren’t one and the same particularly if a third party won’t engage with an internal PL / FA matter.

Much of  what is appearing now in those leaks is pre 2019 and we have absolutely no idea if it was what was discovered during DD by Bohley . If it is then it’s inevitable that a FA charge ( not necessarily a charge from the PL ) is likely simply because the PL rules are subservient to the FA and we won’t be charged twice for the same “ crime”Also factor in that many of Cities charges relate to FFP submission’s to the PL who in effect act as agents for UEFA and its UEFA who have acknowledged the amended the incorrect submissions 

It’s possible that we are in problems if some of the sums not disclosed are added back . But only if over  the 3 or 4 years we exceeded £105 million loss but I think that we have seen some clever actions by Bohley such as including such huge write off  in players values which like the depressed income filling RAs sanctions do foggy the waters significantly when claiming exceptional matters within FFP& PS submissions. Go back to Evertons accumulated losses £300+ million in the accounts but only £120 million for FFP purposes.

Then you have mitigation. We have self  disclosed matters we  aren’t able to insist on RA answering or indeed won’t have access to his records and that is key.

I do think as a minimum we will get a fine and possibly a points deduction possibly as many as 20 points reduced on appeal but we have already admitted much so the charge will be processed pretty quickly but any punishment will be significantly less than City will be facing and here’s the kicker my guess is it will be dealt within months 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 20232 yr by terraloon

20 points though could finish the club for the foreseeable! Either way at the end of this or the start of next season!

The club have been punished enough let alone bringing in stuff for a board that are no longer here! …. And I believe he/they got punished enough for having the club illegally stolen from them!

59 minutes ago, Modueke said:

20 points though could finish the club for the foreseeable! Either way at the end of this or the start of next season!

Given how poor the promoted clubs are we'll probably get away with it.

On 18/11/2023 at 11:41, Modueke said:

Brilliant post @WeatherMan Perfectly summed up!

Hit clubs with financial penalties as it was a financial position the legalities that took place! Even with Everton and City!

In the written reasons the independent commission talked about the imposition of penalties and said there was absolutely no point as it did little to deter non compliance. To be fair they have a point.

The simple fact that we have already admitted incorrect information is a point but here’s where things clash because it’s highly likely that had we not self reported then many  of the issues would have remained hidden. If the authorities come down hard on matters by way of a too excessive points deduction then there would be absolutely no way any other club will ever put their hands up in the future. Mitigation is key.

As I said in my earlier post I won’t be at surprised if we get 20 point deduction but reduced on appeal . This is the perfect season ( if there is ever one) to have any RA issue’s dealt with) because the bottoms 3 clubs won’t get over 25 points meaning. It’s what will save Everton even if they get the 10 point deduction confirmed.

Edited November 19, 20232 yr by terraloon

23 hours ago, dermott said:

The point is, the latest apparent improprieties weren't on the Chelsea books. They were kept off the books for obvious reasons. They have come to light via hacks and leaks of data from myriad quite separate Abramovich companies. 

And good luck trying to prove matters if RA doesn’t engage with the authorities and all they are basing any charges on would be ( save the ones we have admitted) hacked emails, rumours and innuendo 

Would they really be able to punish Chelsea without paperwork from the clubs records or being able to prove even on the balance of probabilities?

On 18/11/2023 at 12:36, El regreso said:

We will undoubtedly get a points deduction and if we do it’s impossible for City to not get one unless the entire FA is bent.

think the FA is as bent as a Met police officer. the FA, the governing bodies in Spain, (Barca paying refs) UEFA and FIFA... See the second World Cup in the Middle East. The game doesn't know how to handle money anymore. loopy money makes folk do loopy things. 

Still technically haven’t been charged yet. 

4 hours ago, Modueke said:

20 points though could finish the club for the foreseeable! Either way at the end of this or the start of next season!

The club have been punished enough let alone bringing in stuff for a board that are no longer here! …. And I believe he/they got punished enough for having the club illegally stolen from them!

I doubt 20 points will relegate us, but I also think as much as the authorities will want to punish us (and city) they won't actually want to relegate us. 

2 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I doubt 20 points will relegate us, but I also think as much as the authorities will want to punish us (and city) they won't actually want to relegate us. 

At the moment it would mean us bottom on negative 4 points. Would need a considerable upturn in form, especially at home, to go from that to the magic 40 point mark.

How would our players take it as well? They are young, not experienced anything like this. Being in this position is normal for Everton and their fans are going to react by making their home a hell pit, how would ours react?

3 hours ago, terraloon said:

And good luck trying to prove matters if RA doesn’t engage with the authorities and all they are basing any charges on would be ( save the ones we have admitted) hacked emails, rumours and innuendo 

Would they really be able to punish Chelsea without paperwork from the clubs records or being able to prove even on the balance of probabilities?

They had no problem convicting JT after his acquittal in court. Their burden of proof is pretty low.

14 minutes ago, Backbiter said:

They had no problem convicting JT after his acquittal in court. Their burden of proof is pretty low.

That’s comparing apples with pears. 

Where did this random 20 points conjure up from?

We still haven’t been charged and as many have already alluded to, right now it’s about proving the validity of these alleged leaked transactions and if they helped us bypass FFP penalties.  Proving without a reasonable doubt this happened will already be difficult (cooperation with exiled Roman and beneficiaries) so the club receiving just a fine is highly possible.