Can’t believe a few are already discontent with Lampard after 2 games into the season with so many key players out and no preparation.

F*cking fickle the lot of you. (The ones who are not happy with Lampard.)

4 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

Can’t believe a few are already discontent with Lampard after 2 games into the season with so many key players out and no preparation.

F*cking fickle the lot of you. (The ones who are not happy with Lampard.)

I'm literally avoiding twitter, social media, here even at times due to the constant negativity, it is frustrating to see or read.

7 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

Can’t believe a few are already discontent with Lampard after 2 games into the season with so many key players out and no preparation.

F*cking fickle the lot of you. (The ones who are not happy with Lampard.)

Its the same gobsh*tes who moaned that we keep changing managers and not playing the young lads, probably while saying "look at Liverpool and Klopp, we need to do that". Weve lost one game against the current champions and now the gobsh*tes are all over it. 

24 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

No, he wasn't a proven winner, Klopp had won nothing for nearly 10 years and then it was 2 league titles and their FA Cup.  Nothing in Europe as far as I can find out.  People should stop over-venerating the man - he was OK, but not great and took a long time to get the dippers to anywhere.  AND they still have only done as well as Blackburn in the league.

Klopp got Mainz 05 promoted to Bundesliga 2003-2004 season after taking charge in 2001( Experience). Won back to back Bundesliga against the mighty Bayern 2010-2011-2011-2012 with the youngest team to win the Bundesliga.  Won German supercup in 2008 beating Bayern.

So got a team promoted, won league agaist Bayern, took Dortmund to CL Final equal win record in Bundesliga and points total

So thats pretty good  CV and experience if you ask me.

Key here is how long he spent at mainz05 before taking a top job.

 

Also last team to win Bundesliga outside Bayern Klopps Bortmund...

Edited September 21, 20205 yr by Brutos

2 hours ago, Brutos said:

Every time I see this comparison I shake my head Klopp was proven winner 

Not when he initially rocked up at Dortmund he wasn't (infact he had a relegation to his name) so by that logic they should have sacked him when they had a rough start and replaced him with a "proven winner" like Felix Magath.

Also by that logic United should have given both Van Gaal and Jose more time, likewise Liverpool/Dalglish and Arsenal/Emery, if only!

3 minutes ago, Argo said:

Not when he initially rocked up at Dortmund he wasn't (infact he had a relegation to his name) so by that logic they should have sacked him when they had a rough start and replaced him with a "proven winner" like Felix Magath.

Also by that logic United should have given both Van Gaal and Jose more time, likewise Liverpool/Dalglish and Arsenal/Emery, if only!

You mean after getting Mainz promoted to the Bunesliga?

5 minutes ago, Brutos said:

You mean after getting Mainz promoted to the Bunesliga?

So if we appointed Slavan Billic, Neil Warnock or Dean Smith you'd be happy to give them more time than Lampard based on they fact they've won promotion?

1 minute ago, Argo said:

So if we appointed Slavan Billic, Neil Warnock or Dean Smith you'd be happy to give them more time than Lampard based on they fact they've won promotion?

No because we look an the entire CV you are selectievly forgetting he won back to back Bundesliga setting records....reach CL final and lost

he paid his dues in the lower leagues gain invaluable experience which am sure is helping him now.

Edited September 21, 20205 yr by Brutos

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

He already gave him a yellow though. The rules say that yellow cards are not checked, not even if it's a second yellow. I know that it's a red but then he should have waited first and then after reviewing just give him a red. 

I would love some clarification on this rule too. However I have already seen cases before this one where a card was changed from yellow to red following a VAR review. Great example being the game right before it (Newcastle vs. Brighton). In that case Bissouma swung a wild back kick trying to contest a ball and ended up hitting Jamal Lewis in the head. Ref originally gave a yellow for dangerous play but it was upgraded to red following a review and nobody really complained. As long as this is consistently applied I think I am ok with the rule if it results in the accurate punishment. The only question mark here is whether a yellow was fair under the circumstances.  Although a few of us (with a bit of bias) would probably say a yellow was reasonable, I think most would agree the Christensen had little grounds for appeal under the circumstances.  Mane would have almost certainly scored unless he lost control of the ball. But at that point of the game Christensen should have let that scenario play out. We could have gone in 0-1 at HT and regrouped with 11 players. May have been the same outcome but it is a lot more realistic to chase a game when you still have 11 v. 11.

2 minutes ago, Brutos said:

No because we look an the entire CV you are selectievly forgetting he won back to back Bundesliga setting records....reach CL final and lost

he paid his dues in the lower leagues gain invaluable experience which am sure is helping him now.

