Playing maatsen at right wing was just wrong assuming madueke was fit enough to start.  Not fair to either player.  However Maatsen did miss a good chance so maybe there was something in it. The more Colwill plays at left back the worse it looks. I don’t see how it could be worse with maatsen. Maatsen is short but has the pace and probably will play in better left back  positions than Colwill. 

in the end they scored from a space the left back should have covered. It’s about the third or fourth goal given up in the same fashion. As a defensive unit it’s not sufficiently well organised at this level. 

the way we played defensive at the end wasn’t the way I’d do it and I think the team doesn’t believe in itself. 

to me it just doesn’t feel like a proper team …. Yet. I think it could be done better and in fact I don’t think Caicedo is fit. 

17 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

I agree - but would actually go further. I put out there that poch has us creating far more chances than we have at any other point over the last few seasons. We have regularly complained about not creating enough - only a couple of half chances per game. Well - that feels a thing of the past. We actually are creating a lot more - and that should be held up as progression and a small win.

I have said, since Potter was here, that we need to take the small wins and be patient.  For me, the fact that we are now creating genuine, clear cut chances, is a massive positive and progression since the days of Tuchel - when we struggled to create anything. Of course, we have not yet seen that translated into goals or points, but we should still recognise and celebrate the small progressions.

I agree that we have to be patient and realize that you can't build a new team overnight, especially given the lack of experience in the squad. Pochettino has nothing to do with the individual quality of the players he's inherited and has had a very little time and a sh*tload of long term injuries to deal with to be properly assessed. Even with all our problems if we had a proper goalscorer upfront, we'd probably be around sixth spot at the moment, given the amount of chances we waste per game.

1 hour ago, abramovich said:

I agree that we have to be patient and realize that you can't build a new team overnight, especially given the lack of experience in the squad. Pochettino has nothing to do with the individual quality of the players he's inherited and has had a very little time and a sh*tload of long term injuries to deal with to be properly assessed. Even with all our problems if we had a proper goalscorer upfront, we'd probably be around sixth spot at the moment, given the amount of chances we waste per game.

Is it not hard to see what he's trying to build though? It certainly is for me.

Perhaps i'm alone in this but i'd rather take a terribly unfortunate draw after a dominant performance over a lucky win over a poor side these days. Why? Because 3 points doesn't do all that much for us anymore, we are still going to fail to reach our CL-qualification goal.

What I would like to see is signs of a coherent team coming together and that includes build-up, general control and attacking patterns. But instead of that we still see square pegs in round holes and our actual build-up have never been worse in my opinion.

Right now we look like the football equivalent of a brawler. Unsophisticated and no real thought behind anything but we are prepared to have a go and try and draw our opponents into a slugfest and hope we land more punches than the opponent.

 

 

 

18 hours ago, olderschoolcfc said:

We'd probably take more away fans to lower league teams than home fans... Get to try out some pies and alternative travel destinations. Who wants Rome when there's morecambe! 🙂 

just the way the football chip cookie crumbles. up and down. TBH, its exactly what the new owners and players deserve, It would also mean we have to rely totally on the youth team and we'd build a pretty strong side from that, and we could offload most underperforming players. 

 

Rarely go to the bridge nowadays. It's bad enough watching the turgid, boring side to side, playing  (i mean f**king around) at the back so called football on the TV.

Normally watch my local team Slough, who play in the National League South. Good honest football, commitment, cheap, local and a beer throughout the game.

But my fav. football is watching my Grandson play in the under eights.

3 hours ago, ozboy said:

Playing maatsen at right wing was just wrong assuming madueke was fit enough to start.  Not fair to either player.  However Maatsen did miss a good chance so maybe there was something in it. The more Colwill plays at left back the worse it looks. I don’t see how it could be worse with maatsen. Maatsen is short but has the pace and probably will play in better left back  positions than Colwill. 

in the end they scored from a space the left back should have covered. It’s about the third or fourth goal given up in the same fashion. As a defensive unit it’s not sufficiently well organised at this level. 

the way we played defensive at the end wasn’t the way I’d do it and I think the team doesn’t believe in itself. 

to me it just doesn’t feel like a proper team …. Yet. I think it could be done better and in fact I don’t think Caicedo is fit. 

Yeah I have no idea what he's doing at times. Putting a LB at right wing, then a CB at LB made no sense to begin with, but to then take of Colwill and move Gusto to LB was just idiotic, he had been easily our best player so why move him? All while leaving the liability Badiashile on the pitch. A good coach would have shifted Colwill to CB, move Maatsen to LB and bring Madueke on to right wing.

Also, his set piece defensive setup is a complete f**king shambles. 

Some people are referring to creating lots of chances and blaming forwards for not scoring. Problem is deeper than that.

