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Jules Kounde


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1 hour ago, Argo said:

I disagree, maybe not so much in CM but the two most crucial players to make their system work was Trent and Firmino (the latter effectively a 4th midfielder in the build up anyway), two very highly technical players.

And it says a lot that despite their success of 18-20 Klopp still felt he needed a midfielder in the mould of Thiago Alcantara to further evolve.

Hmm saying a team is technical because of 2 players make very little sense. It is like saying city isn't a technical team because kyle walker and fernadinho aren't. 

if you can get Thiago for just 20 m, you are not going to say no. 

Edited by Bob stark
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2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Are you being sarcastic?

You don't like slow heavy possession football yet you said you enjoy the way we and city play

🤔🤔

 

Not being sarcastic. In Chelsea-City games we offset each other. Both have possession and chances are created. The games we have against lesser opponents where the bus is parked the football turns sour. If we had a deadly finisher we could at least win the match. But I don't enjoy 70% ball possession matched even if it is us. The win makes it fine naturally but if we don't win it is twice as bad. 

And to reiterate watch any of Chelsea-City games with Pep and Tuchel they are excellent and so far from being slow. Some brilliant football that is. 

Edited by evissy
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I was pretty positive on this move when it sounded like we were getting  a good deal. 30m + Zouma. 

It doesn't feel quite the same when you start seeing 60m, 70m floated. Particularly when we clearly consider 150m too much for the best young player on the planet. 

Maybe it is TT dream player and the club are determined to get him at any cost. But if that's the genuine reason, surely we'd have been all over this months ago, no?

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1 hour ago, Ballack & Blu said:

Is he better than Christensen, not from what i've seen....

Good thing they’ll play together then, and having both doesn’t mean one will sit on the benchGood thing they’ll play together then, and having both doesn’t mean one will sit on the bench

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Latest whispers about this are Zouma has turned down their interests and either wants to stay with us or stay in england.

Sevilla have turned down 3 alternatives, namely Emerson, Kenedy and Baka.

Sevilla insisting on 80mill release clause met or no deal, despite accepting 55mill from Spurs a month back.

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6 hours ago, evissy said:

Not being sarcastic. In Chelsea-City games we offset each other. Both have possession and chances are created. The games we have against lesser opponents where the bus is parked the football turns sour. If we had a deadly finisher we could at least win the match. But I don't enjoy 70% ball possession matched even if it is us. The win makes it fine naturally but if we don't win it is twice as bad. 

And to reiterate watch any of Chelsea-City games with Pep and Tuchel they are excellent and so far from being slow. Some brilliant football that is. 

70% heavy slow structured possession is how we want play under Tuchel though. 

It is simple, if you have two team who want to press the game won't be boring. 

 

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4 hours ago, Ballack & Blu said:

Is he better than Christensen, not from what i've seen....

Statistically Christensen has been maybe even our best CB last season but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't sign Kounde!

 

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20 hours ago, Argo said:

Technique trumps all in this modern game, the obsession with physicality first is so outdated. It's the main reason why we fell into an extended period so far off the title pace and got beaten in the UCL systematically for so long, i remember Roma absolutely played us off the park and they were far from an elite side, 10 man PSG absolutely bossed us too. We got away with it domestically for a few years (not without warning signs especially in big games) but in Europe we were in that era (2012-2018) always outplayed and chasing shadows against any opponent of note, clever pressing sides with quality midfielders were the absolute death of us. 

It's no coincidence that since we've changed our profile of transfer target to more technically gifted players (adopting a more modern style in the process) we won the UCL at the second time of asking.

I wholly agree with your sentiment but not the bolded part. I think that athleticism - separate from technique and physicality - is what trumps all in modern sport and in truth always has been the different between the average and the great, and the great and the world-class.

If physicality refers to size and height, athleticism is the ability to express physiological advantage in the form of speed, agility and power. A 6' 6" giant who can't jump or run is called John Obi Mikel useless compared to a 5'10" who can jump 40" in the air. Football isn't a static sport and the more the tempo of the game increases, the more this rings true. 

Physically - in terms of pure height and size - there is little that separates Cristiano Ronaldo from many of the world's forwards. Athletically, however, no other forward has been able to express their speed, acceleration and leap in the same way he has for over a decade. Athleticism is what makes people describe Kai Havertz as a 'unicorn'. There are many young players with a combination of his technique and speed, or his technique and height; there are very very few who have all three. We've also seen a rise in extreme athletes eg Mbappe/Traore/Werner being the quickest of the quick or Zouma having both height and sheer athletic jumping ability.

