Good post Syd. You know I have never been a fan of stats. There are too many variables involved and they don't allow for context.

Personally I haven't noticed the "off balance" issue with Luiz but I agree with the reactive charge.

For me any good defender, let alone a top one, must have

1. Good positioning.

2. Good decision making.

3. Awareness of what is happening around them.

Luiz has none of these. His supporters quote his interception figures as a key strength without considering the wrong positions he is often in when attempting them and also that trying to make an interception in a situation where he is in the wrong positions, with no cover, is entirely the wrong decision to make in the first place. He simply is not a natural defender and I don't believe Conte can make him one.

Still we are stuck with him now and he will play. He will of course have good games as well as bad. But this isn't Ligue1. He will be tested far more severely than he has been the last three years in France and rival managers, players and fans know his history here. They know he has the propensity to have a brain fart and make a mistake on a pretty regular basis.

4 hours ago, just said:

Good post Syd. You know I have never been a fan of stats. There are too many variables involved and they don't allow for context.

Personally I haven't noticed the "off balance" issue with Luiz but I agree with the reactive charge.

For me any good defender, let alone a top one, must have

1. Good positioning.

2. Good decision making.

3. Awareness of what is happening around them.

Luiz has none of these. His supporters quote his interception figures as a key strength without considering the wrong positions he is often in when attempting them and also that trying to make an interception in a situation where he is in the wrong positions, with no cover, is entirely the wrong decision to make in the first place. He simply is not a natural defender and I don't believe Conte can make him one.

Still we are stuck with him now and he will play. He will of course have good games as well as bad. But this isn't Ligue1. He will be tested far more severely than he has been the last three years in France and rival managers, players and fans know his history here. They know he has the propensity to have a brain fart and make a mistake on a pretty regular basis.

Tell you what he does do though, get tight to players unlike Gaz who tends to back off and let forwards get shots off inside the box 

@just

 

I've never been a huge fan of Cahill, he's good but not good enough IMO, although I will say he's started this season better than I've ever seen him, mind you, everybody has improved under Conte.

 

Every time I've seen him play against top drawer strikers, your Agueros, Van Persies etc, I've seen him get schooled. A little bit of movement a little bit of skill, the best strikers can be having a quiet game but all of a sudden at the right time they can beat you in a flash, they can get that extra yard on you and you're done for. I've seen it happen too many times with Cahill. Against PSG last season at SB, Zlatan gave him a lesson he won't forget in a hurry. Zlatan was far too sophisticated for Cahill. Cahill literally had no idea what to do.

 

Watch the first goal that night, the crucial goal, Cahill just lets him go, unforgivably. Zlatan runs into the space and Cahill thinks about following him then decides to hold his position. If he had any natural defensive instinct whatsoever he follows that man. He doesn't allow him space in the box. Sure, Zlatan moves into the space where the right-back should be, but the space is empty and Cahill has to follow him.

 

This is my problem with Cahill. You can see him think, you can see him trying to work it out, trying to remember what the coaching manual says. Before you know it, bang, it's gone. That's what the top strikers do. You can't give them an inch, or a second.

 

I've seen him do this many times, and yet, these won't go down as mistakes, even though they are. It's wretched defending but because it's not an obvious "brainfart" as you put it, in the vein of Luiz, it doesn't get noticed so much and he doesn't get lambasted for it.

 

Luiz is far from perfect, he's far from dependable, he's far from consistent. Cahill is far more consistent, but it's consistency at a level which is a rung below where it needs to be, for me. He doesn't really have brainfarts but he makes defensive errors almost every time I see him play, if I hold him to the very highest standard.

 

I don't want to be too harsh on him, I like his attitude, I regard him as a valuable member of the squad, and of course he's won loads with us, but you compare him very favourably to Luiz and I don't think it's as clear cut as you think.

 

Anyway here's the clip. The first goal ..

 

 

Fair point on that goal davey. We were wide open with no FB. He initially moves to cover the run and then falls back into his set CB position probably thinking that someone will possibly make it across to Ibra, realises they won't and then compounds the problem by trying to rush across and block.

