Official Thomas Tuchel *Now Sacked*

[strider6004]

3 minutes ago, goose said:

At least this year we will have similar preseason to the others. One of the things I think that got to our team towards the end of SFL’s reign was our very short preseason because of the extended season before with the FA cup and the delayed CL second leg with Bayer 

I also thought we got the big name players late and that must have made it more difficult for Frank.

[True Blue23]

19 hours ago, RMH said:

Whether we spend £200 million or not, the pressure on the team was always going to be on. Frank was sacked for going through a dip and not challenging City for the PL. This season Abramovich will most likely expect Tuchel to challenge the PL title and have a good run on the cups (FA or CL), independently of how much we spend on new players. Even us fans will expect the team to do well in the PL with a preseason and being back to a more normal schedule of games.

I'm not buying that. Lamps wasn't sacked for not challenging for the PL, but because we were sitting in 8th and were 5 points away from Top 4 (potentially more if the teams ahead of us won their games in hand). And he didn't look like turning around the ship. I doubt he would have been sacked during the season had we been in the Top 4.

[Argo]

4 hours ago, True Blue23 said:

I'm not buying that. Lamps wasn't sacked for not challenging for the PL, but because we were sitting in 8th and were 5 points away from Top 4 (potentially more if the teams ahead of us won their games in hand). And he didn't look like turning around the ship. I doubt he would have been sacked during the season had we been in the Top 4.

Yes i really don't like the narrative that everything was next to perfect for a season and a bit then a mere few bad results and all of a sudden people lost patience.

The previous season we produced borderline relegation fighting form for nearly half a season and Lampard still kept his job, the notion he was sacked at the very first sign of trouble is complete nonsense.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Argo

[RMH]

26 minutes ago, Argo said:

Yes i really don't like the narrative that everything was next to perfect for a season and a bit then a mere few bad results and all of a sudden people lost patience.

The previous season we produced borderline relegation fighting form for nearly half a season and Lampard still kept his job, the notion he was sacked at the very first sign of trouble is complete nonsense.

I’m not saying that. If any of you two bother to read properly, you’d notice that what I said is not incompatible with being 8th 5 points from top 4, as if 5 points were a big gap at that time of the season!, and not challenging as in our football was dire. But we had been first with Lampard earlier on, playing fantastic football. He was sacked because the board did not think that we would make top 4, and they thought Lampard was not up to it. If Tuchel gets through the Christmas period and we are not challenging for first, it is not going to be different. Why should it be? He’s won against all odds the CL with this team, whether we get any signing or not, the board is going to expect the team to challenge the PL.

[Argo]

Just now, RMH said:

I’m not saying that. If any of you two bother to read properly, you’d notice that what I said is not incompatible with being 8th 5 points from top 4, as if 5 points were a big gap at that time of the season!, and not challenging as in our football was dire. But we had been first with Lampard earlier on, playing fantastic football. He was sacked because the board did not think that we would make top 4, and they thought Lampard was not up to it. If Tuchel gets through the Christmas period and we are not challenging for first, it is not going to be different. Why should it be? He’s won against all odds the CL with this team, whether we get any signing or not, the board is going to expect the team to challenge the PL.

I was speaking more in a general sense, if I had £1 for the amount of times i argued that line.

And was it against all odds? A surprise maybe but as soon as the quarter final draw was made I knew we had a really strong chance and had us as favourites to make the final from our side.

[RMH]

16 minutes ago, Argo said:

I was speaking more in a general sense, if I had £1 for the amount of times i argued that line.

And was it against all odds? A surprise maybe but as soon as the quarter final draw was made I knew we had a really strong chance and had us as favourites to make the final from our side.

Not being an English native speaker could mean that we mean different things with against all odds. How many gave us a chance in the final? Yes, many of us thought we had a good chance of reaching the final when we got Porto and Real Madrid, but not many thought we’d beat City, Bayern or PSG in the final. In fact, most thought it was City’s or PSG’s year. Pundits, fans, and public in general gave us not a chance. Which proves again that being underdogs suits us to a tee. And very well done to Tuchel and the team.

