1 minute ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Our biggest failing under Tuchel is beating teams outside the top six and consistently dropping points to sides that we should be comfortably beating. 

This typically happens because we aren't clinical enough, don't score enough goals and don't have a reliable goal scorer. 

That's why we bought Lukaku and it makes perfect sense to make it work and that's got to be Tuchel's number one focus, getting us able to score goals consistently, particularly from open play. 

The way we catch City isn't to focus on beating them, it's to focus on beating everyone else. 

The likes of Havertz, Ziyech, Pulisic, Werner have shown they're not capable of doing that so lets get the proven goal scorer set up to do it. 

Which is fair enough to a point and if we played Lukaku in those games and had him as a super sub in the big one's I could somewhat get on board.

Maybe back in the day we could get away with a sketchy big game record while battering everyone else but not anymore, Pep has massively altered the ballgame. We've picked up 3 points out of a possible 15 against last season's top 4. If City get the 95 ish points they're on course for that means only 6 points could be dropped at Old Trafford and against all 16 other teams.

It is not OK for him to digg into the player(s) no mather if it’s true. when managers start doing that it usually never ends well (for them). he should’ve just banched Lukaku. I mean all front 3 were atrocious and the starting 11 was his decission.

Edited January 16, 20224 yr by mojo

4 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

We can't keep scapegoating Lukaku for these performances.

Unfortunately yes we can, really it is that simple, our defence starts with our most forward players, same as city, yesterday they nailed it, but our front 3 may as well of sat down and had a picnic, Lukaku must have some really tired arms today, the whole game he was either pointing where he wanted his forwards to close down, whilst remaining stationary or at best jogging, or holding his arm up expecting a 50 yard pass through 8 city players. At one point he even called CHO up the pitch to help press, we then lost the ball and city attacked in the space left by CHO.

But saying that Tuchel was responsible for that performance because he picked him to start and played him the whole 94 mins.

5 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

We can't keep scapegoating Lukaku for these performances. Yesterday we kept playing ourselves into trouble particularly when trying to play out from the back. 

We were barely getting out of our own half most of the time, the players were't coping with the City press and couldn't find a way out. 

And yet we kept doing it over and over again. 

And this is a failing we have. When a plan isn't working we seem incapable of changing it up mid game. 

Yes losing to City is frustrating but not wholly unexpected, they're the best team in the country by a long shot. 

What is frustrating is dropping 9 points to Brighton, Wolves, Everton and West Ham in the month of December. 

Performances like yesterday highlight how far behind we are to City and watching us do a poor imitation of their pressing and possession based football is a wake up call that Lukaku wasn't going to be a quick fix to that. 

Us dropping points against other teams, particularly against some smaller team was something that did happen even last season under Tuchel. We did lose against Villa and played a draw against Leeds and Brighton. But we won bigger games against Liverpool, Man City and also against top 6 teams like West Ham and Spurs.

So in that context I find it impossible to get over the fact that during the summer transfer window we put all of our eggs in that one Lukaku basket, he is expected to take us to the next level as the 100m signing that we were missing. Yet we're still due a win in a big game with him and he has been basically invisible against the best team in the league which doesn't make life easier for the rest of our players.

I'm not saying that a loss against Man City is unexpected since our games are tense and small details have made us winners or losers in the recent times but it does look like they didn't even blink at the notion of us getting Lukaku, it looks like us signing and depending on Lukaku made their tactic against us much easier to execute, as if we spent a lot of money on 1 player and took a step back instead of taking a step forward.

18/19 Sarri played with Hazard as the false 9 and we won 2:0, later on in that season he played Higuain as a classical 9 and we got destroyed 6:0.
19/20 Lampard first lost and then in the second game played with Giroud as a defensive striker and put Tammy as the sub and we managed to win 2:1.
20/21 Tuchel won the second game against them with the back 3 and we won also in the FA Cup and in the CL final as well in a similar manner.

We are behind them it's true, but consider that we have now lost both league games against them for the first time since 2017/18 season when Conte went off the rails... It's maybe not a coincidence that we were unable to compete with Man City this season while trying to fit in Lukaku against them, regardless of other issues.

