1 hour ago, ducavis said:

Last season with virtually the same defence bar Luiz we kept 16 clean sheets in the league.  This season with the addition of Tomori, Zouma & Reece James we have 5 clean sheets in 27 games, which makes us joint 15th in the league.

Sorry but the issue isn’t a personnel one, the setup is all wrong.

If your'e comparing seasons, you shouldn't forget the variables.

Sarri didn't have to cope with an injury crisis, Rudiger, Kante, RLC and CHO, have all missed most of the season, and were all key players for Sarri.

Sarri had a fit Eden Hazard all season playing wonderful football, showcasing himself for Real Madrid.

Sarri only had EL football to worry about, largely playing pub teams, including the final.

Would keep Tomori as he's still young and can grow. Sell the other 3 as they've been given so many chances and they just can't hack them prem. All 3 of these CB's sold should get us at least 80m, possibly more.

Sign 1 world class CB and another good CB, let Tomori grow into the role and also can call back Ampadu from loan who seems to be playing solid and give him more game time as well

 

There you go being sensible and reasoning again @coco

You'll not last long in here

I guess you're saying we should buy Van Dijk then...

Am saying unless we can sign demonstrable better than what we have it's pointless going for the same. People will just complain in a years time that we need new defenders not looking at the system.

I'd keep Tomori and Christensen and start playing them together now to build a partnership.

Zouma and Rudiger I would move on.

2 minutes ago, Brutos said:

Am saying unless we can sign demonstrable better than what we have it's pointless going for the same. People will just complain in a years time that we need new defenders not looking at the system.

It's called evolution mate. Our defence has played in several systems this season. Time to stop blaming Lampard and start facing facts. Rudiger is not a good football player, he's a great warrior, and i don't like knocking warriors, but he's not very good at positioning and certainly not comfortable with the ball. Christensen is pretty much the opposite of Rudiger, a bit soft, but not a bad ball player, and has good positional awareness. Zouma is very much like Rudiger. Tomori is still growing and reminds me of Gallas.

So going forward i would only keep Tomori and Christensen, both who can actually play football and have decent awareness, just need to toughen them up a lot more.

46 minutes ago, coco said:

If your'e comparing seasons, you shouldn't forget the variables.

Sarri didn't have to cope with an injury crisis, Rudiger, Kante, RLC and CHO, have all missed most of the season, and were all key players for Sarri.

Sarri had a fit Eden Hazard all season playing wonderful football, showcasing himself for Real Madrid.

Sarri only had EL football to worry about, largely playing pub teams, including the final.

He still had to keep those clean sheets while playing more EL games against said pub teams right? We also seem to have a bigger squad now, if I am not mistaken Cahill hardly played any games and Ampadu was our 4th choice CB.

All in all 5 clean sheets in 27 games  is way off 16 clean sheets in 38 games. 

It's called evolution mate. Our defence has played in several systems this season. Time to stop blaming Lampard and start facing facts. Rudiger is not a good football player, he's a great warrior, and i don't like knocking warriors, but he's not very good at positioning and certainly not comfortable with the ball. Christensen is pretty much the opposite of Rudiger, a bit soft, but not a bad ball player, and has good positional awareness. Zouma is very much like Rudiger. Tomori is still growing and reminds me of Gallas.
So going forward i would only keep Tomori and Christensen, both who can actually play football and have decent awareness, just need to toughen them up a lot more.

And when the new average defenders fail what do we do then?

1 minute ago, ducavis said:

He still had to keep those clean sheets while playing more EL games against said pub teams right? We also seem to have a bigger squad now, if I am not mistaken Cahill hardly played any games and Ampadu was our 4th choice CB.

All in all 5 clean sheets in 27 games  is way off 16 clean sheets in 38 games. 

If we go with your theory and say its the system, that means Frank is to blame and he needs to change, or we need to change him.

But what if we just for once not change the manager, and allow them to do a crazy thing and build a team of his own and give him time and more time to build something long term ?

 

1 minute ago, Brutos said:

And when the new average defenders fail what do we do then?

Same as what Liverpool/City did, stop sacking managers and start backing them.

Rudiger has been a little disappointing tbh. I think Zouma, Christensen and Tomori are our best CBs now. I used to believe Rudiger was, and he still does have good performances, but he also has gaping weaknesses. Not sure who we can bring in though. 

46 minutes ago, coco said:

If we go with your theory and say its the system, that means Frank is to blame and he needs to change, or we need to change him.

But what if we just for once not change the manager, and allow them to do a crazy thing and build a team of his own and give him time and more time to build something long term ?

 

No one is saying change him, my point is what if he just can’t  organise a defence? Checked his Derby stats and they only kept 11 clean sheets in 46 games; you ask a Derby fan and they would say they were fantastic going forward, but shambolic defensively so it might not just be his thing. 

I just find it hard to believe all 4 CBs and the GK can’t do better than they are and have to be binned. Personally I feel his tactics defensively are suicidal, but I am not saying bin him.

Edited February 27, 20206 yr by ducavis

Same as what Liverpool/City did, stop sacking managers and start backing them.

Who said anything about sack him.

 

The issue we have is a tactical issue, this has been analysed so many times and been shown to be true transition from attack to defence is horrendous and thats not just players that's tactics too.

 

Whenever we lose the ball we look like conceding every single time, is that all down to the players?

 

49 minutes ago, coco said:

Same as what Liverpool/City did, stop sacking managers and start backing them.

