When Sarri did it we had Hazard taking up 2-3 defenders, now we have lost our true world class player we cannot afford round pegs in square holes.
He is being played there because we have built a possession based side, keeper kicks the ball out, defenders pass, Jorginho monitors and supports and feeds the players further forward.
Kante is world class and recovering the ball, less useful when you are a possession based side. The other teams let him have the ball as he doesn't know what to do with it.
The only place he can play is in Jorginho's position yet that might kill our creativity coming out of defence, Kante is reactive not creative. 
 
 

The counter to that is we would be far better defensively if Kante played where Jorginho played (Jorginho offers as much protection to a back four as a sock does to teenage pregnancy) and ours clearly needs that.

It would mean two more creative players could play in front of Kante rather than having a midfield constructed with an excessive focus on stopping other teams.

The idea that Jorginho is some sort of creative force is hugely exaggerated . He is almost portrayed to be like a quarter back.

55 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

For many years we've wondered how the f**k Madrid were so stupid to let us have Makelele in his peak.

Read this thread for the best description of how it happened.

But we could put it another way, how long does his incredible form of three years get him a free pass? There's a fine line between letting a player use up credit in the bank and literally playing them because of how good they were at their absolute best, do we have to now play him unconditionally until he completely falls of a cliff out of gratitude for his first two season's? That type of mindset with the old guard is what led to us having an inconsistent decade in terms of league finishes (compared to the last one) in the first place. I still haven't worked out if Kante has low key started a decline of its more a system issue but if it's the former we absolutely must start preparing for that and not just ignore it only to get caught with our pants down when father time truly hits him.

Also the Maka and Kante comparisons are a bit misguided. Maka was a sitter who sweeped up and distributed, Kante is an all action player who's main attribute is his engine. Think Ashley Cole declining at 30 but Terry maintaining a very high level until his mid 30s, one relied a lot on engine and stamima while the other was more about positioning so always had a larger shelf life at the top.

1 minute ago, loz said:

The idea that Jorginho is some sort of creative force is hugely exaggerated . He is almost portrayed to be like a quarter back.

 

Totally agree about Jorginho. I've never been convinced by him, and I've received a fair amount of stick on here for saying so.

 

If the above stats are correct, 1 win in 9 when Jorginho plays with Kante, including 5 losses. Frank needs to try something new.

1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

For many years we've wondered how the f**k Madrid were so stupid to let us have Makelele in his peak.

Read this thread for the best description of how it happened.

So do you think Kante has played well this season? 

In the past 2 months the only good performance I've seen from him was against Spurs. 

Just now, Davey Baby said:

 

Totally agree about Jorginho. I've never been convinced by him, and I've received a fair amount of stick on here for saying so.

 

If the above stats are correct, 1 win in 9 when Jorginho plays with Kante, including 5 losses. Frank needs to try something new.

Jorghino before the interational break was very creative, some of his passing lately has been pretty sh*t though. But it seems to me that he passes the ball better when the ball is coming to him, rather than him obtaining the ball and looking for his next option. With Kovacic he was doing that, at the moment it's not the case, look at his ball to Tammy against Watford for example, when he obtained the ball he knew where Tammy was and what he was going to do with it, now it's not the case is it. 

 
Totally agree about Jorginho. I've never been convinced by him, and I've received a fair amount of stick on here for saying so.
 
If the above stats are correct, 1 win in 9 when Jorginho plays with Kante, including 5 losses. Frank needs to try something new.

Change your name to Wavey Davey and we may just become lifelong friends

43 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

Those stats are relevant though, in my opinion. Kante is having a wretched season, whatever the reason. He won the PL twice with different clubs, won the FA Cup and won the WC. Those are all relevant stats too. He was playing phenomenally, in a role or a system that suited him. He was intrinsic to those winning stats and I'm afraid he's also intrinsic to our losing stats. I was very upset when I saw him in the starting line-up yesterday and I said so. I just don't think he's improving our chances of winning. Whether that's Frank's fault or his or a combination of both is up for grabs, but right now, when he plays, we just aren't as good, generally speaking, and we're nearly in February, so I think it's a fair enough number of games to make that appraisal.