 

5 hours ago, Argo said:

We didn't do a poor imitation three times last season. We beat them at their own game and totally deserved it everytime. We in head to heads had them on the ropes psychologically but we've totally squandered that advantage.  You can't use last season as a barometer, different circumstances, teams conditions, behind closed door games

Would we have made it 5 in a row against them if we stuck to works in this fixture? Would have been a very big ask but what I can guarantee is if we did go down it wouldn't have been done with the whimper we have done both times. Pep got his tactics spot on yesterday he didn't overthink, something he didn't in the CL final. He targeted our weak left side, letting Sarr be the free man, and used his sides extended rest period to good effect. In Tuchels defense but for a very well taken goal he gets a draw using a severely weakened team.

The worst thing is City weren't even that good in either game, the difference was in the pressing game which we very much could have matched yesterday but we left the appropriate front three for it on the bench. Most of their team had at least 8 days rest before the game.Tuchel was contending with a 3 games in 6 days period.

Tuchel's done a lot of amazing stuff for us and i don't even think he's that highly responsible for our rut but the two games against City is on him. His biggest mistake is possibly persisting with a back 3 instead of flooding the midfield but we had at least four good transitions yesterday when the outcome should have been better.  Only he knows why Havertz is at present not getting minutes, we don't see him in training. 

Also if we're really that far behind City then all the more reason to roll with the forwards that make us more fluent and better to watch. If we're not going to win the league fine we don't have a define right too but let's atleast have some fun in the process (for example I wasn't even that annoyed after the Burnley game because I absolutely loved the football on display that day). Our season was defined in December, games( we have had more games than any other team, whilst others have been afforded rest) and lack of personal has caught up with us. This period will have been draining mentally and physically on the players. We do lack quality in some areas and don't have that 'special player' to open defences. Turning a 21 point deficit into an advantage was always going to be a tough task

 

TT is one of the best managers we’ve had in the Roman era however the squad that he inherited is not. It’s that simple. He’s done wonders since he got hired but expecting some of those players out there yesterday to compete with Peps mob after a year of TT coaching is unrealistic. I’m sick of pundits bigging up the squad he has to work with, a few players aside the squad is nowhere near City’s level. It’s apparent now that in TT preferred system wingbacks are required, call it bad luck losing Chilly for the season and double bad luck James is out, but without them the sparkling attacking footy we saw vs Juve is not gonna happen. The club have indicated no desire to bring in top class reinforcements this month so we’re stuck with most matches being frustrating now.  But the club’s recruiters have to take a look in the mirror. No team is gonna compete consistently w City unless they can get to their performance levels on the pitch, maybe they can be beat them in a one off but to go toe toe with them you need an equal squad or a talisman/ men that give that little bit extra. eg. The Dippers have Salah & Mane. Our squad has no such players anymore, it says a lot that nobody except Jorgi who from pens only is approaching double figures in the league & no more pens equals no more goals for him. Whomever scouted and signed the let downs that are Werner, Zyech, Havertz & Lukaku needs a P45 but we all know the big fellow has final say so nowt will happen. Currently we are lumbered with a toothless attack and once the manager starts digging them out in frustration like yesterday (no names but we all know) it’s not a healthy situation. The league is well and truly gone so only cups to play for, if he wins one more and gets top 4 TT will have done an acceptable job under the circumstances. But until Chelsea’s recruitment improves we are not getting near City or that title. All that is needed just like the dippers have is 1 or 2 world class talismanic players that can score goals consistently. Lukaku is not that player and won’t be moved on anytime soon so we won’t win the title anytime soon. Temo is a fan favorite Bc of his on pitch effort but it’s apparent he’s not gonna be a goal or assist machine, Zyech only looks good on the right in a 4, Havertz has shown glimpses of talent  but never gonna get 20 a season or 10 for that matter. Still could be worse could be Everton fans ! 

16 minutes ago, General said:

TT is one of the best managers we’ve had in the Roman era however the squad that he inherited is not. It’s that simple. He’s done wonders since he got hired but expecting some of those players out there yesterday to compete with Peps mob after a year of TT coaching is unrealistic. I’m sick of pundits bigging up the squad he has to work with, a few players aside the squad is nowhere near City’s level. It’s apparent now that in TT preferred system wingbacks are required, call it bad luck losing Chilly for the season and double bad luck James is out, but without them the sparkling attacking footy we saw vs Juve is not gonna happen. The club have indicated no desire to bring in top class reinforcements this month so we’re stuck with most matches being frustrating now.  But the club’s recruiters have to take a look in the mirror. No team is gonna compete consistently w City unless they can get to their performance levels on the pitch, maybe they can be beat them in a one off but to go toe toe with them you need an equal squad or a talisman/ men that give that little bit extra. eg. The Dippers have Salah & Mane. Our squad has no such players anymore, it says a lot that nobody except Jorgi who from pens only is approaching double figures in the league & no more pens equals no more goals for him. Whomever scouted and signed the let downs that are Werner, Zyech, Havertz & Lukaku needs a P45 but we all know the big fellow has final say so nowt will happen. Currently we are lumbered with a toothless attack and once the manager starts digging them out in frustration like yesterday (no names but we all know) it’s not a healthy situation. The league is well and truly gone so only cups to play for, if he wins one more and gets top 4 TT will have done an acceptable job under the circumstances. But until Chelsea’s recruitment improves we are not getting near City or that title. All that is needed just like the dippers have is 1 or 2 world class talismanic players that can score goals consistently. Lukaku is not that player and won’t be moved on anytime soon so we won’t win the title anytime soon. Temo is a fan favorite Bc of his on pitch effort but it’s apparent he’s not gonna be a goal or assist machine, Zyech only looks good on the right in a 4, Havertz has shown glimpses of talent  but never gonna get 20 a season or 10 for that matter. Still could be worse could be Everton fans ! 

i dont think TT has done wonders in the league.. we relied on spurs to get through to top 4 last season. This season barring 3-4 games we have been struggling or scrapping through - we are averaging less than 2 points per game.. which is similar to what lamps achieved. In my opnion TT has played too safe - if anything we have one of the biggest squads in the league and should have done better..

I agree he has been superb for us - but largely in cup competitions and has been average in the league.. I refuse to believe Antonio, Vardy, Emily Smith Rowe, Rafina are better forwards then we have..

I love TT but we need to be objective - if the UCL win hadnt happen TT would have been in a sticky position right now. Spurs, Utd have sacked managers and Arsenal had a horrendous run and yet they are closer to us... so in honesty TT needs to do better and find new methods.. 

Unless we manage to win the Champs League again, I reckon Tuchel needs top 4 to stay on the right side of the board. If we end up missing out on top 4, I am pretty sure the board will bring somebody else in. We have seen from the past that they show little sentiment towards managers based on success from previous seasons.

Based on the fixtures we had in January I expected the top 4 race to tighten up. But I still think we will finish top 3, especially if we get the likes of Reece back in a month or so. 

Think after some of the recent performances, TT will know that the squad needs some tweaking in the summer and that some players are just not good enough and have to be moved on.

We have players that show glimpses and build your hopes up but have nothing like the consistency required to make it at the very top level. Ziyech, Pulicic, Werner, RLC, Barkley, CHO...........All of them have the odd game where they look good and get your hopes up but you then see a side like City and the difference in quality really hits home. We have too many squad players - all okay to have on the bench and to play the odd game when others are injured, but you don't want to see them starting too many games - all of the above and Alonso being another prime example.

Early in the season, goals were in good supply and we were outscoring our rivals but since Chilwell & James got injured, now you can't see where the goals are coming from.  I've said it before (only for Kova to score that great goal against the dippers) BUT a midfield of Kova, Kante and Jorginho, is never going to provide much in way of goals and the likes of Ziyech, CHO and Pulicic are far from prolific.    

I don't expect a massive clear out at the end of the season, as too many changes can have a detrimental effect and we don't want yet more seasons of transition, but some players have to make way and I look forward to seeing Gallagher banging a few goals in for us next season rather than Palace.

So you think Tuchel's going to stumble on this 99m striker thing? 

38 minutes ago, Jangz said:

i dont think TT has done wonders in the league.. we relied on spurs to get through to top 4 last season. This season barring 3-4 games we have been struggling or scrapping through - we are averaging less than 2 points per game.. which is similar to what lamps achieved. In my opnion TT has played too safe - if anything we have one of the biggest squads in the league and should have done better.... 

I disagree, we were 2nd in the form table from when he took over. He was the reason we were even in the position to benefit from the Leicester bottle job.

4 hours ago, Argo said:

I disagree, we were 2nd in the form table from when he took over. He was the reason we were even in the position to benefit from the Leicester bottle job.

Yes. we managed 38 points in the second half of last season, which would guarantee top 4 and probably top 3 most seasons. First half of this season we amassed 41 points although that was most thanks to an impressive first 10 games or so. Remains to be seen if we can match that total second half of the season. I doubt it but I am still optimistic we can refind some form and finish with a total points tally in the mid 70's.