 

[Argo]

7 minutes ago, RMH said:

Not being an English native speaker could mean that we mean different things with against all odds. How many gave us a chance in the final? Yes, many of us thought we had a good chance of reaching the final when we got Porto and Real Madrid, but not many thought we’d beat City, Bayern or PSG in the final. In fact, most thought it was City’s or PSG’s year. Pundits, fans, and public in general gave us not a chance. Which proves again that being underdogs suits us to a tee. And very well done to Tuchel and the team.

 

Personally speaking I have a lot of belief in this squad going forward (which was the main reason I became as vocal as I did with Frank, i want a change at national level for similar reasons) and think sky is the limit for them.

I didn't expect us to win but I fancied our chances in one off circumstances against everyone bar Bayern (and even then we had half a chance due to the insane high line Flick played). My gut instinct was we were going to have a couple of great scalps but ultimately our lack or experience would show.

[venom2011]

On 12/06/2021 at 18:03, RMH said:

 He was sacked because the board did not think that we would make top 4, and they thought Lampard was not up to it. If Tuchel gets through the Christmas period and we are not challenging for first, it is not going to be different. Why should it be?

It should be and most likely would be because as much I didn't want Lampard sacked, he had more than a few things going against him. 1. He showed patches of real tactical naivety (acceptable in isolation given his inexperience). 2. He cast out more than a few senior players, the players you need on your side when youngsters and new signings invariably have their dips. Just imagine that CL final without Rudiger and Azpi. 3. Word got around that the tactical side of training was severely lacking compared to past managers.

In hindsight, I have no issue with management looking at this picture holistically and thinking the best way forward was to replace him. If it was simply a matter of results, I think they would have stuck with Frank a little longer. 

[Argo]

18 hours ago, venom2011 said:

It should be and most likely would be because as much I didn't want Lampard sacked, he had more than a few things going against him. 1. He showed patches of real tactical naivety (acceptable in isolation given his inexperience). 2. He cast out more than a few senior players, the players you need on your side when youngsters and new signings invariably have their dips. Just imagine that CL final without Rudiger and Azpi. 3. Word got around that the tactical side of training was severely lacking compared to past managers.

In hindsight, I have no issue with management looking at this picture holistically and thinking the best way forward was to replace him. If it was simply a matter of results, I think they would have stuck with Frank a little longer. 

I got that there would be bumps in the road and he will get stuff right and wrong but what really shocked me in the last couple of months especially was there was no style of play anymore.

I know we lost them but remember early on in Frank's reign when we went toe to toe with peak Liverpool and Pep's City and looked not a bit out of place? Many teams will get hammered if they do that but we honestly looked like we belonged on the level with them for the 90 minutes, I don't think I was ever more content after defeats because I truly felt something was happening. Out footballing Ajax (a team with possession based football in their DNA going back decades) in Amsterdam was another moment that had me seriously excited.

What I would love to know is how the f**k did we go from that to what we witnessed in the winter? We literally had no midfield and the main game plan seemed to be get it out to James or Chilwell to throw it in the mixer, it was sole destroying football even before we got into the results.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Argo

[venom2011]

13 hours ago, Argo said:

What I would love to know is how the f**k did we go from that to what we witnessed in the winter? We literally had no midfield and the main game plan seemed to be get it out to James or Chilwell to throw it in the mixer, it was sole destroying football even before we got into the results.

My theory on that is - so fans and pundits always talk of the new manager bounce, yes? Well I believe similar can happen with old managers. Under Sarri (and I actually enjoyed his tenure mostly) we dominated some games against Pool and City for the first time in what felt like forever. The midfield of Kova, Jorgi and Kante - although without any real attacking threat - was quite impressive under him. We lacked goals and decisiveness though - seems familiar... He changed Kante's role and developed the Kova-Jorgi partnership that bore fruits in Lamps' first season. Not to mention that the team ended Sarri's season in form and playing some good stuff. 

Over the course of the next 18 months we essentially witnessed the de-evolution of those roles and sub-systems. And that was only exacerbated by the fact that Lamps disregarded some key senior players. You can see under Tuchel how you can take say Azpi out and replace him with James at RCB or James out and replace him with Odoi at WB - and very little changes because of how good Tuchel is with his tactical training. In those winter months you speak of, we ended with Kante as the lone 6 and not knowing what the hell he was doing, and the two 8s looking like they barely understood football. 