Point i'm making is, Dortmund didn't have back to back Bundi's as a reference point when he had a slow start there, so what did they look on to make them think he could do it with them at that stage? If you're saying because of a promotion then that brings me back to the point about those managers i mentioned in my previous post.

You have to look at the pitch and the projected end product. Yes i grant you, there's aspects of Frank's management that need polishing up on if he's to ultimately make it here but there's also been exciting encouragement (some of our games last season were amoung the best performances in years) where he's shown he has it in him. Put it this way, if someone says to me in 4 years time either Frank at Chelsea or Jose at Spurs will win the league there's only one man my money's going on and it's not the one who's won it before. 

25 minutes ago, forbzy said:

I would love some clarification on this rule too. However I have already seen cases before this one where a card was changed from yellow to red following a VAR review. Great example being the game right before it (Newcastle vs. Brighton). In that case Bissouma swung a wild back kick trying to contest a ball and ended up hitting Jamal Lewis in the head. Ref originally gave a yellow for dangerous play but it was upgraded to red following a review and nobody really complained. As long as this is consistently applied I think I am ok with the rule if it results in the accurate punishment. The only question mark here is whether a yellow was fair under the circumstances.  Although a few of us (with a bit of bias) would probably say a yellow was reasonable, I think most would agree the Christensen had little grounds for appeal under the circumstances.  Mane would have almost certainly scored unless he lost control of the ball. But at that point of the game Christensen should have let that scenario play out. We could have gone in 0-1 at HT and regrouped with 11 players. May have been the same outcome but it is a lot more realistic to chase a game when you still have 11 v. 11.

@Gol15

The rule is clear. 

Is the action a straight red card decision?

Yes. That's it. In all cases that has been applied. Same with the Brighton game before it. 

Or to make it clearer, the decision is not whether the referee was right to give a yellow. The decision is whether the referee was wrong to not give a straight red. 

 

FYI - It was 100% a red card. It was clear as day. You even say "Mane would almost certainly have scored". That means it's a red. 

Edited September 21, 20205 yr by bisright1

1 hour ago, dansubrosa said:

Can’t believe a few are already discontent with Lampard after 2 games into the season with so many key players out and no preparation.

F*cking fickle the lot of you. (The ones who are not happy with Lampard.)

The season has just started and the reigning Champions taught us a lesson. Nothing to be ashamed about, and most of our new signings haven't played yet.

At least we now know there's a lot we need to improve on to narrow the gap between us and the big 2.

6 hours ago, dkw said:

- Tactics - Liverpool are the current league champions and are possibly the best team in europe, they are also a very settled side playing to a tactic set by theur manager they have used for 3/4 seasons and are totally in tune with it. we are a side with new players coming in and still settling into a playing style that a relatively new manager is trying to build, of course we are going to play to contain Liveprool as much as try and win. This was definitely working in the first half as we stifled their creativity and made it so they had no chances, while we had a few decent ones, and at least one we should really have scored from. This all collapsed after the red card and Kepa`s latest brain fart. If Lampard had set up to attack and we had been picked of then you and your ilk would have moaned he  had also got that wrong.

- Selection - why is he a clown exactly? This just shows your pathetic agenda against him and your "amazing insight" is entirely clouded by this. Mount didnt play left wing, same as Havertz didnt play right wing, or Werner didnt play centre. Nothing shows me someone is clueless as this kind of garbage, seeing a graphic on Sky showing a player there does not mean he will play there, and certainly does not mean he will constantly be there all game. All three of our attackers roamed the pitch, they were constantly interchanging, taking turns to drop deep, if anything we played an almost 2 up front in Havertz and Werner with Mount behind them.

- Fitness -Absolute garbage, many other teams have looked under-prepared and lethargic, this weekend we saw Arsenal getting schooled by West Ham, Utd looked totally of the pace, even Leciester in the first half looked shonky. Last week Liverpools midfield and defence was a shambles and totally out paced by Leeds.

- Availability - So players being injured is now Lampards fault? All based on Liverpool signing a player who played? Of our players who couldnt play one was down to isolation and not being ready, two was were carrying an injury from last season, only one had gotten injured while at the club, and that was while playing. 

- Decision Making - The mistakes are made by several players, so is he to stop  picking them all? Maybe he should play some 17 year olds in central defence then as all of our centre backs have made mistakes leading to goals.

- Predictability - several times last season Lampards half time talk totally changed our side leading to very early goals and an impetuous that lead to wins also.

- Leadership/Character/Spine - Agree with this, thats why we have brought in Silva and are looking to bring in Rice, we lack vocal leaders on the pitch, thats obvious.

