9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Kante had his best scoring season in his career and we finished 3rd in the league.

Trouble is ... he scored FIVE goals ... i.e. the best scoring season of his career is still inferior to that of defenders like John Terry and Gary Cahill. The midfielder who is playing farthest up the pitch and being tasked with getting into the box simply has to do better than that ...

It's a strange situation, but we actually do better without our world class player in the starting eleven in the PL this season ...

 

So clearly he upsets the dynamic of the team, even if Lampard is convinced that individually he has great games ...

Edited January 19, 20206 yr by Sexyfootball

1 hour ago, Sexyfootball said:

Trouble is ... he scored FIVE goals ... i.e. the best scoring season of his career is still inferior to that of defenders like John Terry and Gary Cahill. The midfielder who is playing farthest up the pitch and being tasked with getting into the box simply has to do better than that ...

Well if you still think he can't score lets compare him to other midfielders and not CBs from the time we could actually score from corners...

He has 3 goals so far, and he had an injury. Mount is the most offensive midfielder, Kante is a box to box midfielder and Mount has 2 more goals than Kante, Jorginho only scores from penalties, Barkley has 2 goals from cup games, Kovacic has 1 league goal and 1 CL goal.

So part from Mount, nobody scored more goals from open play than Kante this season.

6 hours ago, Gol15 said:

We obvously need to sell all of them and play the youth. We don't need world class players what did they ever did for us who cares about winning big games anyway...

No one is saying play the youth, but there is obviously an issue with our set of midfielders. We are the only club in the league without a DM, that in itself is an issue.

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

In almost every page there are the same people that said less than a year ago that Kante "doesn't fit in our system" and you don't need to scroll back a page to find one more chat about how someone wouldn't mind selling Kante for 100m. Spear me this talk, it's only strawmanning and nothing else. Kante does his roll well, he's a 7.0 midfielder for us any day of the week. Had Kante scored today from a dead angle everyone would just wait for the next game to bash him, but the keeper saved his shot it's that simple. 

It's not his fault that NOBODY else is running into space properly and that nobody that is actually expected to score, doesn't actually score. He's trying to do it all for the team and somehow that's a problem?
Even if Kante had 5 more interceptions and what not this game, it still doesn't change anything since nobody from our attack showed up, we had 70% possession and even some counter attack, how is Kante responsible that others are not doing their roles?
He's actually going forward since nobody else is doing it, Mount has had quiet games for a while now and he keeps starting but somehow Kante is the problem and Frank's untouchable? All false accusations, yet similar to last season when people were moaning about how Sarri plays Kante in a bad way, how did that turn out btw? Ah yes Kante had his best scoring season in his career and we finished 3rd in the league. 

Like I said, Kante was out best performing midfielder today, he lost Hazard and it's showing he is the only world class player in the squad now and it's not fair to constantly complain about him when he's doing his role just fine.
 

Frankie after the game:

Do you feel like you want to play two up front at all?

“Sometimes, if the game feels that way. In that case it would have meant bringing off maybe N’Golo Kante, who was outstanding all game..."

 

Isn’t that a discipline issue though? I am not in any way suggesting we should sell him but he has to show restraint or be instructed to be more disciplined in his positioning. First 2 mins into the game and Kante was upfield trying to win the ball next to Newcastle’s corner flag and I thought to myself, “here we go again”. 
Personally not a fan of Mount at all, and I am not buying the argument of him being off his game, he is just not creative enough. We were essentially playing a deep lying playmaker and 2 midfielders who excel in pressing further upfield, against a Newcastle team that were sat deep and didn’t want the ball.

Still think Sarri played him further upfield to mask his on-ball frailties; if your philosophy is built on building and passing from the back, the last person you want deeper is Kante. He is undoubtedly a world class player in the right system, but ever successful team he has played in as always been a counter attacking unit. Leicester, France and with us under Conte are all testament to that.

14 minutes ago, ducavis said:

No one is saying play the youth, but there is obviously an issue with our set of midfielders. We are the only club in the league without a DM, that in itself is an issue.

Why is there an issue with the midfield when Frank had clearly said multiple times throughout this season that the team lacks finishing the chances and that we are not good enough in attack?

You really believe that a DM would automatically make Tammy score 10 more goals, Willian would make more assists, Mount would dominate every game, Kepa would save 50% more shots, defense would clear out the opposition set pieces at a much higher rate...A DM would make everyone else so much better, the rest of the squad is very dependent of and missing, a Bakayoko, ok.

51 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Why is there an issue with the midfield when Frank had clearly said multiple times throughout this season that the team lacks finishing the chances and that we are not good enough in attack?

You really believe that a DM would automatically make Tammy score 10 more goals, Willian would make more assists, Mount would dominate every game, Kepa would save 50% more shots, defense would clear out the opposition set pieces at a much higher rate...A DM would make everyone else so much better, the rest of the squad is very dependent of and missing, a Bakayoko, ok.

I just think there's no need for kante in a game against a team that sits deep. We don't need a DM in those games but an AM. An extra player that the opposition has to worry about. Am extra player who can defend corners. 

And yes I would sell him for 100m because I think with that money we can get someone who can win us games against all 20 teams, not just 5. But at the moment we won get 60m for him so it's pointless. 

FL dropped barkley after an impressive win against Burnley. The first time we've dominated and score goals in ages. And we lost. That's the major talking point for me. Kante is untouchable, when he absolutely shouldn't be. The moment I saw the team sheet I knew we would be in trouble. 

Edited January 19, 20206 yr by bisright1

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Why is there an issue with the midfield when Frank had clearly said multiple times throughout this season that the team lacks finishing the chances and that we are not good enough in attack?