[Deino]

15 hours ago, Argo said:

 

What I would love to know is how the f**k did we go from that to what we witnessed in the winter? We literally had no midfield and the main game plan seemed to be get it out to James or Chilwell to throw it in the mixer, it was sole destroying football even before we got into the results.

Frank couldn't adapt fast enough when opposition manager figured him out. After that everything was on a downward spiral.

Frank got the yips

[SydneyChelsea]

17 hours ago, Argo said:

I got that there would be bumps in the road and he will get stuff right and wrong but what really shocked me in the last couple of months especially was there was no style of play anymore.

I know we lost them but remember early on in Frank's reign when we went toe to toe with peak Liverpool and Pep's City and looked not a bit out of place? Many teams will get hammered if they do that but we honestly looked like we belonged on the level with them for the 90 minutes, I don't think I was ever more content after defeats because I truly felt something was happening. Out footballing Ajax (a team with possession based football in their DNA going back decades) in Amsterdam was another moment that had me seriously excited.

What I would love to know is how the f**k did we go from that to what we witnessed in the winter? We literally had no midfield and the main game plan seemed to be get it out to James or Chilwell to throw it in the mixer, it was sole destroying football even before we got into the results.

That's actually a really good question. It wasn't so much the regression as much as the speed of regression that was so alarming. One minute in December, to quote Ben Chilwell, "we feel as if we cannot lose"; less than a month later we were debating whether Lampard would see Christmas!

There's no doubt that injury and form robbed him of the best of Kante, Ziyech, Havertz and Werner at a crucial time, but at the same time, what was most alarming was there appeared to be no plan hold the fort in the meantime. What was eternally concerning was Lampard often correctly identifying what went wrong in the game but apparently having no way to fix it. I think the answer to the question lies in experience, and I think that without experience and the freedom to tinker and make mistakes at a lower level it is impossible to have a point of reference to handle these situations at the very top.

 

 

 

[Argo]

32 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

That's actually a really good question. It wasn't so much the regression as much as the speed of regression that was so alarming. One minute in December, to quote Ben Chilwell, "we feel as if we cannot lose"; less than a month later we were debating whether Lampard would see Christmas!

There's no doubt that injury and form robbed him of the best of Kante, Ziyech, Havertz and Werner at a crucial time, but at the same time, what was most alarming was there appeared to be no plan hold the fort in the meantime. What was eternally concerning was Lampard often correctly identifying what went wrong in the game but apparently having no way to fix it. I think the answer to the question lies in experience, and I think that without experience and the freedom to tinker and make mistakes at a lower level it is impossible to have a point of reference to handle these situations at the very top.

I think there were some signs that the pleasing style we played under Frank initially was waning, I thought we were very poor after the restart but Pulisic stuck a sticky plaster on it.

I felt even during the unbeaten run there was some signs we were starting to become a bit too reliant on crossing and set pieces but in the winter it went to whole new levels, we were literally looking like a Tony Pulis side, it was utterly brutal to watch.

@venom2011 makes a very interesting point actually, did the muscle memory from Sarri's tactics combined with Frank's introduction of the youngsters and more expressive philosophy hit a perfect sweetspot?

[TheGermanOne]

On 11/06/2021 at 17:23, RMH said:

Whether we spend £200 million or not, the pressure on the team was always going to be on. Frank was sacked for going through a dip and not challenging City for the PL. This season Abramovich will most likely expect Tuchel to challenge the PL title and have a good run on the cups (FA or CL), independently of how much we spend on new players. Even us fans will expect the team to do well in the PL with a preseason and being back to a more normal schedule of games.

 

I dont think that Abramovich is expecting to win the PL title next year without spending a lot on new players.

This would be completely unrealistic if you look at the other opponents who probably spend a lot on Jadon Sancho (United) or Harry Kane (City).

 

[RMH]

1 hour ago, TheGermanOne said:

 

I dont think that Abramovich is expecting to win the PL title next year without spending a lot on new players.

This would be completely unrealistic if you look at the other opponents who probably spend a lot on Jadon Sancho (United) or Harry Kane (City).