3 shots in the second half, 1 on target and that was the pen which was a rash challenge when we had lost the ball. That’s not near good enough for the amount of ball we are having. Boring, tedious sh*t is what Poch is producing. 
 

Maatsen will get targeted at LB why is that so hard to understand can you imagine Maatsen going up against Crystal Palace forward yesterday he would lose every single duel. Premier league teams would put their striker on him and target him from goal kicks and diagonal passes, how is this so hard to comprehend. 
There is a reason Poch is the manager and we are not. Poch likes big defenders he played Vertongen at left back at Spurs most until Danny rose and up to the task.

Playing Maatsen at LB is similar to playing Sterling at LB they are the same height or Maatsen is even shorter  and no just because he played well in the championship in that position doesn’t mean it can work in the PL look at Burnley now.

Edited December 28, 20232 yr by El regreso

12 minutes ago, El regreso said:

Maatsen will get targeted at LB why is that so hard to understand can you imagine Maatsen going up against Crystal Palace forward yesterday he would lose every single duel. Premier league teams would put their striker on him and target him from goal kicks and diagonal passes, how is this so hard to comprehend. 
There is a reason Poch is the manager and we are not. Poch likes big defenders he played Vertongen at left back at Spurs most until Danny rose and up to the task.

Playing Maatsen at LB is similar to playing Sterling at LB they are the same height or Maatsen is even shorter  and no just because he played well in the championship in that position doesn’t mean it can work in the PL look at Burnley now.

You make some good points but as it is the exact opposite happens. Fast speedy wingers run rings round Colwill. Colwill is only by accident in the right position either in attack or defence. Poch won’t even try it all season which I think is ridiculous.
he persists with Colwill at left back when we can all see it doesn’t work  

Poch has done some good things but our set piece defending is garbage.

Players have developed bad habits, eg Colwill holding players which should be coached out. Tuchel for instance apparently made players wear socks on their hands to stop players holding. Just saying Poch is the manager and we are not and therefore Poch is right doesn’t cut it. 

Anyway on to Lutron. 
 

 

3 minutes ago, ozboy said:

You make some good points but as it is the exact opposite happens. Fast speedy wingers run rings round Colwill. Colwill is only by accident in the right position either in attack or defence. Poch won’t even try it all season which I think is ridiculous.
he persists with Colwill at left back when we can all see it doesn’t work  

Poch has done some good things but our set piece defending is garbage.

Players have developed bad habits, eg Colwill holding players which should be coached out. Tuchel for instance apparently made players wear socks on their hands to stop players holding. Just saying Poch is the manager and we are not and therefore Poch is right doesn’t cut it. 

Anyway on to Lutron. 
 

 

Well he is the manager mate and until he’s sacked we have to trust what he sees in training dictates the team he picks.

Do you think he just randomly comes up with the starting 11?

Colwill at LB isn’t an issue tactically as he doesn’t want his FB interfering with wingers it’s more that Colwill has a lot to learn defensively he’s been overhype too quickly. 
When I watched him at CB he has the same issues so him playing at LB doesn’t change much.

2 minutes ago, El regreso said:

Colwill at LB isn’t an issue tactically as he doesn’t want his FB interfering with wingers

Interfering is an interesting choice of words 😂

Overlapping and opening up space for the winger and striker is generally a fantastic idea.

 

2 hours ago, OriginalS said:

Is it not hard to see what he's trying to build though? It certainly is for me.

Perhaps i'm alone in this but i'd rather take a terribly unfortunate draw after a dominant performance over a lucky win over a poor side these days. Why? Because 3 points doesn't do all that much for us anymore, we are still going to fail to reach our CL-qualification goal.

What I would like to see is signs of a coherent team coming together and that includes build-up, general control and attacking patterns. But instead of that we still see square pegs in round holes and our actual build-up have never been worse in my opinion.

Right now we look like the football equivalent of a brawler. Unsophisticated and no real thought behind anything but we are prepared to have a go and try and draw our opponents into a slugfest and hope we land more punches than the opponent.

 

 

 

I guess everyone sees what they want to see. I agree with your criticism and I don't think there's a lot of Chelsea fans out there happy about what they're watching on the pitch.

My point is, given the circumstances, we have to be patient and allow the manager to do his job. He hasn't walked into a dressing room full of established world class winners back in the summer, he's basically in charge of a group of young players with potential that management thought were worth investing lots of money. Some of them may in time develop into top footballers, others will be no more than decent and the rest will never amount to much.

Also,  constant injuries keep derailing whatever hopes of building something coherent and consistent the management team have in mind. Even if we had most players available since the start of the season the aforementioned problems would still be a factor, but when you keep losing key players for long periods of time, it's near impossible to build something proper. That's also where lack of experienced established players who could lead by example and help the younger teammates in difficult moments is also apparent.