It's simple to me. When kante played last year with jorginho and kovacic we had Hazard, Alonso, and a striker who could score goals. We looked dire but we always found a way.

Now we just have Tammy. We don't score goals because only Tammy scores goals. And he's not experienced enough to be the sole player scoring.

Additionally Kante also wasn't doing the same job last year as this. Last year his role was closer to what Frank has mount (or last night kovacic) doing this year. Harassing the team in the final third, playing it off. It's an evolved version of what Kante has done for years in a counter attacking set up. Now I don't know what Kantes job is, he just seems to get the ball and run a bit or pass it ten yards, slowly. 

Frank doesn't need Kante in last year's role because Mount and Kovacic do it very well, so we either change the system to suit Kante (in my opinion a mistake) or we change the player. If we had a team with Sancho, Tammy and Loftus Cheek playing week in week out and scoring goals, we'd be challenging at the top (or at least pulling an 80+ point season). 

I'd be very comfortable with a midfield that had Mount, RLC and Jorginho. It wouldnt alter the system at all but it would leave a 28/29 year old who a top team would pay 100m for playing on our bench. Getting a player who can do whay RLC does (hello SMS) would improve our squad and team. 

5 hours ago, enigma said:

Our whole midfield are not goal scorers, maybe barring Mount, but even he is adapting to the league. We need a goal threat from midfield. 

No we don't, look at Liverpool. 

4 minutes ago, loz said:

The counter to that is we would be far better defensively if Kante played where Jorginho played (Jorginho offers as much protection to a back four as a sock does to teenage pregnancy) and ours clearly needs that.

It would mean two more creative players could play in front of Kante rather than having a midfield constructed with an excessive focus on stopping other teams.

The idea that Jorginho is some sort of creative force is hugely exaggerated . He is almost portrayed to be like a quarter back.

That would be better to play him in front of the back four though whether he would be better I'm less sure.

Jorginho barks instructions at players like last week telling Barkley to get further up the pitch, I don't see Kante doing that.

I don't see Kante as a world class midfielder, he was first class ball-recycler yet there are several attributes to being a world class midfielder player he has one. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Actually we haven't lost 1 without Kante. He came on in the United game, but yes he wasn't a starter. 

Without Kante we have 7 wins and 1 draw. 

With Kante we have 8 losses, 3 draws and 5 wins. That's a pretty shocking stat, one that some people keep ignoring.

Cheers - I've clearly got some data out of line in my excel file that I track our games in ... I'll go back and correct it when I have the time 🙂

2 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

 

And football really, really is as simple as that.

FFS, I despair a lot these days.

I know correlation isn't necessarily causation. But you have to stop and think about it for a moment. Kepa's stats are atrocious, and even though I thought he wasn't at fault for the two goals, someone showed a picture of his positioning for the 2nd and it turns out he was at fault. The stats are clearly showing something, he has the worst in the league so far, it's too much of a coincidence to happen every game. 

Focusing on stats with Kante is certainly beyond the point however, I've pointed out numerous times as have many that the pivot of him and Jorginho just doesn't work, especially when we are on the front foot. But Kante himself isn't playing well, in this new position of his that pushes him to playing as a part time shadow striker. I've always been a critic of Kante playing more forward, as I was last season. His defensive stats in the last two seasons have been shocking compared to the ones under Conte. He isn't that good in attack, people see the key passing stat and think otherwise, but the reality is, he's never been that good going forward. If want to rely on Kante as an attacking player, we may as well go get someone else. I remember the thorough debates I had last year about “Is he a box to box player, or is he an attacking midfielder?”, and that debate has long since settled this season, it’s certainly not box to box any more even though we still get some good recovery runs from Kante.

Accommodating Kante this season has been our downfall, we had a good setup, and we went backwards and prolonged a lot of the problems from last season, we brought them straight back in. And Loz does have a point about Sarri getting criticism for it and Frank isn't, but I think now it's a case of Kante's performance catching up with him, so people are finally starting to criticise him. 