 

I never said he will expect us to win it but to challenge. Don't forget that we won the CL with this group of players and we signed two very promising German players last season, who should be settled into the PL this coming season. We will reinforce the team almost certainly, so it is very likely that the board will expect the team to close the gap with City and Liverpool and be in the race for the title. And knowing Chelsea, we are capable of doing it as the underdogs.

[Bob stark]

On 15/06/2021 at 16:27, SydneyChelsea said:

That's actually a really good question. It wasn't so much the regression as much as the speed of regression that was so alarming. One minute in December, to quote Ben Chilwell, "we feel as if we cannot lose"; less than a month later we were debating whether Lampard would see Christmas!

There's no doubt that injury and form robbed him of the best of Kante, Ziyech, Havertz and Werner at a crucial time, but at the same time, what was most alarming was there appeared to be no plan hold the fort in the meantime. What was eternally concerning was Lampard often correctly identifying what went wrong in the game but apparently having no way to fix it. I think the answer to the question lies in experience, and I think that without experience and the freedom to tinker and make mistakes at a lower level it is impossible to have a point of reference to handle these situations at the very top.

 

 

 

One of Lampard biggest problem was managing Werner, Ziyech, Havertz, puli. Puli was our best attacker last season and the other three were our big transfers last seaaon. I feel like Lampard was trying too hard to fit all of them together, you could see the team was so imbalance with all 4 playing together. Once the run against better team came, everything felt apart. 

 

 

[LongtimerLurker]

The board's justification for sacking Frank was simple,  results were poor and there was no clear roadmap out of trouble. Furthermore, at the halfway mark of the season they still believed that silverware was attainable. 

 

[axman2526]

Maybe his 3 new players wont be new signings but rather promotions from the youth team and return from loan players like Livamonto, Trevour Chalobah and Armando Broja.

[Deino]

On 22/06/2021 at 23:59, axman2526 said:

Maybe his 3 new players wont be new signings but rather promotions from the youth team and return from loan players like Livamonto, Trevour Chalobah and Armando Broja.

Livramento looks good but maybe all 3 should be loaned to clubs in the Championship. All our loanees who've made it all seem to be ones who can withstand the Championship.

[fester]

On 21/06/2021 at 16:08, LongtimerLurker said:

The board's justification for sacking Frank was simple,  results were poor and there was no clear roadmap out of trouble. Furthermore, at the halfway mark of the season they still believed that silverware was attainable. 

 

I also think that the fact that Tuchel was available was a BIG factor.

[Itsintheblood89]

On 25/01/2021 at 18:16, axman2526 said:

Disagree. With the amazing squad of players we have and every single one of them having unquestionable loyalty to the Chelsea shirt I expect an experienced manager who is a proven technician to achieve a CL victory as well as top 4. After all he made it to the final last year and surely we have better players than PSG right?!!

Your wish is Tuchels command..... 

[SydneyChelsea]

3 hours ago, fester said:

I also think that the fact that Tuchel was available was a BIG factor.

100%. For better or for worse it seems that the pressure only really heaped on Lampard once Chelsea were sure of Tuchel's availability (and Ralf Rangnick/Julian Nagelsmann had already declined). I doubt they would have sacked Lampard had a genuine top-tier manager not been available.

 

[axman2526]

I wonder if our lack of activity in the market so far might be down to TT wanting to run the rule over our loan players before deciding exactly what he wants.

Players like Daka, Sancho and White all going for reasonable fees yet we are nowhere to be seen.

Maybe he wants to look at the likes of Ampadu, Guheri, Gallagher, Maatsen, Broja etc. Along with Drinkwater, Bakayoko, Batman etc (yes yes I know the thought is equality hysterical and terrifying).

TT seems the sort of manager to look for certain traits and believe he can polish coal in to diamonds.

[strider6004]

 I suspect we are chasing big targets to agree fees and then the player does not want to come to England if Italy or Spain come calling.

So we are also keeping tabs on back-up options, yet this is a moving picture too.

 

 

[Sexyfootball]

On 25/06/2021 at 04:11, axman2526 said:

TT seems the sort of manager to look for certain traits and believe he can polish coal in to diamonds.

"There's no such thing as a loser. Losers are just winners in disguise".

(Ken Blanchard, The One Minute Manager)