12 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Big IF there mate.

With our woeful record of late at the Bridge and vs Brighton, plus our terrible record at OT, did you think we can manage 1 win nevermind 2?

That works both ways.

Poch has a 100% winning record against De Zerbi and away to Ten Hag.

37 minutes ago, Argo said:

In fairness i do get he needs to be held to high standards due to the price tag I can accept he's fallen a little below THAT level but under no reasonable performance metric he has been average or worse.

I think he's been decent myself but only occasionally has he been top class like v Liverpool. And for the price and fanfare I think we all expected more.

Weren't you completely on the "revolutionary signing" train when we were after him back in January? For all he's been and for some pretty stats he's certainly not been that.

1 hour ago, OriginalS said:

I think he's been decent myself but only occasionally has he been top class like v Liverpool. And for the price and fanfare I think we all expected more.

Weren't you completely on the "revolutionary signing" train when we were after him back in January? For all he's been and for some pretty stats he's certainly not been that.

He's literally been no different performance/metrics wise than Toni Kroos who has been getting amazing plaudits at Real Madrid this season. 

One team is doing well, the other isn't. 

On 28/11/2023 at 00:19, Gol15 said:

With all that you don't really see him dictating any match ever since he switched from being at the base of the midfield to this new role.

Sure he gets all the benefits from having a more free role but he's not solving any match nor is he offering a system or some buffer for any kind of stability. I still believe that this change hurt him more, yes he is more free to pass the ball around but we don't really look like an organized team, it's not even about his shooting it's about just how much effort is being translated into a successful result.

I said it before the season started and I can without any problems say it again, Enzo needs a player in front of him in order to run the matches, not a player behind him. We signed Caicedo and even Gallagher is doing a lot of defensive work so in practice Enzo hurt himself by putting on that number 8, he should have stayed as a direct upgrade on Jorginho at the base of the midfield and we would be winning more matches.

 

Deep midifelder who can't defend was a trend for a while but football has moved on from that. 

Teams has realized that having your "luxury" player in non dangerous position is just stupid. 

On 27/11/2023 at 19:37, petre ispirescu said:

Can't agree with this. The current squad is tailor made for someone like De Zerbi. 

The midfield pivot of Enzo and Caicedo is perfect, both hard workers AND possession players, Palmer at "10" would simply be great under De Zerbi and the wingers (Nkunku, Sterling, Mudryk and Madueke) are perfect for his style of play. 

James and Chilwell are two of the best full backs in the league and Colwill has already worked with De Zerbi. 

I mean it won't happen, he will probably go to Liverpool or City, it all depends on who is going to leave first, Pep or Klopp, but this current Chelsea squad is simply perfect for him. 

 

I think we need to see more example whether circuit ball can really work long term in top team. 

We have tried it with Sarri and it was a disaster. 

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

Deep midifelder who can't defend was a trend for a while but football has moved on from that. 

Teams has realized that having your "luxury" player in non dangerous position is just stupid. 

In all honesty I see no difference from last season, switching Enzo from playing deeper to playing what he does now hasn't proven to be a better tactical option defensively speaking. 

Is there any real evidence for that, "Enzo can't defend", or is it just the trend to say that no matter who plays there? Is the same true for Caicedo as well since we conceded 20 in 13 this season so far?

It can't be understated that it matters more what you do when you have possession and how you actually play, something that was very clear in the last match vs Newcastle was that we couldn't switch the game to the opposition half for more than a minute each time we had the ball and we had no way of controlling the match at all, good luck trying to defend like that against a well drilled team for 90 minutes.

Look at those other teams, they put as many players as possible that are capable of keeping possession and making something happen. It's far more important for the player at the base of the midfield to have options in front of him, it's far more beneficial to have players that press.

Enzo had MacAllister and DePaul doing that for him and it worked out well, looks like it's working for teams I mean look at Newcastle, they played with Bruno Guilmaraes at the base of the midfield and around him as many players that can press as possible, look at Liverpool I assure you their plan was to play with Szoboszlai and MacAllister more forward, both were supposed to press and create opportunities as both are more known as offensive, versatile players but they can compensate with MacAllister playing more defensively because they are not playing reactive football, you do that you already lost the match, this is what teams have realized.

On 27/11/2023 at 15:43, Sconnie Blue said:

I think its fair to question Poch and what the actual plan is with these 2 players in particular. We saw Chilwell get a run at LW over Mudryk and Gallagher continues to shift into RW to allow Palmer more space through the channel to affect our attack. Madueke is an afterthought until its throw the kitchen sink time. 

 

Madueke, as much as i like him, doesn't look like he'll have a future with us sadly in the immediate future. Think he definitely stays this January then probably leaves in Summer for a loan with Angelo possibly coming back and getting a chance. Then obviously the year after Paez joins up and both Madueke and Angelo are either rotating on the bench or loaned out again.