I agree that our squad does need some work in the summer but even as it is right now we're talking about one of the best squads in the league which isn't a small thing to have.

We actually tried to rebuild after selling Hazard and after Willian and Pedro left (Ziyech, Werner, Havertz, Pulisic) but we still look clueless in attack. I knew that at some point we would stop having clean sheets and the fact that we barely score 2 goals per game at this point doesn't mean much since we had 1 game where we scored 7.

In comparison the Man City squad lost Aguero that is arguably one of the best striker to ever play in the league and they also casually sold the talented Ferran Torres that scored 7 goals in the previous season in the PL. Despite that, they still somehow are the strongest team in the league without any problems. You can argue that they spend in every transfer window but in the recent times they were only replacing the minimal amount of players, Aguero and Torres out, Grealish in. Otamendi and Sane out, Dias, Ake and Torres in.

 

12 hours ago, Argo said:

I disagree, we were 2nd in the form table from when he took over. He was the reason we were even in the position to benefit from the Leicester bottle job.

I dont know about form tables but he managed 19 games and we got 38 points in most seasons that would have meant we would be 3rd/4th in the league that is not doing wonders.

Irrespective of trophies or a top 4 finish, I pray that the Owner & Board give TT time to bring in his OWN choice of players, and as we all seem to say on here every season, get rid of the deadwood ! Other posts have put it far more eloquently than I can, but we have too many players in the first team squad who are just not good enough.

Ziyech, Pulisic, CHO, RLC, Barkley, Alonso, Kennedy, Christiansen, are decent players, but not among the best in their positions in the League. The City game again showed an almost complete lack of creativity. Without Chilwell and James we have no idea how to create chances. I think most agree that while Kante, Kovacic and Jorginho are all very good players, they are NOT attacking midfielders and played as a three we are literally bereft of forward thinking ideas.

I am not sure about Lukaku, I honestly don't think that TT would have chosen him and like most on here, think he is a bit of a "flat track bully" who becomes invisible against even half-decent defences. I would have started with Havertz Mount and Werner in place of Ziyech, Pulisic and Lukaku. Purely because they offer us more variety, when the wing backs can't cross a ball.

What we are missing is the top drawer creative, attacking midfielder, Chiesa would be my choice or maybe de Jong or Wirtz. When Chilwell and James are back and with the probable addition of Conor Gallagher, there would seem to be enough fire power, but would still have doubts that Lukaku is going to be at the Bridge for the long term.

I don’t think our squad is weak, and we can’t just rely on bringing in reinforcements. Ex our attack we have the second strongest squad in the league. Losing our two first choice wing backs is a major blow akin to or worse than Liverpool losing VVD last season. Sometimes you just don’t have the luck. Also I think we (myself included, and I also massively underestimated city) expected a bit too much from TT in his first season.
 

That said, there are things that could go right for us for the balance of the season with our current roster. TT knows what the weaknesses are and will do what he can. Some of our attackers are, I believe, performing way below their potential so we could see some positive surprises. Havertz the prime candidate and maybe there’s even some seasonality to him (underrated factor imo). We are much better than many on here are starting to think, and apart from the City game (and maybe even with it), we have already started to look better in the last few games.

1 hour ago, Jangz said:

I dont know about form tables but he managed 19 games and we got 38 points in most seasons that would have meant we would be 3rd/4th in the league that is not doing wonders.

In a normal context no, but considering he inherited a side that could barely string two passes together and were mid table that is an impressive return.

3 hours ago, Dean said:

I don’t think our squad is weak, and we can’t just rely on bringing in reinforcements. Ex our attack we have the second strongest squad in the league.

Problem is we have depth in all the wrong places. 

We typically play a midfield two but have about six players in the squad whose prefered position is to play there. 

We play a front two or three and have seven players for those positions in the squad. 

It was an open secret in the summer that we were trying to sign Hakimi. We didn't pull off that signing and have gone into the season with 1 specialist right wingback and Tuchel has been left to experiment with playing the likes of CHO and Pulisic there. Meanwhile left wingback there was no way he was going to be allowed to sign someone new given we currently have 5 left sided players on the books already. 

We also tried to sign Kounde but didn't get that deal over the line either and Tuchel had to promote Chalobah to the first team despite having almost no top flight experience and Malang Sarr who only made 8 league appearances on loan to Porto last season. 

It's one thing having having a large squad but another having ones suited to the coaches preferred formation and playing style. 

21 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Problem is we have depth in all the wrong places. 

