Official Thomas Tuchel *Now Sacked*

[Argo]

36 minutes ago, The Don Antonio said:

I think it is imperative that we add elite players to the team. I don't want to be a buzzkill but the fact of the matter is that our 343(False 9)  got figured out at the end of the season with us losing 3 of our last 4 domestic games before won the UCL. They let us have the ball and parked the bus knowing fully well that we didnt have the creative players to break them down. Luckily for us Man City don't play that way hence us hitting them on the break and winning the UCL.

Hopefully we get Haaland . I don't consider Lukaku as an Elite striker . 

 

I wouldn't say it got "figured out", Leno and Martinez has excellent games against us, Leicester we were disappointing granted but even then it took the save of the season and a bullsh*t VAR decision to deny us the cup (Leicester would have been sitting ducks in extra time with the defensive changes Rodgers made).

If we were playing largely rubbish but getting undeserved points because we had someone like Aubameyang scoring every half chance people will be saying our luck will eventually run out, so why can't that logic also be applied in reverse?

[The Don Antonio]

28 minutes ago, Argo said:

I wouldn't say it got "figured out", Leno and Martinez has excellent games against us, Leicester we were disappointing granted but even then it took the save of the season and a bullsh*t VAR decision to deny us the cup (Leicester would have been sitting ducks in extra time with the defensive changes Rodgers made).

If we were playing largely rubbish but getting undeserved points because we had someone like Aubameyang scoring every half chance people will be saying our luck will eventually run out, so why can't that logic also be applied in reverse?

     Fair enough. I didnt think we were playing rubbish though i just thought we lacked that clinical edge to break a parked bus which is something even Lampard complained about last season. In most of our games we scored first and held on to the lead with our impregnable defense but we only had one game with Tuchel were we came back after conceding first.  Teams figured if they conceded first against us it was game over and hence parked the bus to either play for a draw or catch us on the break . 

    All in all I am just trying to say that we shouldn't be blinded by the fact that we won UCL and now think this team is good enough to compete for the league without QUALITY additions

[Argo]

9 minutes ago, The Don Antonio said:

     Fair enough. I didnt think we were playing rubbish though i just thought we lacked that clinical edge to break a parked bus which is something even Lampard complained about last season. In most of our games we scored first and held on to the lead with our impregnable defense but we only had one game with Tuchel were we came back after conceding first.  Teams figured if they conceded first against us it was game over and hence parked the bus to either play for a draw or catch us on the break . 

    All in all I am just trying to say that we shouldn't be blinded by the fact that we won UCL and now think this team is good enough to compete for the league without QUALITY additions

Ofcourse not but at the same time there was a lot of mitigating circumstances to our scoring troubles last season in the league.

Werner having a few weeks of misses which coincided with the start of the Lampard meltdown period. Kai getting a bad dose of Covid then returning in the Lampard meltdown period, Pulisic injured a lot under Lampard and being largely a sub under Tuchel, Ziyech hitting the ground running but then getting injured and returning while in the midst of the same big collapse. I think the odds of none of them improving next season are next to none, furthermore we made the very best signing possible last January.

If we can find a suitable striker/goal scoring wide player then by all means go for it but last thing I want to see us doing is falling into the trap of signing a striker because we believe they guarantee goals, two years ago we would have probably put Jovic into that category.

[Gol15]

Well said @The Don Antonio, @ducavis and @Argo, many good points.

IMO the longer we play the 3-4-2-1/3-4-3/3-5-2 or whatever it is, the sooner we'll stop being so good defensively speaking. Now is the time to buy a top quality player that would secure us being strong in defense and better in attack, not when we start losing but this summer we must sign new player just to keep the opposition guessing on how we'll play.

Remember that Conte's tactic looked super sick but the very next season so many teams firstly adopted it and suddenly started playing with a back 3 and then we got figured out and we lacked the players capable of making a new comeback since Bakayoko couldn't do half the job of Matic and same can be said about Morata replacing D.Costa for example.