The only exception to this rule would be in goalkeeping, where having a shorter player puts you at a disadvantage because the baseline athletic ability of goalkeepers is more or less the same regardless of height.

I think our transfer policy in recent years has definitely reflected this. Since 2015 we have focused on signing much more athletic players at senior and youth level. Our recent Academy graduates really underline this, with all of them outstanding athletes - Hudson-Odoi obviously, Mount & James very quick over short distances, even Billy Gilmour possesses the ability to burst past a player, something that similar players like Josh McEachran never really had.

At the same time, technique is definitely important. The pace of the game has changed dramatically such that if you can't retain possession or beat the press you increasingly have a limited role on a top-tier team. Players are much fitter and can pressure you just as effectively in the 89th minute as the 1st minute. The cost of losing possession has also never been higher, with even the 20th-ranked team in the EPL easily able to afford 10m+ forward who will punish you (eg West Brom). Defensive tactics are bipolar - either teams sit extremely deep and require you to pass through packed blocks, or teams play extremely high lines that require defenders/midfielders to make pin-point passes.

Lowest of these priorities is certainly physicality. Being 6'6" at centre-back means nothing if you can't actually jump to contest with an athletic 6" striker with a 35" vertical jump, and you don't have the technique to head the ball out of the danger area.

Edited by SydneyChelsea
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13 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I wholly agree with your sentiment but not the bolded part. I think that athleticism - separate from technique and physicality - is what trumps all in modern sport and in truth always has been the different between the average and the great, and the great and the world-class.

If physicality refers to size and height, athleticism is the ability to express physiological advantage in the form of speed, agility and power. A 6' 6" giant who can't jump or run is called John Obi Mikel useless compared to a 5'10" who can jump 40" in the air. Football isn't a static sport and the more the tempo of the game increases, the more this rings true. 

Physically - in terms of pure height and size - there is little that separates Cristiano Ronaldo from many of the world's forwards. Athletically, however, no other forward has been able to express their speed, acceleration and leap in the same way he has for over a decade. Athleticism is what makes people describe Kai Havertz as a 'unicorn'. There are many young players with a combination of his technique and speed, or his technique and height; there are very very few who have all three. We've also seen a rise in extreme athletes eg Mbappe/Traore/Werner being the quickest of the quick or Zouma having both height and sheer athletic jumping ability.

The only exception to this rule would be in goalkeeping, where having a shorter player puts you at a disadvantage because the baseline athletic ability of goalkeepers is more or less the same regardless of height.

I think our transfer policy in recent years has definitely reflected this. Since 2015 we have focused on signing much more athletic players at senior and youth level. Our recent Academy graduates really underline this, with all of them outstanding athletes - Hudson-Odoi obviously, Mount & James very quick over short distances, even Billy Gilmour possesses the ability to burst past a player, something that similar players like Josh McEachran never really had.

At the same time, technique is definitely important. The pace of the game has changed dramatically such that if you can't retain possession or beat the press you increasingly have a limited role on a top-tier team. Players are much fitter and can pressure you just as effectively in the 89th minute as the 1st minute. The cost of losing possession has also never been higher, with even the 20th-ranked team in the EPL easily able to afford 10m+ forward who will punish you (eg West Brom). Defensive tactics are bipolar - either teams sit extremely deep and require you to pass through packed blocks, or teams play extremely high lines that require defenders/midfielders to make pin-point passes.

Lowest of these priorities is certainly physicality. Being 6'6" at centre-back means nothing if you can't actually jump to contest with an athletic 6" striker with a 35" vertical jump, and you don't have the technique to head the ball out of the danger area.

Well I think character/sports brain is the 4th thing, perhaps the hardest to measure, but no less important. Whether you call it grace under pressure, or coolness, or just the tendency to instantly find the correct solution to the problem its something all great players have. This is most obvious in goal scoring. Lampard was arguably no more skilled or athletic than Kovacic but th one can sore 20 goals a season and the other zero. Kova has a lots of skills but can't hit the target under pressure.  In my opinion you could find a bunch of players who are reasonably similar to Ronaldo for athleticism and skill and physique but there is only one Ronaldo. Still we are a long way from the topic of whether Kounde is signing or not. I sure hope he is.