I like Cahill and think he is generally underrated on here but I agree, he isn't the best centre-half I have ever seen. IMO he is a solid, consistent, stereo-typical British centre-back who is also pretty handy when he gets a chance in the oppositions penalty box. He rarely lets us down, but on the other hand he is just as rarely the best defender on the pitch.

The bottom line for me is all players make mistakes, but when defenders make them the consequences are often immediate and painful. And the fact for me is, Cahill makes less of them than Luiz. Considerably less because he thinks defense first whereas Luiz often doesnt even appear to think before he acts.

It's all academic really because now Luiz is here he will be playing. I don't think anything will be different this time around except if he does make the same stupid decisions and goes haring off in all directions I am sure Conte will sack him off pretty quickly. Mourinho was very patient with Luiz when his defensive style was getting slated by the press and the ex-pros. He gave him plenty of chances to change. I don't think Conte will be so tolerant.

In general what has been written about Cahill here has been true; but for that goal he is the right sided Centre Back and the deepest defender and should not under any circumstance allow himself to be dragged out to the left touchline with no cover. That is especially true as Cahill following Ibra would have left an easy pass to Rabiot who would have been one on one with the GK (Cahill even points at him, "why the hell is no-one marking this guy?") either from the initial pass or from a quick square pass by Ibra. Chasing Ibra out to the touchline regardless of anything else is exactly what David Luiz would have done though. If you want that, he's your guy. High risk, win the ball first time or look like a mug. Cahill takes the safe, reactive route, maximum amount of time, longest route to goal, make the opposition do something special, leave yourself with no chance if they do. Neither are top class, but they are very different in how they approach defending. 

You look at the goal, and there are 4 defenders between Ibra and the guy who scores, in a line, and one ball cuts them all out. That is where the defending is unacceptable. The ball goes within a foot of 4 defenders and the keeper and none of them get a touch. Azpilicueta is the one who does especially badly, as he has much more time to react, and lets Rabiot run off the back of him. That is downright bad defending. And although Courtois isn't at fault there, the crab-walk he is doing (and does) leaves him flat on his heels for a ball that it is far from impossible for a better positioned goalkeeper to get too. He should be resetting his body shape and positioning for the potential cross earlier. 

4 hours ago, just said:

I don't think anything will be different this time around except if he does make the same stupid decisions and goes haring off in all directions I am sure Conte will sack him off pretty quickly.

 

Early days but the signs are that players improve under Conte. It will be interesting to see how Luiz does under him. Interesting to say the least.

3 hours ago, Ready Player One said:

In general what has been written about Cahill here has been true; but for that goal he is the right sided Centre Back and the deepest defender and should not under any circumstance allow himself to be dragged out to the left touchline with no cover. That is especially true as Cahill following Ibra would have left an easy pass to Rabiot who would have been one on one with the GK (Cahill even points at him, "why the hell is no-one marking this guy?") either from the initial pass or from a quick square pass by Ibra. Chasing Ibra out to the touchline regardless of anything else is exactly what David Luiz would have done though. If you want that, he's your guy. High risk, win the ball first time or look like a mug. Cahill takes the safe, reactive route, maximum amount of time, longest route to goal, make the opposition do something special, leave yourself with no chance if they do. Neither are top class, but they are very different in how they approach defending. 

You look at the goal, and there are 4 defenders between Ibra and the guy who scores, in a line, and one ball cuts them all out. That is where the defending is unacceptable. The ball goes within a foot of 4 defenders and the keeper and none of them get a touch. Azpilicueta is the one who does especially badly, as he has much more time to react, and lets Rabiot run off the back of him. That is downright bad defending. And although Courtois isn't at fault there, the crab-walk he is doing (and does) leaves him flat on his heels for a ball that it is far from impossible for a better positioned goalkeeper to get too. He should be resetting his body shape and positioning for the potential cross earlier. 

 

Firstly, Cahill does get dragged out, but way too late. That split-second hesitation costs us a goal. Cahill suddenly realises, "Oh sh*t, there's nobody on him, f**k, I better go there". If he had followed him from the get-go there's no goal. Don't give him time to turn let alone pass.