That's it, we need to actually give a manager time to build a team or we have a group of players who are all suited to a different style of football and the merry go round of managers continue as they struggle to create a team that works for them.

The benefits are there to be seen in Jose's first stint, that team pretty much got us through a decade or the spine of it at least. Then if you have a squad suited to a style of play you simply hire managers who play that way.

20 minutes ago, Brutos said:

Who said anything about sack him.

The history books.

Is their a video of all the goals weve conceded this season?, then you could see how many of those goals weve conceded due to individuals losing personal battles, or errors in judgement, things Lampard cannot account for pre-match, we didnt concede those gaols becasue the gaffers system needs tweaking. How could Lampard account for Rudiger getting done by Maguire ?

Or Kante slipping over?

Linked with Upamecano from leipzig today. I like the look of him alot, although i would prefer a more experienced centre back to come in. 

I’d ship off Zouma if we’re buying a proper upgrade, he just never looks comfortable with the ball at his feet unlike the other 3 which is as important as defending with our current ‘aimless passing around the back four’ tactics. 
 

Edit: Also, defending starts with the attacks, we are rubbish at holding the ball up and we don’t use it well enough in the final third meaning we face a lot of counter attacks. 

Edited February 27, 20206 yr by Munkworth

4 hours ago, Brutos said:

Am saying unless we can sign demonstrable better than what we have it's pointless going for the same. People will just complain in a years time that we need new defenders not looking at the system.

We need better players, sure we need better coaching but it's all easier with better players, the best ones you don't even need to coach that much...So whatever improvement we can find it's great, I don't expect us to find a new Van Dijk/Terry/Vidic or whatever but a real good defender we should be able to find otherwise it doesn't matter who's the manager when the whole club is clueless...

When we sell Emerson and get a real good LB people that complain about the new player will be wrong for doing it, if he's clearly good and clearly better than Emerson then people should complain about the system or something else and not about the player but having a better player there is a must.

I want to say sell everyone except tomori but its impossible to make such an overhaul in the summer so I'd say sell andreas and zouma and sign two quality CB's. If rudiger improves he can challenge the new ones, if not, we sell him next summer.

7 hours ago, enigma said:

Rudiger has been a little disappointing tbh. I think Zouma, Christensen and Tomori are our best CBs now. I used to believe Rudiger was, and he still does have good performances, but he also has gaping weaknesses. Not sure who we can bring in though. 

This will probably sound controversial and harsh but IMO Rudiger is a bit overrated. Before he came back from injury a lot was expected from him but he hasn't done much since he came back, in fact he has been getting worse in the last few games. I'd argue that Tomori had better games when he was starting for us in the first half of the season despite some of the errors he made. I like the guy but I just don't think he should be a starting defender if we eventually want to close the gap with the topl, he should be 3rd or 4th choice at best.

5 hours ago, Munkworth said:

I’d ship off Zouma if we’re buying a proper upgrade, he just never looks comfortable with the ball at his feet unlike the other 3 which is as important as defending with our current ‘aimless passing around the back four’ tactics. 
 

Edit: Also, defending starts with the attacks, we are rubbish at holding the ball up and we don’t use it well enough in the final third meaning we face a lot of counter attacks. 

Have to agree with your final note. Defending starts at the front, we have to defend better as a team overall. It used to be said the best defender in the Liverpool side of the eighties was Ian Rush.

9 minutes ago, charierre said:

Have to agree with your final note. Defending starts at the front, we have to defend better as a team overall. It used to be said the best defender in the Liverpool side of the eighties was Ian Rush.

Agreed. That comes down to the set up as well. 

So often we end up with our back four being isolated and having to defend while being out numbered, because we don't press as a unit. One comes out and one stays back and the teams play around us. Happened multiple times against Bayern.

Ziyech is a fierce presser. He'll make a difference to this next season. 

I cannot express how disappointed I've been with Rudiger this season, did I just see something that wasn't there? Or is he just having a one off this season. I remember when we first bought him, I wasn't too big on the signing, and that awful game he had against Roma when we got smashed 3-0 casted a lot of doubts. But after that he really rejuvenated himself from the good Roma CB we heard about, he looked like a massive upgrade on Luiz and had calm distribution, what happened? This season he can barely pass a ball properly and his defending is all over the shop, and his long range passing is absolutely abysmal, I remember when he could give Luiz a good run of his money when playing the diagonal ball. I know the team isn't that stable, and the whole setup is all over the place, but as a defender he is making so many individual errors that can't be blamed on the way Frank has set up the side. 

At this rate he doesn't even deserve a game over Zouma or Tomori, who I believe have had a much superior season. Remember Rudiger against Barcelona? What a player he looked, and last season I thought he was quality. I was dying for him to come back when we were conceding goals left and right, but he hasn't really aided the issue at all, he just looks like a liability more than anything... 

It's clear that we need another CB. Now, I voted that we offload Zouma and Christensen, so that might contradict everything I've just said here. Zouma I don't think will ever be Chelsea material, he isn't sharp enough, Christensen is the opposite, he lacks the physicality of a Premier League CB. Tomori to me looks the real deal, he's had a lot of mistakes, but he looks highly promising at such a young age. Rudiger is still experienced and it could be worth keeping him around. But I still fully believe we need a new CB, and that's really disappointing to be honest. But I don't think we will have much success with Rudiger being our best CB.