Mudryk needs to work on his game massively to be starting over Sterling. Been reported recently that Lampard was impressed by Mudryk's talent but shocked by how little he's been coached to play the game. IMO Mudryk is a long term project, probably ready to start by the time Paez joins up. Took Martinelli 3 seasons to even look like a footballer in England. Not what you want to hear about a £65m signing but its the harsh reality. 

Bring on 2025.

4 hours ago, Gol15 said:

In all honesty I see no difference from last season, switching Enzo from playing deeper to playing what he does now hasn't proven to be a better tactical option defensively speaking. 

Is there any real evidence for that, "Enzo can't defend", or is it just the trend to say that no matter who plays there? Is the same true for Caicedo as well since we conceded 20 in 13 this season so far?

It can't be understated that it matters more what you do when you have possession and how you actually play, something that was very clear in the last match vs Newcastle was that we couldn't switch the game to the opposition half for more than a minute each time we had the ball and we had no way of controlling the match at all, good luck trying to defend like that against a well drilled team for 90 minutes.

Look at those other teams, they put as many players as possible that are capable of keeping possession and making something happen. It's far more important for the player at the base of the midfield to have options in front of him, it's far more beneficial to have players that press.

Enzo had MacAllister and DePaul doing that for him and it worked out well, looks like it's working for teams I mean look at Newcastle, they played with Bruno Guilmaraes at the base of the midfield and around him as many players that can press as possible, look at Liverpool I assure you their plan was to play with Szoboszlai and MacAllister more forward, both were supposed to press and create opportunities as both are more known as offensive, versatile players but they can compensate with MacAllister playing more defensively because they are not playing reactive football, you do that you already lost the match, this is what teams have realized.

Its not that Enzo can't defend, its that he shouldn't be defending. Same way Cesc had Matic next to him to do the dirty work for him. Caicedo lost 1/3 of the amount of duals that Enzo loses, he's a good foil for Enzo. 

Just need Enzo to start impacting the game in an attacking sense now. TBF, a lot of his good moves have gone unnoticed because our attack has been so wasteful with chances. 

14 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Its not that Enzo can't defend, its that he shouldn't be defending. Same way Cesc had Matic next to him to do the dirty work for him. Caicedo lost 1/3 of the amount of duals that Enzo loses, he's a good foil for Enzo. 

Just need Enzo to start impacting the game in an attacking sense now. TBF, a lot of his good moves have gone unnoticed because our attack has been so wasteful with chances. Cl

Every midifelder need to be able to defend. Fabregas was actually pretty good positionally. He was just too slow. 

The only way you can get away of having midfielder who can't defend is if you have Kante in your midfield. Heck with Kante sometimes you think playing cb is redundant 

 

Edited November 29, 20232 yr by Bob stark

Enzo often has the right idea defensively but doesn't quite go about it in the most optimal way.

He'll close down the right players, but wont bend his run to ensure he stays goal-side whilst closing them down, for example. That can definitely be coached and hopefully will improve as he matures.
I think in possession he's superb at helping us escape pressure, someone compared him to Kroos in a comment above and I think that's a great comp, both move into really similar positions when their backline have the ball and offer great outlets.

Obviously he could be better defensively, but he's far from awful, and save for when he's lost his man at a set piece, I don't think many we've conceded are his fault.

Both Enzo and Caicedo are guilty of the same mistakes. 

- Over pressing and leaving space in the defensive transition. 

- Being dragged out of position from an attacker/midfielder. 

- Losing their marker off the 2nd ball from a set piece/cross. 

4 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Both Enzo and Caicedo are guilty of the same mistakes. 

- Over pressing and leaving space in the defensive transition. 

- Being dragged out of position from an attacker/midfielder. 

- Losing their marker off the 2nd ball from a set piece/cross. 

Both were highly ranked prior to us signing them and both cost a whole lot. Both are supposed to be upgrades on what we previously had.

The one match Enzo missed, Caicedo did play and we lost 2:0 at home against Brentford. So either neither of them can defend or we actually don't have a proper system in place yet.

The only signing I haven't been hugely underwhelmed by since these new owners came in, is Palmer. Everyone else has been sh*t.

37 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

So either neither of them can defend or we actually don't have a proper system in place yet.

Believe its the latter. Lot's has been done on our build up play but defensively we still are a work in progress. 

16 hours ago, cfr95 said:

Enzo often has the right idea defensively but doesn't quite go about it in the most optimal way.

He'll close down the right players, but wont bend his run to ensure he stays goal-side whilst closing them down, for example. That can definitely be coached and hopefully will improve as he matures.
I think in possession he's superb at helping us escape pressure, someone compared him to Kroos in a comment above and I think that's a great comp, both move into really similar positions when their backline have the ball and offer great outlets.

Obviously he could be better defensively, but he's far from awful, and save for when he's lost his man at a set piece, I don't think many we've conceded are his fault.