 

Secondly, one ball may cut out 4 defenders, but that's because the guy on the ball has time to get out a deckchair and smoke a cigar. He can pick his pass. There's no pressure.

 

Anyway, that's the way I see it. If you see it differently, fine.

15 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

 

A) Firstly, Cahill does get dragged out, but way too late. That split-second hesitation costs us a goal. Cahill suddenly realises, "Oh sh*t, there's nobody on him, f**k, I better go there". If he had followed him from the get-go there's no goal. Don't give him time to turn let alone pass.

 

B) Secondly, one ball may cut out 4 defenders, but that's because the guy on the ball has time to get out a deckchair and smoke a cigar. He can pick his pass. There's no pressure.

 

Anyway, that's the way I see it. If you see it differently, fine.

 

I think, maybe, the difference of opinion is down to whether you think Cahill is taking Rabiot into consideration or not. If you consider that it is basically a 3 on 2, and the man with the ball is heading away from goal, I think Cahill not chasing him to the touchline makes a bit more sense. 

 

A) Once Azpilicueta is goal-side of Rabiot, Cahill takes up the left-sided centre-back position and gets level with the outside corner of the 6 yard box. It's basically what Terry does all the time. Nothing wrong with any of that. 

 

B) I think the guy who has the time to get out a deckchair is Di Maria. Look at the time he has to pick a pass. Ivanovic and Kenedy are just standing off him, in a position where a simple diagonal pass left or right can (and did) take them completely out of the game. No midfielder is anywhere near him and no midfielder is tracking Rabiot. He has all the time in the world and a choice of which easy pass to make to cut us to ribbons. 

 

I agree with you in general about Cahill, he's bamboozled by elite talent, and he's too reactive. But there is loads wrong with that particular goal, and he's the least of it. 

 

Not that I want to make a long tangent out of it. Just saying what I see. If you don't see it, that's fine. 

should be our 4th choice CB behind Ivanovic! truly awful.

Edited September 16, 20169 yr by pacquiao

10 minutes ago, pacquiao said:

should be our 4th choice CB behind Ivanovic! truly awful.

 

why?

Bit of a weak link. He was always steady and reliable, never world class, but he's looking poor recently.

42 minutes ago, pacquiao said:

should be our 4th choice CB behind Ivanovic! truly awful.

I wouldn't have him behind Ivanovic, but when Terry and Zouma return, i'm not sure i would pick Cahill ahead of either of them. 

I blame him for that first goal, poor positioning and slow to react. For me he has cost us points in two games now, it frustrates me that we don't have the options atm to place him on the bench. 

as predicted, the only reason he has looked solid in the past is because he's always on terry's leash and terry constantly barking on him all game long to get him into the right position especailly in set pieces, remove JT and he's nothing more but a mediocre player

1 minute ago, comtrend said:

I blame him for that first goal, poor positioning and slow to react. For me he has cost us points in two games now, it frustrates me that we don't have the options atm to place him on the bench. 

 

We do have the options. Ivanovic can go central, Dave can switch to the right, and Alonso can play on the left, if the manager wants. It looks like Alonso's been bought more as a squad player however and, considering we were crying out for a LB, it beggars belief. We should have bought someone who can walk straight into that LB spot, and let Dave and Ivanovic fight it out for the right. Ivanovic was ragged in the early exchanges tonight but once again he finds himself almost guaranteed a first-team spot. How many times did Dave get the ball on the left in a promising position only to have to cut back inside on his right?

 

I agree, Cahill at fault more than anyone else for their first, and went totally asleep on their second, plus of course there was the inept clearance. Conte said after the game we have to "feel danger". It could have been a direct reference to Cahill. As I've said before he doesn't do brainfarts, in the vein of Luiz, but he makes more mistakes for me, they're just less eye-catching. Sadly tonight they cost us two goals. If I were an attacker, and I had a choice of facing Cahill or Luiz, I know who I'd rather face.

 

Lastly, they say the best players look better when they don't play, because their absence is keenly felt. Tonight might be a good time for John Terry to ask for a pay rise.