We typically play a midfield two but have about six players in the squad whose prefered position is to play there. 

We play a front two or three and have seven players for those positions in the squad. 

It was an open secret in the summer that we were trying to sign Hakimi. We didn't pull off that signing and have gone into the season with 1 specialist right wingback and Tuchel has been left to experiment with playing the likes of CHO and Pulisic there. Meanwhile left wingback there was no way he was going to be allowed to sign someone new given we currently have 5 left sided players on the books already. 

We also tried to sign Kounde but didn't get that deal over the line either and Tuchel had to promote Chalobah to the first team despite having almost no top flight experience and Malang Sarr who only made 8 league appearances on loan to Porto last season. 

It's one thing having having a large squad but another having ones suited to the coaches preferred formation and playing style. 

I wonder if Livramento is feeling a sense of what if. I know everything's easy in hindsight and I'm sure he's grateful for the opportunity Saints have given him but had he held his nerve he'd be first name on the teamsheet right now.

18 minutes ago, Argo said:

I wonder if Livramento is feeling a sense of what if. I know everything's easy in hindsight and I'm sure he's grateful for the opportunity Saints have given him but had he held his nerve he'd be first name on the teamsheet right now.

I think if Tuchel had any intention of giving him a role in the first team this season we wouldn't have sold him, particularly for such a low sum. 

And to be fair to Tuchel, the squad already has a lot of accademy players in it already. And as brilliantly as some of them have performed over the last couple of years I think if we want to get back to competing for the title we need to be investing in players of proven pedigree that the managers wants/approves of. 

We're in danger of once again seeing a season fall short through poor summer recruitment. 

I have faith that Tuchel can secure top 4 but we are looking over our shoulders at United, Arsenal, Spurs and West Ham and it'll be their own short fallings that could secure us Champions League football next season rather than our own displays. 

6 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

And to be fair to Tuchel, the squad already has a lot of accademy players in it already. And as brilliantly as some of them have performed over the last couple of years I think if we want to get back to competing for the title we need to be investing in players of proven pedigree that the managers wants/approves of. 

Agree with this.

As exciting as it is to see the likes of Gallagher, Broja, Colwill and others perform there needs to be a proper plan before bringing them into the fold here.

We are aiming to compete with world-class sides with world-class players so we need to be careful so we don't pin our hopes on youngsters with potential. Gallagher could probably come in right now and be an upgrade on almost every attacker we have but is he at the level required for a title charge yet? I am not convinced. Same goes for Broja.

Colwill I think will become a fantastic defender but its probably two years early for him to be a starter with us too.

12 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

I think if Tuchel had any intention of giving him a role in the first team this season we wouldn't have sold him, particularly for such a low sum. 

And to be fair to Tuchel, the squad already has a lot of accademy players in it already. And as brilliantly as some of them have performed over the last couple of years I think if we want to get back to competing for the title we need to be investing in players of proven pedigree that the managers wants/approves of. 

We're in danger of once again seeing a season fall short through poor summer recruitment. 

I have faith that Tuchel can secure top 4 but we are looking over our shoulders at United, Arsenal, Spurs and West Ham and it'll be their own short fallings that could secure us Champions League football next season rather than our own displays. 

Nothing much we could do the contract issue forced our hand.

At the time there was still (wrongly imo) doubt about Tuchel's youth policy but Trevoh's promotion has set the precedence, if they deserve to play they will.

I guess we couldn't have forseen this injury crisis but still all the same we'd be so much better off at the minute with him here.

We have a great squad. In some sense City are envious to our squad. They wish they had Mount, James, Chalobah, Havertz, Pulisic and so on. Basically 21-23 year old national team regulars. City's squad in comparison is more ready to win in terms of age profile. Their Mount is 30 yr old Sterling or 29 yr old Mahrez. 

 

One of the times I agree with Craig Burley. Tuchel also needs to take blame for poor tactics. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, enigma said:

One of the times I agree with Craig Burley. Tuchel also needs to take blame for poor tactics. 

 

 

Lol it's pretty much a segment of more mental gymnastics to defend Lukaku. 

I don't think the tactics were deliberate as Tuchel was going mad every time we cocked up an attack and we did have 44% possession which is hard enough to do against a Pep side when going toe toe. I think you know where I'm going to say Tuchel f**ked up and even more so not rectifying it at half time, you know who set the tone in possession and out.

Edited January 17, 20224 yr by Argo