Edited January 22, 20206 yr by Slojo

3 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Cheers - I've clearly got some data out of line in my excel file that I track our games in ... I'll go back and correct it when I have the time 🙂

Data isn't everything though, I've noticed you've posted stats of Kante's attacking output while neglecting his through balls, he's achieved 0 this season. The only reason why Kante's attacking stats have improved is because he's playing higher up the pitch, it's obvious. But his defensive stats have severely declined from under Conte and at Leicester. You have to stop and analyse what Kante is doing, and last game was perfect for it. I might go download the game and create some gifs to show people what I mean, like I did with Jorginho against Arsenal last year when I had some criticism of his defending, Some of his distribution in the first half was piss poor, he kept slowing the play down whenever the ball came to him, the stats won't show that. The sad reality is, his distribution is very overrated, he's very behind Jorginho and Kovacic when it comes to retention and distribution skills, the possession stats will say otherwise, but they don't show you how long it takes to play a ball and control it. 

4 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Accommodating Kante this season has been our downfall, we had a good setup, and we went backwards and prolonged a lot of the problems from last season, we brought them straight back in. And Loz does have a point about Sarri getting criticism for it and Frank isn't, but I think now it's a case of Kante's performance catching up with him, so people are finally starting to criticise him. 

Sarri got away with it because Hazard delivered, we don't have Hazard or anyone like him so the rest of the team needs to step up and when something is not working it becomes obvious.

 

11 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Data isn't everything though, I've noticed you've posted stats of Kante's attacking output while neglecting his through balls, he's achieved 0 this season. The only reason why Kante's attacking stats have improved is because he's playing higher up the pitch, it's obvious. But his defensive stats have severely declined from under Conte and at Leicester. You have to stop and analyse what Kante is doing, and last game was perfect for it. I might go download the game and create some gifs to show people what I mean, like I did with Jorginho against Arsenal last year when I had some criticism of his defending, Some of his distribution in the first half was piss poor, he kept slowing the play down whenever the ball came to him, the stats won't show that. The sad reality is, his distribution is very overrated, he's very behind Jorginho and Kovacic when it comes to retention and distribution skills, the possession stats will say otherwise, but they don't show you how long it takes to play a ball and control it. 

That wasn't me ... I just commented on it ... that he's improved from mediocre to still mediocre but marginly less mediocre 🙂 I think gol15 posted it originally ...

2 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

For many years we've wondered how the f**k Madrid were so stupid to let us have Makelele in his peak.

Read this thread for the best description of how it happened.

If Frank were to sell him it would be a suicidal move and he would be sacked very fast after. When Makelele was gone the Galacticos era was over.

13 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

If Frank were to sell him it would be a suicidal move and he would be sacked very fast after. When Makelele was gone the Galacticos era was over.

Makalele and Kante are completely different players... Argo already nailed this, Maka was far better at distribution, Kante is regarded for his engine. If you want to compare him, you're better off comparing him to Essien. 

30 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

That wasn't me ... I just commented on it ... that he's improved from mediocre to still mediocre but marginly less mediocre 🙂 I think gol15 posted it originally ...

Stats prove Kante is better offensivly this season in comparison to last. The fact that other players never step up isn't Kante's fault, that much is clear by now.

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

Without Kante we have 7 wins and 1 draw. 

With Kante we have 8 losses, 3 draws and 5 wins. That's a pretty shocking stat, one that some people keep ignoring. 

Come on @Slojo, you're better than that.  That is incredibly naive and simplistic.  That's a total of 24 matches against different opposition, in different conditions, at different stages of the season and of individual fitness levels with different players in our team as well.

The only way that statistic can ever be anything more than a rhetorical stick to beat home a specific point of view is if all 24 matches were played against exactly the same opposition, in exactly the same conditions, with all of our team being exactly the same and all being at exactly the same level of fitness, tiredness and concentration, with ALL other variables being identical.

Otherwise you  truly do get down to Saturn was rising in Aquarius, the hanged man card and the four of cups together mean ill will befall your rhododendrons and the entrails  of a toad  looking like Keith Chegwin's mother mean you will inherit a valuable antique Davenport in the near future, and all of those things directly affect the outcome of the millions of physical interactions between players, ball, grass, officials, atmosphere and amount of Singha drunk in exactly the same way every single time.