His subs and team selection were strange yesterday and have been throughout his tenure. 

No major difference in yesterdays performance vs the rest of the season but at least they managed to grind out a win. 

5 hours ago, goose said:

Some people are referring to creating lots of chances and blaming forwards for not scoring. Problem is deeper than that.

3 shots in the second half, 1 on target and that was the pen which was a rash challenge when we had lost the ball. That’s not near good enough for the amount of ball we are having. Boring, tedious sh*t is what Poch is producing. 
 

If we bury the chance we had early in the second half we get more opportunities to attack on the counter rather than Crystal Palace sitting deep.

our forward also have been extremely poor at any hold up play aswell which means poor game management and the goals we concede especially in transition..

1 hour ago, Jangz said:

If we bury the chance we had early in the second half we get more opportunities to attack on the counter rather than Crystal Palace sitting deep.

our forward also have been extremely poor at any hold up play aswell which means poor game management and the goals we concede especially in transition..

I’m not just referring to last nights match though, this is time and time again. Were are not attacking enough and when in possession we are content to just knock it about the back which it just what sitting back teams want. As for last nights match CP, for a lot of the match, were  playing a high line and pressing our midfield and defenders.

How many times do we have good crossing positions only to check back, loose the opportunity and pass back to our CBs and even ends up with the keeper and the whole boring process starts again. 
 
Check the stats of any other ‘top team’ and they have at least twice the number of attempts with the sort of possession we are having.

 

5 minutes ago, goose said:

I’m not just referring to last nights match though, this is time and time again. Were are not attacking enough and when in possession we are content to just knock it about the back which it just what sitting back teams want. As for last nights match CP, for a lot of the match, were  playing a high line and pressing our midfield and defenders.

How many times do we have good crossing positions only to check back, loose the opportunity and pass back to our CBs and even ends up with the keeper and the whole boring process starts again. 
 
Check the stats of any other ‘top team’ and they have at least twice the number of attempts with the sort of possession we are having.

 

It's an interesting point. Saw a stat that showed the bulk of our possession play comes in our own third. Moreso than any other club in the Top 6. 

This issue pre-dates Poch though. There is something engraved in our style of play that restricts direct passing in favor of riskless possession. 

6 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

It's an interesting point. Saw a stat that showed the bulk of our possession play comes in our own third. Moreso than any other club in the Top 6. 

This issue pre-dates Poch though. There is something engraved in our style of play that restricts direct passing in favor of riskless possession. 

Definitely pre Poch, started with Sarriball.

Really hoped that Poch could have changed things up and we’d become less boring and more competitive.

11 hours ago, ozboy said:

Playing maatsen at right wing was just wrong assuming madueke was fit enough to start.  Not fair to either player.  However Maatsen did miss a good chance so maybe there was something in it. The more Colwill plays at left back the worse it looks. I don’t see how it could be worse with maatsen. Maatsen is short but has the pace and probably will play in better left back  positions than Colwill. 

in the end they scored from a space the left back should have covered. It’s about the third or fourth goal given up in the same fashion. As a defensive unit it’s not sufficiently well organised at this level. 

the way we played defensive at the end wasn’t the way I’d do it and I think the team doesn’t believe in itself. 

to me it just doesn’t feel like a proper team …. Yet. I think it could be done better and in fact I don’t think Caicedo is fit. 

So painful watching Colwill at LB, the worst part being that it's exposed his lack of defensive ability. He's clearly very talented but has made some big mistakes (defensive basics) and I'm wondering is this from not playing in his natural position or because he's still very raw.

Only time will tell, but I do agree this experiment has to end. I still don't understand why we went for Cucurella when we had Emerson all we had to do was wait for his loan to end. We would have saved £60m and put it to use elsewhere. 

13 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

It's an interesting point. Saw a stat that showed the bulk of our possession play comes in our own third. Moreso than any other club in the Top 6. 

This issue pre-dates Poch though. There is something engraved in our style of play that restricts direct passing in favor of riskless possession. 

4 minutes ago, goose said:

Definitely pre Poch, started with Sarriball.

Really hoped that Poch could have changed things up and we’d become less boring and more competitive.

I agree it predates Pochettino, if you watch City, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs currently one trend sets them apart from us. They play back to front lightning quick compared to us.

Yes, sometimes you have to play it patiently and not waste possession, but other times you need to have the players with the ability to find their teammates off the ball movement. I don't know if we lack the ability to play the pass since Fabregas left or it's just in our recent club DNA to have pointless slow posession.

Some teams can cut through with 2-3 passes, and whilst on transition we have made some lightning quick passages of play. More often than not we slow the attack down in moments we don't need to. Even off our own corners we go back to the keeper more often than not when an attack breaks down rather than utilising the numbers in the opposing box/half.