I can tolerate young defenders making mistakes, but Cahill is 30 now and should f**king know better. For all I know he chose Napoli over us but I fear we missed an opportunity to sign Maksimovic this summer.

Hopefully JT is back for Arsenal.

 

Edited September 16, 20169 yr by the special one

48 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

 

 

I agree, Cahill at fault more than anyone else for their first,

He was less to blame than Azpilcueta who had left his position and ended up next to Ivanovic at right back.

 

17 minutes ago, coco said:

He was less to blame than Azpilcueta who had left his position and ended up next to Ivanovic at right back.

For me there's no blame for Cahill, collectively they're all at fault for Liverpool's 2nd.

Against Swansea however we had an opportunity to regroup and push for the win at 1-1, and tonight at 0-1 we were still in the game. Cahill is making life a lot more difficult than it needs to be for the team.

Edited September 16, 20169 yr by the special one

Cahill yet again all over the shop for me. For someone whos gets praised for being a realible defender, he sure is out of position a lot. Played Lovren onside on the first goal and had a shocking clearence for the second. To be fair, defending on the first goal as a whole was a joke, but Cahill has a man marked and then decides to stand next to Luiz (who was already marking someone) instead. Kept giving the ball away all night with poor passes. But to be fair to him, he should never be the one to initiate the play from tye back, Id say thats more on the manager

 

 

The defence won't be sorted till Terry is suitably replaced and so is Ivanovic. The truth is I was never hopeful of Luiz and Cahill being able to keep a clean sheet. 

I think their record together has always been on the poor side. Neither seem to organize and have that commanding nature about them like Terry. Neither are proper leaders in defence. They just don't have the authoritive quality about them.

Edited September 17, 20169 yr by Kante Conte

6 hours ago, Xfaxtor said:

Cahill yet again all over the shop for me. For someone whos gets praised for being a realible defender, he sure is out of position a lot. Played Lovren onside on the first goal and had a shocking clearence for the second. To be fair, defending on the first goal as a whole was a joke, but Cahill has a man marked and then decides to stand next to Luiz (who was already marking someone) instead. Kept giving the ball away all night with poor passes. But to be fair to him, he should never be the one to initiate the play from tye back, Id say thats more on the manager

For me he's still good enough to be starting against the likes of Watford and Burnley home or away and on that basis merits a place in the squad, but as evidenced again last night he just makes too many decisive mistakes to justify selection against top opposition.

Edited September 17, 20169 yr by the special one

7 hours ago, the special one said:

For me he's still good enough to be starting against the likes of Watford and Burnley home or away and on that basis merits a place in the squad, but as evidenced again last night he just makes too many decisive mistakes to justify selection against top opposition.

I think that's pretty accurate, I like Garry he is proper Chelsea, tries his best but he just isn't that talented a defender, JT has flattered him if we are honest, we need to move on 

Technically he is not the best, but in a game against your old fashioned English centre froward type (like a Kevin Davies style player), he does the job and will be more effective than luiz. Not great positioning or tracking mobile players, but he can go toe to toe against big lumps and beat them in the air. It's always useful to have those types of centre backs in the squad

The first goal was down to lack of organisation and leadership ( I know it's a cliche). Unfortunately none of our senior defenders and the GK provide that, which is probably why we got Luiz back. Being one of the senior player, I'd expect Cahill and Ivanovic ( was he captain on the night) to show some leadership quality in dead ball situation, none did that. Second goal was started by Cahill's poor pass, but we had players who could close down Henderson before he lined it up, but none did that. 

I actually think Cahill has the attributes to be a decent CB. H ejust needs to be coached differently.

He is decent enough on the ball, scores goals, has enough pace, wins headers and generally puts in 100%.

The problem is he is ALWAYS 2 yards behind the striker. My god the amount of times the ball gets played into a striker and he is allowed to turn. Defends far too much on the back foot. This has probably come with playing with JT who is the master at that type of defending but the game has changed and you cant have one defender doing that, and another in Luiz who likes to press the ball. 

He needs to be on the front foot, get tighter and see the danger in behind the midfield quicker. This is down to the coach to drill into him (and the whole back 4).