I also agree that there are more chances of our players improving than not, but that's mainly our attackers. I have said for a long time now, a new CB, DM and a striker would be the obvious thing to invest in, specially now considering that T.Silva will be 36, that Gilmour won't be there so our depth in the midfield is pretty thin and specially a new striker since Giroud is leaving and that Tuchel for whatever reason doesn't matter simply doesn't rate Tammy! Giroud's importance to us was huge, to have a player like that available to come in at any point in the season and score 10+ goals when needed, man... We simply must sign a few top quality players, for me now is the time.

[hephzibah]

I don't know, it's like I felt bad about how we ended in the premier league last season. We needed to be convincing but we weren't and you can't win the premier league with those kinds of performances.

For the coming season, if we want to win the premier league, we must show that we are better than teams like Aston Villa, Leicester or whatever their names are.

And we shouldn't bring ourselves low to the level of those teams. If we want to win the premier league, I feel matches against teams like that, we should be winning them. For next season, we need more solid performances.

In terms of recruitment, Declan Rice is compulsory, we need to get him this summer. Then, in the case of a striker, we do not need another striker, we have Werner.

I feel he was doing well, then maybe by mistake, I think he missed a scoring chance, what is the big deal about that? And then since then, maybe he was listening to what the fans were saying, i think he has been bad. i think that's bad.

If everyone of us lived our lives based on what other people say, I think we will have bad lives. We live our lives the way we know we should live it and not how people say we should live it.

So I feel Werner was wrong to have been listening to people. I think he's a good player, and if he stops listening to what people are saying, I think he will be good. 

So we have Werner, Abraham and Armando Broja. I think we are ok. I feel Armando Broja is ok. If you've not seen his clips, you can check it on YouTube. I think he's ok, if we can develop them, I think they are ok for us.

[Bob stark]

On 09/07/2021 at 20:30, ducavis said:

👏.. if he insists of playing a 3-4-3, the lack of creativity also needs to be addressed alongside a Striker.

Personally I am sceptical of the formation actively challenging in a very long season where we are competing in 5 competitions. 

I don't think formation is thr problem. The problem is our inability to score. If you look at our starting 11 for our ucl final,it is quite clear why and it got nothing to do with formation. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Bob stark

[axman2526]

Ok Tommy the international gong show is done and the real football can get going. 

Real cr@p hand we have been dealt with our best players delayed return and that nightmare start to the season. 

I am really interested to see what happens with the likes of Guhri,  Ampadu, Gallagher etc and who is sold and arrives.

Champions of Europe, we know who we are.

[LongtimerLurker]

I think we're best placed next season to switch back and forth between a back 3 and 4. Having a proper pre season with Tuchel may be more important than any particular signing (except say a Haaland). 

The more I think about it the more I'm starting to think that if we can't sign Haaland we should be ok as long as the others all put up minimum 10 goals and assists (Timo, Kai, Christian, Callum, Mason, Hakim & Tammy if he stays). 

Tommy has a great record with getting his forwards firing and reinventing players positions like how he played Aubameyang through the middle at Dortmund. I could see a similar situation with one of our fwds next season if we don't sign a top striker. 

Not necessarily a false 9 kind of deal, Kai as an out and out striker, or more of Pulisic though the middle which we have seen before. Hakim can also play false 9, Timo could improve through the middle and maybe Tammy will get a chance to shine.

In this respect then we may actually be fine if we can't get our first choices this summer. Keeping this squad intact may just be enough.

[Guest Sindre]

7 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

In this respect then we may actually be fine if we can't get our first choices this summer. Keeping this squad intact may just be enough.

Depends what we are aiming for. Can anyone honestly see us fighting for the PL-title without a top striker? I mean, it's not the end of the world if we don't but then expectations need to be lowered to Top 4.