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4 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I wholly agree with your sentiment but not the bolded part. I think that athleticism - separate from technique and physicality - is what trumps all in modern sport and in truth always has been the different between the average and the great, and the great and the world-class.

If physicality refers to size and height, athleticism is the ability to express physiological advantage in the form of speed, agility and power. A 6' 6" giant who can't jump or run is called John Obi Mikel useless compared to a 5'10" who can jump 40" in the air. Football isn't a static sport and the more the tempo of the game increases, the more this rings true. 

Physically - in terms of pure height and size - there is little that separates Cristiano Ronaldo from many of the world's forwards. Athletically, however, no other forward has been able to express their speed, acceleration and leap in the same way he has for over a decade. Athleticism is what makes people describe Kai Havertz as a 'unicorn'. There are many young players with a combination of his technique and speed, or his technique and height; there are very very few who have all three. We've also seen a rise in extreme athletes eg Mbappe/Traore/Werner being the quickest of the quick or Zouma having both height and sheer athletic jumping ability.

The only exception to this rule would be in goalkeeping, where having a shorter player puts you at a disadvantage because the baseline athletic ability of goalkeepers is more or less the same regardless of height.

I think our transfer policy in recent years has definitely reflected this. Since 2015 we have focused on signing much more athletic players at senior and youth level. Our recent Academy graduates really underline this, with all of them outstanding athletes - Hudson-Odoi obviously, Mount & James very quick over short distances, even Billy Gilmour possesses the ability to burst past a player, something that similar players like Josh McEachran never really had.

At the same time, technique is definitely important. The pace of the game has changed dramatically such that if you can't retain possession or beat the press you increasingly have a limited role on a top-tier team. Players are much fitter and can pressure you just as effectively in the 89th minute as the 1st minute. The cost of losing possession has also never been higher, with even the 20th-ranked team in the EPL easily able to afford 10m+ forward who will punish you (eg West Brom). Defensive tactics are bipolar - either teams sit extremely deep and require you to pass through packed blocks, or teams play extremely high lines that require defenders/midfielders to make pin-point passes.

Lowest of these priorities is certainly physicality. Being 6'6" at centre-back means nothing if you can't actually jump to contest with an athletic 6" striker with a 35" vertical jump, and you don't have the technique to head the ball out of the danger area.

I didn't really explain myself too well,I didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't think physicality was important atall what I more mean is I don't think it's as big a leveller to technical inferiority as many think and we found that out the hard way under Mou 2.0/Conte in Europe. 

To bring my first example again the PSG game, we on paper had a more physical imposing side at that point but despite all our best efforts a 10 man Paris side had us chasing our tail. We benefited similarly this year, an Atletico side that on paper should have bullied us off the park couldn't lay a glove on us.

The way I think it's overrated is in the sense that there (admitedly I'm using the most extreme example but still) are people that genuinely thought Pep's Barca would have got found out if they faced Stoke and been unable to handle the physical aspect of the match, in reality Barca would have absolutely took them to the cleaners even if it was wet and at The Britannia.

Edited by Argo
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3 hours ago, ozboy said:

Well I think character/sports brain is the 4th thing, perhaps the hardest to measure, but no less important. Whether you call it grace under pressure, or coolness, or just the tendency to instantly find the correct solution to the problem its something all great players have. This is most obvious in goal scoring. Lampard was arguably no more skilled or athletic than Kovacic but th one can sore 20 goals a season and the other zero. Kova has a lots of skills but can't hit the target under pressure.  In my opinion you could find a bunch of players who are reasonably similar to Ronaldo for athleticism and skill and physique but there is only one Ronaldo. Still we are a long way from the topic of whether Kounde is signing or not. I sure hope he is.

Agreed wholly except to say character/mentality is much higher than 4th - it is perhaps the most important overall. You don't make it as a professional without it and you don't have the ability to make game-changing plays without it.

There are many players in history with Drogba's physical and technical gifts but few if any with his ability to change a big game.

 

7 minutes ago, Argo said:

I didn't really explain myself too well,I didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't think physicality was important atall what I more mean is I don't think it's as big a leveller to technical inferiority as many think and we found that out the hard way under Mou 2.0/Conte in Europe. 