 

I'm not going to get into a back and forth with you, especially given your rude and insulting comments, but do want to address a few items here.  Completely missing my point.  This isn't a dig against Frank, but an assessment of items I do think he has to be accountable for.  I'd love nothing more than Frank to be a success at Chelsea for years to come - not entirely sure where you think this "pathetic agenda" stems from.  I am just frustrated by Chelsea continuing to make the same mistakes.  That's all.  The patterns are more concerning for me at this stage than others.  Last 5 games is 1W, 1D, 3L.  The devil is in the detail as even in that solidarity win Brighton outplayed us.  

- Tactics - I would have preferred a more attacking/balanced line up.  Agree we had contained Liverpool well until the red card, but we offered too little during the half also.

- Selection - the reference to clown was Kepa, not Frank.  First game Mount was LW, Timo C, Kai RW.  I am unsure why he rotated that against Liverpool to Timo LW, Kai C, Mount RW.  Patterns of play and heat maps support this, and I did not see the level of roaming you indicate.  I did see Mount get sucked deeper given the threat of Mane and Robertson.  To clarify though, this isn't clueless garbage sourced from Sky - that's not even available to me and I seek my clueless garbage from other broadcasters :)

- Availability - not directly Frank's fault, but if I were him (and assume he is), I would be pressing my medical, sports scientists, nutritionists and whomever else contributes, on why, generally speaking, we seem more challenged in this area (beyond new signings; look at Kante over last season as an example)

- Decision Making - Alonso's lack of pace is not a decision; its an attribute, as are many other items (like midfield 3's lack of creativity).  AC and Kepa were the items of reference - I do not think they are Chelsea quality but am not advocating for 17 year olds to take their place (not sure where that came from either)

Again, the result is somewhat irrelevant as this game was always going to be a little too early for this Chelsea.  This is a marathon, not a sprint and I am sure Frank will find the balance, integration of new players, and results.  The manner of the defeat is what stood out to me.  I guess that makes me one of the gobsh*tes as you say!  Cue insults.

 

Edited September 21, 20205 yr by PhilH930

13 minutes ago, PhilH930 said:

- Selection - the reference to clown was Kepa, not Frank.  First game Mount was LW, Timo C, Kai RW.  I am unsure why he rotated that against Liverpool to Timo LW, Kai C, Mount RW.  

I do. Mount to track Robertson, Werner to try and take advantage of the space Trent leaves in behind and Havertz to play the 'Firmino role'. Called it the second the lineup came out that it was what we were going to do.

32 minutes ago, Argo said:

I do. Mount to track Robertson, Werner to try and take advantage of the space Trent leaves in behind and Havertz to play the 'Firmino role'. Called it the second the lineup came out that it was what we were going to do.

Yes that's a good point.  Not sure many have the pace on Trent, but given the space and Werner's pace that makes sense. 

It will come, but front 3 in any combination (and without creativity we need from Pulisic and Ziyech) looks quite flat in in early days.  I'm struggling to think of many clear chances we've been able to create - goals have been from a penalty, corner and a wonder strike.  Again, fully believe it will come with availability and some time.

 

 

Edited September 21, 20205 yr by PhilH930

1 hour ago, bisright1 said:

@Gol15

The rule is clear. 

Is the action a straight red card decision?

Yes. That's it. In all cases that has been applied. Same with the Brighton game before it. 

Or to make it clearer, the decision is not whether the referee was right to give a yellow. The decision is whether the referee was wrong to not give a straight red. 

 

FYI - It was 100% a red card. It was clear as day. You even say "Mane would almost certainly have scored". That means it's a red. 

Thanks for confirming. So basically a ref cannot give or rescind a yellow card based on a VAR. Only a red.

3 hours ago, forbzy said:

..................................... Mane would have almost certainly scored unless he lost control of the ball. ................................................................

Mane never had control of the ball at any point - he was at least5-10 yards away from the ball and Kepa got to it before Mane could have even if he had been running on his own.  That's why I think it was a very harsh red, but Christensen was stupid to give the referee and VAR twat the opportunity to send him off.

7 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

Mane never had control of the ball at any point - he was at least5-10 yards away from the ball and Kepa got to it before Mane could have even if he had been running on his own.  That's why I think it was a very harsh red, but Christensen was stupid to give the referee and VAR twat the opportunity to send him off.

I got no problem with him challenging for the ball, he had to do something, but someone needs to tell him this is football not wrestling.

Tired of when people attack people's rights to an opinion. If Frank's a legend to you, fine. He probably is to most, if not all those that critique him. Doesn't mean you're any more a "proper" fan than them. 

Really annoying when people say stupid judging him on one season, one game, two games, no pre-season, no full compliment of team, etc. 