I am not concerned with Enzo at all. So far so good. Like you said, many problem defensively but fixable. 

 

 

On 29/11/2023 at 03:15, Bob stark said:

I think we need to see more example whether circuit ball can really work long term in top team. 

We have tried it with Sarri and it was a disaster. 

Devils advocate, was a top four finish and European cup not a successful season? Certainly wouldn't call it a disaster. 

On 30/11/2023 at 05:19, Gol15 said:

Both were highly ranked prior to us signing them and both cost a whole lot. Both are supposed to be upgrades on what we previously had.

The one match Enzo missed, Caicedo did play and we lost 2:0 at home against Brentford. So either neither of them can defend or we actually don't have a proper system in place yet.

The idea that Caicedo can't defend is laughable as you know Gol. He is likely one of the best guys in the league at regaining possession but he's more than that. He can also drive forward a la Kova and as he's shown he knows where the goal is.

Whether through injury or what ever he just hasn't had the minutes to really stamp his influence on this team yet. The first thing is probably to swap him an Enzo. I find it frustrating that most if not all the pieces are there but the picture isn't visible.

9 hours ago, olderschoolcfc said:

Devils advocate, was a top four finish and European cup not a successful season? Certainly wouldn't call it a disaster. 

Standard has dropped drastically since the took over, if we finished an Europa spot this season it will be called a success, 5 years ago the manager be sacked before the end of year function.

12 hours ago, olderschoolcfc said:

Devils advocate, was a top four finish and European cup not a successful season? Certainly wouldn't call it a disaster. 

We had hazard. 

We started brightly but after team found out how we play it was basically waiting for Hazard to stop playing circuit ball and win game for us. 

If we conceded first, it was basically game over. 

 

December will pretty much determine where we finish this season. There are seven league games and a cup quarterfinal in December. Many of the league games are of the CFC is favourite variety.

We have a big squad. If everyone was match fit, the system was bedded down and confidence was high it would be a great opportunity to make a run. Of course everyone isn't fit, the system isn't bedded down and confidence is fragile.

I hope for Poch and our sakes he can get it roughly right during December.

There are simply too many doom and gloom here and too many 😵‍💫😵‍💫 debate. 

I don't think we need to debate anything about Enzo. He is fine. 

Or silva. He is 39.

The more fun debate will be what happen once we get Nkunku back. Is it going to be Palmer as 10 or Conor as 10? 

99% here will say Palmer but Conor pressing, running and defending are far superior than Palmer.

Probably this and how to use Lavia is the two most interesting debate this season

 

5 hours ago, Bob stark said:

The more fun debate will be what happen once we get Nkunku back. Is it going to be Palmer as 10 or Conor as 10? 

99% here will say Palmer but Conor pressing, running and defending are far superior than Palmer.

Or Nkunku as the 10 ahead of both of them ? 

14 hours ago, Bob stark said:

We had hazard. 

We started brightly but after team found out how we play it was basically waiting for Hazard to stop playing circuit ball and win game for us. 

If we conceded first, it was basically game over. 

 

I prefer to remember the top four finish, the European cup, got the best season returns from Hazard too... Didnt partake in singing f**k sari ball either... So here's a poser for you, would you take what we won under Sarri this season because right now I'd bite the hand off a manager who gets up top four and a European cup. Here's hoping Poch sorts it out. 

1 hour ago, Sexyfootball said:

Or Nkunku as the 10 ahead of both of them ? 

The more I understand Nkunku the more I've realized that if he plays anywhere other than at CAM, it's a waste. He's a great connector of midfield to attack and he finds space so easily. Add his goal scoring contributions and his pressing, it has to be CAM. 

17 hours ago, ozboy said:

The idea that Caicedo can't defend is laughable as you know Gol. He is likely one of the best guys in the league at regaining possession but he's more than that. He can also drive forward a la Kova and as he's shown he knows where the goal is.

Whether through injury or what ever he just hasn't had the minutes to really stamp his influence on this team yet. The first thing is probably to swap him an Enzo. I find it frustrating that most if not all the pieces are there but the picture isn't visible.

Biggest issue we are seeing with Enzo and Caicedo is the international fatigue. 

We will be a lot better with Lavia fit and Lesley accustomed to the Premier League. 

1 hour ago, olderschoolcfc said:

I prefer to remember the top four finish, the European cup, got the best season returns from Hazard too... Didnt partake in singing f**k sari ball either... So here's a poser for you, would you take what we won under Sarri this season because right now I'd bite the hand off a manager who gets up top four and a European cup. Here's hoping Poch sorts it out. 

Sarri implemented a system and it worked, it just took some time to get used to it since prior to him we had the polar opposite view of Conte about how we should be playing. It was never just about Hazard, it was about Sarri and even so many seasons after he's still playing CL football, he is the second best manager we had in the most recent years, after Tuchel.

That squad was worse in comparison to what we have had afterwards.

Edited December 1, 20232 yr by Gol15