 

 

14 minutes ago, goose said:

Definitely pre Poch, started with Sarriball.

Really hoped that Poch could have changed things up and we’d become less boring and more competitive.

Possession play certainly started with Sarri but this continuous recycling of the ball started with Tuchel. Under Sarri, our touches in our own defensive end was 31%, which is in line with the clubs in the current Top 6 atm.

Under Tuchel in 21/22, our touches in the defensive end was 35% and under Poch right now its at a whopping 43%. 

Stats taken from FBREF

Edited December 28, 20232 yr by Sconnie Blue

2 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I agree it predates Pochettino, if you watch City, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs currently one trend sets them apart from us. They play back to front lightning quick compared to us.

Yes, sometimes you have to play it patiently and not waste possession, but other times you need to have the players with the ability to find their teammates off the ball movement. I don't know if we lack the ability to play the pass since Fabregas left or it's just in our recent club DNA to have pointless slow posession.

Some teams can cut through with 2-3 passes, and whilst on transition we have made some lightning quick passages of play. More often than not we slow the attack down in moments we don't need to. Even off our own corners we go back to the keeper more often than not when an attack breaks down rather than utilising the numbers in the opposing box/half.

 

 

Agree with this. Also i am really noticing the difference in the amount of forward passes that we make and the likes of those you have named along with Villa as well. Brighton play a slightly different version where they bait the opposition into shutting them down and then try to play forwards rapidly through the spaces but it is still all about forward balls. We seem to try this for the first 20 minutes of games, but it cannot seem to be sustained.

1 minute ago, WhiteWall said:

Agree with this. Also i am really noticing the difference in the amount of forward passes that we make and the likes of those you have named along with Villa as well. Brighton play a slightly different version where they bait the opposition into shutting them down and then try to play forwards rapidly through the spaces but it is still all about forward balls. We seem to try this for the first 20 minutes of games, but it cannot seem to be sustained.

After the past 12 months I quite despise Brighton, but I must admit the way they do what you've described is very impressive. 

When you consider our injury list, perhaps we would play a much more fluid brand of football or Pochettino's football with a settled team. 

It can't be underrated he has lacked his first choice fullbacks for the majority of the past 4 months and star attacker. Clearly this will have an effect on what he wants. However, playing 4 cbs in our starting lineup is not going to allow us to play back to front quickly unless they're coached by Pep Guardiola and they're actually DMs in disguise 😂. 

I think Pochettino has taken total football too far by playing cbs as full backs, full backs as wingers, wingers as strikers and CMs/DMs as AMs. Maybe he needs to go back to basics and play players in their actual positions to see fluid football

Maatsen can't be that bad at LB surely? 

He has to stop playing Colwill at LB though, it's getting ridiculous. He keeps making too many defensive errors and he's not exactly providing an overlap because he's a CB... He can play in a few good balls but so could Cucurella. We need someone who's a runner on that side and can bomb down the channel when necessary. 

It's not fair to Colwill either, it's hindering his development. We know he's talented, we need to play him as a CB and stop playing him out of position. Just play Maatsen there or hell even one of our reserve/U18's, whoever it is, as long as it's a natural f**king LB. Playing CB's at fullback is completely killing us, it doesn't help us any more defensively than it does offensively, so it's f**king useless. 

38 minutes ago, Victor90 said:

Maatsen can't be that bad at LB surely? 

He has to stop playing Colwill at LB though, it's getting ridiculous. He keeps making too many defensive errors and he's not exactly providing an overlap because he's a CB... He can play in a few good balls but so could Cucurella. We need someone who's a runner on that side and can bomb down the channel when necessary. 

It's not fair to Colwill either, it's hindering his development. We know he's talented, we need to play him as a CB and stop playing him out of position. Just play Maatsen there or hell even one of our reserve/U18's, whoever it is, as long as it's a natural f**king LB. Playing CB's at fullback is completely killing us, it doesn't help us any more defensively than it does offensively, so it's f**king useless. 

Maatsen didn't even get played LB at Burnley much last season in the Championship. He was preferred further forward as his defensive abilities were seen to be questionable. 

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Possession play certainly started with Sarri but this continuous recycling of the ball started with Tuchel. Under Sarri, our touches in our own defensive end was 31%, which is in line with the clubs in the current Top 6 atm.

Under Tuchel in 21/22, our touches in the defensive end was 35% and under Poch right now its at a whopping 43%. 

Stats taken from FBREF

Which bit of FBRef are you looking at ? The possession stats ?

 

 

16 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Which bit of FBRef are you looking at ? The possession stats ?

 

 

Yes, i think he is. (1,440+4,557)/13,910 = 43.11%