Football is a funny old game, Saint, and every match is unique and unpredictable.  That's one of the reasons I never get involved  in the "predict the score,  predict the team" threads in here.  That and the fact that I'm not a sad f**ker and have a life.

 

PS, That's not just aimed at you @Slojo, BTW, but all the people quoting similar "stats" as being meaningful

Edited January 22, 20206 yr by yorkleyblue

1 hour ago, Strider6003 said:

That would be better to play him in front of the back four though whether he would be better I'm less sure.

Jorginho barks instructions at players like last week telling Barkley to get further up the pitch, I don't see Kante doing that.

I don't see Kante as a world class midfielder, he was first class ball-recycler yet there are several attributes to being a world class midfielder player he has one. 

 

 

Jorginho was great last game, him and CHO showed up. Fact is Jorginho was among our best performers in the last games against Arsenal, Kante never played as a deep lying playmaker, he can't do what Jorginho has been doing.

9 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

Come on @Slojo, you're better than that.  That is incredibly naive and simplistic.  That's a total of 24 matches against different opposition, in different conditions, at different stages of the season and of individual fitness levels with different players in our team as well.

The only way that statistic can ever be anything more than a rhetorical stick to beat home a specific point of view is if all 24 matches were played against exactly the same opposition, in exactly the same conditions, with all of our team being exactly the same and all being at exactly the same level of fitness, tiredness and concentration, with ALL other variables being identical.

Otherwise you  truly do get down to Saturn was rising in Aquarius, the hanged man card and the four of cups together mean ill will befall your rhododendrons and the entrails  of a toad  looking like Keith Chegwin's mother mean you will inherit a valuable antique Davenport in the near future, and all of those things directly affect the outcome of the millions of physical interactions between players, ball, grass, officials, atmosphere and amount of Singha drunk in exactly the same way every single time.

Football is a funny old game, Saint, and every match is unique and unpredictable.  That's one of the reasons I never get involved  in the "predict the score,  predict the team" threads in here.  That and the fact that I'm not a sad f**ker and have a life.

 

PS, That's not just aimed at you @Slojo, BTW, but all the people quoting similar "stats" as being meaningful

No I know, obviously the stats for the United and Liverpool games are pointless, lacking fitness and the game against United was already set. I'm just saying that on paper the stats look worse, that doesn't tell the full story of course. December imo is a good metric of the evaluation of Kante's performances, he had a good string of games with Jorginho and it didn't work in any game when they both played together. You can't disregard those stats when they're very telling that the Jorginho/Kante partnership doesn't work, I don't even think we've won one game with those two playing together in the pivot, whereas as soon as we play Burnley with Barkley and Jorginho in the middle we win by 3-0. 

I'm not saying stats are the be all end all, far from it, but there's a strong correlation to us losing whenever Kante-Jorginho play together, there's even more of a correlation when you look at the performances and it's always the same, dominating possession, creating minimum chances and getting hit on the counter and lose. 

27 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

That's one of the reasons I never get involved  in the "predict the score,  predict the team" threads in here.  That and the fact that I'm not a sad f**ker and have a life.

I'm currently leading in the predictions thread and now I know why that is

30 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

 

The only way that statistic can ever be anything more than a rhetorical stick to beat home a specific point of view is if all 24 matches were played against exactly the same opposition, in exactly the same conditions, with all of our team being exactly the same and all being at exactly the same level of fitness, tiredness and concentration, with ALL other variables being identical.

Totally agree on that. I think the word is variables, too many variables between the stats for them to hold any worth.

34 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

That's one of the reasons I never get involved  in the "predict the score,  predict the team" threads in here.  That and the fact that I'm not a sad f**ker and have a life.

No prize for you then.

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

No we don't, look at Liverpool. 

Well if we had mane and salah either side of the striker, our midfield would be fine. But we don't. 

3 minutes ago, Amputechture said:

I'm currently leading in the predictions thread and now I know why that is

I'm not even close to the top which is even worse lol