Sod that, you can draw a comparative analysis on how a man will act/react/adjust to a particular situation based on their primary characteristics/inclination without being in that particular situation. That's why it's called a forecast or analysis or review/preview. 

Calling a spade what it is, the man cannot set up a defence (now and based on his antecedents) or said differently, his preferred defensive style doesn't suit his personnel. 

Wonder why someone having such a view is a problem? AVB came and basically played against the strengths of his squad in a team Legend Frankie played in and was rightly called out and paid the ultimate price with his job. You think it should be a different outcome against the backdrop of modern football?

10 minutes ago, coco said:

I got no problem with him challenging for the ball, he had to do something, but someone needs to tell him this is football not wrestling.

Yes he was always running the risk of a red card when he used his hands like that. Looking at the replay I think Mane would have just nicked the ball past Kepa although it was also very possible that Kepa then takes out Mane with his momentum. In hindsight losing Kepa to a red card instead might have helped us ;).

If Mane goes around Kepa and stays on his feet AC potentially would still have a chance to make a challenge and save a goal. It was a long way out and although Mane is an excellent player he still had a fair bit to do.

On 21/09/2020 at 17:48, abister1 said:

Calling a spade what it is, the man cannot set up a defence (now and based on his antecedents) or said differently, his preferred defensive style doesn't suit his personnel. 

 

You haven't seen improvement so far this season? I have.

Defensively we were brilliant against Brighton and we deserved a clean-sheet. Against Liverpool we were also excellent defensively for 45 minutes until a stupid individual mistake cost us and we had to play a half with ten men. Did decently enough even then conceding one goal the defence can be blamed for. The last one all down to Kepa of course.

To me the signs are positive in terms of where we are going with the defence. Silva and Chilwell will strengthen us significantly also so I think you are jumping the gun with the whole can't set up a defence thing.

4 minutes ago, Sindre said:

You haven't seen improvement so far this season? I have.

Defensively we were brilliant against Brighton and we deserved a clean-sheet. Against Liverpool we were also excellent defensively for 45 minutes until a stupid individual mistake cost us and we had to play a half with ten men. Did decently enough even then conceding one goal the defence can be blamed for. The last one all down to Kepa of course.

To me the signs are positive in terms of where we are going with the defence. Silva and Chilwell will strengthen us significantly also so I think you are jumping the gun with the whole can't set up a defence thing.

 I agree there are some promising signs, especially with set pieces. I would certainly like to see how we fare defensively with a better keeper, and Thiago/Chilwell in the mix.

Frank has made multiple mistakes already this season. He will continue to do so and that is just the learning curve of a manager. What he done last season with that squad was remarkable however the one thing we were all in agreement with, was that the entire backline had to be changed. We have started the first two games with the same defence and goalkeeper. This isn’t good enough and if that’s Frank’s decision, or someone higher, that’s inexcusable. 
 

Frank has to be given time though. It’s idiotic comments like ‘he will be gone by Christmas’ are helpful to no one. 
 

One thing that really did piss me off though was the inferiority complex against Liverpool. Liverpool!!!  Parking the bus against a team who lost 3 goals to newly promoted Leeds at Anfield. We should have pressed high and battered them from the off but we sat back and invited the best attacking team in the league to batter us. That was never going to end well but again, I hope he learns from it. 

51 minutes ago, forbzy said:

Yes he was always running the risk of a red card when he used his hands like that. Looking at the replay I think Mane would have just nicked the ball past Kepa although it was also very possible that Kepa then takes out Mane with his momentum. In hindsight losing Kepa to a red card instead might have helped us ;).

If Mane goes around Kepa and stays on his feet AC potentially would still have a chance to make a challenge and save a goal. It was a long way out and although Mane is an excellent player he still had a fair bit to do.

It's a big blunder from Christensen regardless if he had prime Banks or Kepa on goal, losing 1:0 is nothing compared to being left with 10 men for the rest of the game.

I believe that if Christensen just managed to have a little bit more pace he could have stopped Mane from getting to the ball ahead of Kepa without using his arms to tackle him...

'

If he just uses his body and not arms all over Mane, Kepa might have been there to clear the ball. Christensen lost the duel and then completely surrendered with getting sent off, he's simply not Chelsea material.

Edited September 21, 20205 yr by Gol15

Personally think Kepa is getting to the ball at least at the same time as Mane. If anything with the force they are both running Andrea's saved them both from potential injury. 

It was a stupid decision though. He knew what he was doing a deliberately brought Mane to the ground and he did not need to. If it was at the other end I would be livid had it not been a red card.

Edited September 21, 20205 yr by axman2526