[Spiller86]

28 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I think we're best placed next season to switch back and forth between a back 3 and 4. Having a proper pre season with Tuchel may be more important than any particular signing (except say a Haaland). 

The more I think about it the more I'm starting to think that if we can't sign Haaland we should be ok as long as the others all put up minimum 10 goals and assists (Timo, Kai, Christian, Callum, Mason, Hakim & Tammy if he stays). 

Tommy has a great record with getting his forwards firing and reinventing players positions like how he played Aubameyang through the middle at Dortmund. I could see a similar situation with one of our fwds next season if we don't sign a top striker. 

Not necessarily a false 9 kind of deal, Kai as an out and out striker, or more of Pulisic though the middle which we have seen before. Hakim can also play false 9, Timo could improve through the middle and maybe Tammy will get a chance to shine.

In this respect then we may actually be fine if we can't get our first choices this summer. Keeping this squad intact may just be enough.

All good points. For mine I think a tactical manager like Tuchel is always a risk because as teams catch up and learn to negate your style you have to evolve to stay in front.

Conte's second year is a great example of this. In a very early match against Bayern Carlo perfectly negated his build up and that was a sign of what was to come. With no (good) new signings and options we fell in a heap. 

I think we need to evolve the squad to assist with that. Doesn't need to be Haaland but some good options to help us shift to different styles will go a long way to us competing on multiple fronts over what looms as a huge season with possibly up to 65 games.

[weetee]

We won't let go Giroud and Tammy and not buy any other striker; that I'm sure of. One of the great qualties of the Chelsea squad is it's depth combined with a lot of versatility/flexibility. We tried a 433 last season as well against Leeds I think (possibly 442, not sure). It failed kinda at that time but we now have a pre-season + TT already knows his squad in/out and most importantly the squad ain't changing much or at least not against our will/unplanned.

He played very flexible with Mainz, with Dortmund (forced by selling three core players after his first season there) and also implemented the 523 next to the regular 433 (or better 424 ;)) at Paris. Would be strange if he now insists on his 343 day in day out. We all know he's a clever dude.

Edited July 13, 2021 by weetee

[Argo]

51 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Depends what we are aiming for. Can anyone honestly see us fighting for the PL-title without a top striker? I mean, it's not the end of the world if we don't but then expectations need to be lowered to Top 4.

For all the talk of this new striker bar Haaland, has any of our even semi realistic options in the season just gone scored more than Timo and Kai the season before they joined us?

Why is a new striker considered a safe bet but those two improving not? If we're going to overhaul a promising system to accommodate a striker then it has to be as close to a safe bet as possible. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Argo

[Guest Sindre]

2 minutes ago, Argo said:

For all the talk of this new striker bar Haaland, has any of our even semi realistic options in the season just gone scored more than Timo and Kai the season before they joined us?

Why is a new striker considered a safe bet but those two improving not? If we're going to overhaul a promising system to accommodate a striker then it has to be as close to a safe bet as possible. 

You absolutely wouldn't need to overhaul the system to accomodate Haaland. He fits like a glove for our current style of play and signing him would make us contenders.

Neither Havertz or Werner will be out and out in this league anyways. I like Havertz a lot in a second striker type of role and he would form a deadly partnership with Haaland in my opinion. Werner will continue to be an option from inside left.

But going into the season with Abraham and possibly Broja as your only "true" number 9s? Better start crossing fingers for Top 4.

 

[Argo]

3 minutes ago, Sindre said:

You absolutely wouldn't need to overhaul the system to accomodate Haaland. He fits like a glove for our current style of play and signing him would make us contenders.

Neither Havertz or Werner will be out and out in this league anyways. I like Havertz a lot in a second striker type of role and he would form a deadly partnership with Haaland in my opinion. Werner will continue to be an option from inside left.

But going into the season with Abraham and possibly Broja as your only "true" number 9s? Better start crossing fingers for Top 4.