To bring my first example again the PSG game, we on paper had a more physical imposing side at that point but despite all our best efforts a 10 man Paris side had us chasing our tail. We benefited similarly this year, an Atletico side that on paper should have bullied us off the park couldn't lay a glove on us.

The way I think it's overrated is in the sense that there (admitedly im using the most extreme example but still) are people that genuinely thought Pep's Barca would have got found out if they faced Stoke and been unable to handle the physical aspect of the match, in reality Barca would have absolutely took them to the cleaners even if it was wet and at The Britannia.

Yep, maybe time has dulled the memories of just how poor we were in Europe over the last 5-6 years - our away record over the last decade has been abysmal. Part of that has been tactical, with Mourinho and Conte eschewing game control in favour of deeper defenses and counter-attacking plays. The problem is you need technically-gifted players to maintain control of the game and make plays count, if you want to play that style of football. Under Lampard was the first time in a long time that I saw Chelsea teams seek to dominate control/possession in big games for a long time, and under Tuchel we showed insane flexibility to either dominate or counter according to the stage and phase of the game.

Edited by SydneyChelsea
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On 03/08/2021 at 15:20, ozboy said:

In my opinion you could find a bunch of players who are reasonably similar to Ronaldo for athleticism and skill and physique but there is only one Ronaldo. 

Well Yea, Ronaldo Lima was one in a billion. 

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8 hours ago, ozboy said:

Romano still saying Kounde chelsea priority but haggling over Zouma. I could see Kounde being used as defensive midfielder, we clearly have to replace billy

I suspect we will end up having to pay cash. Zouma may end up leaving but doesn't look set on Sevilla. They haven't shown interest in any other squad players so we may not be able to do a part-exchange.

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1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Question is do we need to sign him with Trev Chalobah showing good signs?

Yes. Full France international versus a youth unproven. No question you take Kounde over Chalobah. Plenty of room in the team in the future anyways. Silva gone after this season, Azpilicueta on his last few legs, Zouma on his way out, and could see Rüdiger leave in the next year too.

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4 hours ago, mwblue10 said:

Yes. Full France international versus a youth unproven. No question you take Kounde over Chalobah. Plenty of room in the team in the future anyways. Silva gone after this season, Azpilicueta on his last few legs, Zouma on his way out, and could see Rüdiger leave in the next year too.

Seems the club agree with you. While Lukaku is the priority and I expect to see done first, have seen it said Sevilla, Chelsea and Kounde are very confident this deal happens. All 3 are happy to wait till the end of the window to get a deal they are happy with and Kounde is said to have be told by us we will make sure it gets across the line as we want him to be our defensive lynch pin for years to come.

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We are shipping Zouma and or Emerson out first to make this deal. I think it will happen if Sevilla and Chelsea can find a price suitable for both sides. As Kounde is ready to leave that price will be found I am sure. Not sure if Sevilla is a club hard to bargain with. 

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13 hours ago, mwblue10 said:

Yes. Full France international versus a youth unproven. No question you take Kounde over Chalobah. Plenty of room in the team in the future anyways. Silva gone after this season, Azpilicueta on his last few legs, Zouma on his way out, and could see Rüdiger leave in the next year too.

Not saying he isn’t a good player but to put his “full cap” into perspective, he just recently earned those at the Euros. Not sure we can say Trevor is unproven, he has done what has been asked of him which is gone on loan for 3 seasons (spent the last season in French). At 22, he is at the age where you either sell him or integrate him into The squad.  With his contract expiring in 2 season, it’s a bit pointless loaning him out again this season.

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12 hours ago, ducavis said:

Not saying he isn’t a good player but to put his “full cap” into perspective, he just recently earned those at the Euros. Not sure we can say Trevor is unproven, he has done what has been asked of him which is gone on loan for 3 seasons (spent the last season in French). At 22, he is at the age where you either sell him or integrate him into The squad.  With his contract expiring in 2 season, it’s a bit pointless loaning him out again this season.

Agree with that. Chalobah deserves to be playing regularly, and looks good enough for a few teams, but is he is a good as Kounde? We don't need both even if Zouma goes. Silva will play less probably this season. Christenson, Rudigier, Silva, Dave and then two of Kounde, Zouma and Chalobah is a lot of defenders. Dave and Silva are getting to the end.

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