 

Wouldn't we? One of the key reasons to our success so far under TT is pressing as a team, Haaland is not exactly top notch at that. Not to mention we will have so many attacking players a change in formation will be practically forced upon Tuchel (which won't be so bad for the lesser games but I imagine our big game record would be significantly weaker).

For a striker of Haaland's standing smashing our wage structure not withstanding it's probably worth the compromise but for any other striker even possibly avalible I'm not sure. The reason we create so many chances to waste is because everyone is involved in the build up, an out and out striker finishing what we create sounds good in theory but in reality we are taking one man out of the build up play, so to do that the new forward needs to be close to a sure bet to finish most of what he gets.

Also there was a lot of mitigating circumstances to the German's struggles last season. New to a league, a rookie manager for half a season that didn't know how to fit them in and a dose of long Covid in Kai's case. I just can't foresee their numbers not significantly improving this season coming, especially in Kai's case and I'd rather gamble on that than most strikers out there possibly avalible. We of all fans should know strikers don't always work out on practice like they do on paper (for example two years ago many thought Luka Jovic was the answer to our prayers).

It's not an easy situation but that's why we've appointed a manager like Tuchel, i fully trust he will find a way whether it's my way or yours.

[weetee]

 

34 minutes ago, Argo said:

Wouldn't we? One of the key reasons to our success so far under TT is pressing as a team, Haaland is not exactly top notch at that. ...

 

I agree with the rest of your post but what makes you say that? He was playing at RB Salzburg who indoctrinate their players with the aggressive pressing game. Dortmund under Favre didn't play as aggressive as before but with Terzic they started to do that again and I'm pretty sure he's actually very good at it. Curious.

[Oli]

What about Ike Ugbo or possibly Broja. Hard to say whether either are good enough, but Ugbo looked to be in very good scoring touch in the Belgian League last year, and was very good in our youth system. I do think we need a goal scoring forward net year, but hopefully Tuchel assesses the returning loanees properly and if good enough I hope some get a fair chance. 

[Argo]

46 minutes ago, weetee said:

 

I agree with the rest of your post but what makes you say that? He was playing at RB Salzburg who indoctrinate their players with the aggressive pressing game. Dortmund under Favre didn't play as aggressive as before but with Terzic they started to do that again and I'm pretty sure he's actually very good at it. Curious.

I think I may have fell into the stats trap slightly, his ball recoveries, presses are a lot less than Timo and Kai but then again it could like you said be tactical.

[weetee]

15 minutes ago, Argo said:

I think I may have fell into the stats trap slightly, his ball recoveries, presses are a lot less than Timo and Kai but then again it could like you said be tactical.

Then it makes sense since Favre played very deep and extremely waiting/cautious. Just the eye-test but imho I can clearly remember Haaland trying to initiate a pressing situation but since the rest of the team didn't follow he stopped doing - visibly angry about it 😉 

Sure, I too would think that because of his body he's not as good as Werner (prolly one of the best, no idea about stats though) and Havertz since he's likely a good deal less mobile but imho the will / workrate and cleverness combined with an orchestrated approach (whole team does it) is the most important part to be successful with it - just my uninformed idea though - and I'd be very confident about his will and cleverness!

[SydneyChelsea]

On 14/07/2021 at 00:29, Argo said:

I think I may have fell into the stats trap slightly, his ball recoveries, presses are a lot less than Timo and Kai but then again it could like you said be tactical.

It's almost certainly tactical, Dortmund under Favre tended to shift away from the hyper-aggressive pressing of the past. Sat deep, won the ball in midfield, quick counter-attack. 

As we saw with Lampard's disorganised and often suicidal approach to pressing, it's not so much about winning the ball back yourself but pressuring in tandem with your teammates to force an error or turnover in a dangerous situation.

We want Haaland to be the one receiving the pass when ball turns over, not necessarily always the one who initiates it.

 

On 14/07/2021 at 00:50, weetee said:

Sure, I too would think that because of his body he's not as good as Werner (prolly one of the best, no idea about stats though) and Havertz since he's likely a good deal less mobile but imho the will / workrate and cleverness combined with an orchestrated approach (whole team does it) is the most important part to be successful with it 

He's very quick, one of the fastest players in the world! Probably not as fast as Werner in full-flight but almost certainly as fast as Havertz.

[weetee]

7 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

It's almost certainly tactical, Dortmund under Favre tended to shift away from the hyper-aggressive pressing of the past. Sat deep, won the ball in midfield, quick counter-attack. 

As we saw with Lampard's disorganised and often suicidal approach to pressing, it's not so much about winning the ball back yourself but pressuring in tandem with your teammates to force an error or turnover in a dangerous situation.

We want Haaland to be the one receiving the pass when ball turns over, not necessarily always the one who initiates it.

 

He's very quick, one of the fastest players in the world! Probably not as fast as Werner in full-flight but almost certainly as fast as Havertz.

He is very fast, but he sure isn‘t as mobile with quick turns etc as the players I mentioned which obviously helps when pressing. But nothing I‘d have any worries about, not at all.

[Gol15]

I think that we will get a new signing by mid August even if most teams just wait till the last days of the transfer window and then make some loan deals.

We don't have enough depth, Giroud was really great and we could count on him to come in at any point in the season and contribute with goals so I'm pretty sure we will sign a new striker, maybe even Haaland.

In addition Gilmour is out on loan so our midfield looks thin at the moment unless we plan to keep players like Barkley and RLC.

For me it looks almost impossible that we don't sign any new player.

[JM7]

I was reading about tino livramento’s situation today. He seems very highly rated both internally and externally. Only has 1 year left on his deal. 
 

Seems a lot of the youngsters are cottoning onto the fact that there is no pathway to the first team. 
 

Tuchel has to find a a way of getting him to sign a new deal otherwise we risk losing ANOTHER youth player. Also hoping Tuchel can continue to integrate some youth. 

[big blue]

On 13/07/2021 at 15:19, Oli said:

What about Ike Ugbo or possibly Broja. Hard to say whether either are good enough, but Ugbo looked to be in very good scoring touch in the Belgian League last year, and was very good in our youth system. I do think we need a goal scoring forward net year, but hopefully Tuchel assesses the returning loanees properly and if good enough I hope some get a fair chance. 

Ugbo got 16 in belgium, Broja got even less than that in holland. Might as well stick with Abraham who in terms of goals, outperformanced both of them at every level. 

If we can get haaland great, if not save the money, go again with Abraham, and try for Haaland again next summer. 

[big blue]

1 hour ago, JM7 said:

I was reading about tino livramento’s situation today. He seems very highly rated both internally and externally. Only has 1 year left on his deal. 
 

Seems a lot of the youngsters are cottoning onto the fact that there is no pathway to the first team. 
 

Tuchel has to find a a way of getting him to sign a new deal otherwise we risk losing ANOTHER youth player. Also hoping Tuchel can continue to integrate some youth. 

Bate is in the same situation. Looks like we will lose a few unfortunately. Maybe if Tuchel keeps him around the 1st team, and gives him the odd early round cup game, it might change his mind, although that approach didnt work with Lamptey, and James, Azpi, and possible CHO, will still be fighting for minutes at right wing back. 

Hopefully if he does go, we get a decent fee and a buy back clause. Dont want to lose him for free like we did with illing jnr, and Musiala. 

[JM7]

10 hours ago, big blue said:

Bate is in the same situation. Looks like we will lose a few unfortunately. Maybe if Tuchel keeps him around the 1st team, and gives him the odd early round cup game, it might change his mind, although that approach didnt work with Lamptey, and James, Azpi, and possible CHO, will still be fighting for minutes at right wing back. 

Hopefully if he does go, we get a decent fee and a buy back clause. Dont want to lose him for free like we did with illing jnr, and Musiala. 

Seems to be only way to protect ourselves. Sell with a buy back clause.