You really believe that a DM would automatically make Tammy score 10 more goals, Willian would make more assists, Mount would dominate every game, Kepa would save 50% more shots, defense would clear out the opposition set pieces at a much higher rate...A DM would make everyone else so much better, the rest of the squad is very dependent of and missing, a Bakayoko, ok.

A DM would free up Kante to play a box to box role which he is very good at, getting caught up further up the pitch won’t be an issue.  When we have the ball a DM will drop back almost to a position between the two central defenders, with the two full-backs, tucking into deep-lying midfield positions. A DM would also fill in for your fullbacks when they are caught further up the field, and offer protection for your whole defensive line. Leicester and the work Ndidi does for them is a testament to this. It is no coincidence their form has dropped now he is injured. City also with either Fernandinho/Rodri protecting their back line have the luxury of playing both De Bruyne and Silva in a free no 8 role.

Presently we can’t leave Jorginho alone at the base of our midfield, we will get punished. You can’t also play Kante a B2B next to him, because more often than not he will be pressing further upfield. This is why I have suggested long term we might need to sacrifice one of them (Jorginho/Kante) or one will have to ride the bench. You might get away with it in some games but over a season we will suffer playing both together. 

Having done some stats on Kante further up the chain, I started looking at the other midfielders, plus the midfield combinations/selections made

The problem is actually not picking Kante per se, it's picking Kante AND Jorginho, which just doesn't work ... Frank needs to pick one or the other (or maybe neither 🙂 ), not both ...

This is how it stacks up so far :

We gain the highest % of points per game with Barkley in the midfield, followed by Mount (Mount's games on the wing excluded from above data).

And our record when both Kante and Jorginho play is awful ... but both of them are hugely improved without each other (Kante is actually 80% from 5 games without Jorginho, and Jorginho is 73% from 10 without Kante). We haven't played a game in which neither feature as starters.

Interesting that we don't have a great record when Kovacic and Jorginho are both selected, contrary to a  few perceptions of how well that was working ...  our record is actually better when Kovacic is playing with Kante.

 

I think the main inference from all of this is that Lampard is simply not picking the right midfield often enough, and is picking the wrong one too often   🙂

 

For a 4-3-3, or 4-2-3-1, there are 10 ways to pick 3 midfielders from the 5 fit midfielders in the squad (one plays centrally as AM in the 3 of the 4-2-3-1)

 

Combinations Frank hasn't tried yet :

Kante/Kovacic/Barkley

Kovacic/Barkley/Mount

Kante/Barkley/Mount

Jorginho/Kante/Barkley

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 20206 yr by Sexyfootball

11 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Kante was our best midfielder today, facts. Keep dreaming how he's the problem now doesn't matter the slightest.

9 hours ago, loz said:

Jorginho is a luxury player in the English league. He is much better suited to the Italian league where he is allowed space and time, or the French league which lacks competitiveness. He can be a nice player to watch, on occasion, but he offers no protection to a defence, and ours needs it, and whilst he can play the occasional attractive pass, his capacity as a playmaker is exaggerated. We will never compete domestically if Jorginho plays week in week out.

Without Jorginho where does the distribution come from against Newcastle? Kante was playing further up the pitch than Mount, Jorginho was isolated. It's no coincidence that as soon as Barkley came on Jorginho was playing much better. If you ask me, at this rate I would rather play Kante in the advanced role than Mount, because Mount has been off the boil for a while now. But Jorginho is not to blame for this game, nor is he a luxury player. He was completely isolated with no other choice but to pass it sideways and even when he did manage to get it upfield, everyone was man marked, nobody was coming back for the one-two until Barkley came on, Newcastle had us pegged from the start and it was so predictable. I said this before the game even started, it's that easy to predict. 

If Jorginho plays against the low block teams, he needs to play next to either Barkley or Kovacic, it's as simple as that, and our best performances and wins this season have come from Jorginho playing next to Kovacic. You know the bloke who's had the worlds longest purple patch? 

Edited January 19, 20206 yr by Slojo

The balance isn’t right. We have a few options:

Play Kante in his old role ala Fernandinho & Fabinho and buy someone else to put next to him that can create but also has a bit about them to defend when needs be. I was very against this argument last season but the more I watch now the more it makes sense. City literally just won two pl’s on the trot with a cdm to break up the play in front of the defence.

Play Jorginho with Kovacic. It worked at the start of the season. We could try it again. Could we win trophies in the long run with this combo?

Sell Kante and buy someone to play next to Jorginho that is an all rounder for £100m. SMS springs to mind. (Funnily enough just read his agent is Mateja Kezman). Must be able to attack and defend.

Play Kovacic with a new signing. This won’t happen.

3 minutes ago, rtwelch said:

The balance isn’t right. We have a few options:

Play Kante in his old role ala Fernandinho & Fabinho and buy someone else to put next to him that can create but also has a bit about them to defend when needs be. I was very against this argument last season but the more I watch now the more it makes sense. City literally just won two pl’s on the trot with a cdm to break up the play in front of the defence.

Play Jorginho with Kovacic. It worked at the start of the season. We could try it again. Could we win trophies in the long run with this combo?

Sell Kante and buy someone to play next to Jorginho that is an all rounder for £100m. SMS springs to mind. (Funnily enough just read his agent is Mateja Kezman). Must be able to attack and defend.

Play Kovacic with a new signing. This won’t happen.

I think SMS would be a bad idea. The fact Kezman is his agent is one of several red flags.

6 minutes ago, Dean said:

I think SMS would be a bad idea. The fact Kezman is his agent is one of several red flags.

Kezman is an agent now? 

9 minutes ago, Valerie said:

Kezman is an agent now? 

Tbf I think he was an agent when he played for us, working undercover for Man United. 

27 minutes ago, Valerie said:

Kezman is an agent now? 

Yes! What does it say about SMS’ judgment?

43 minutes ago, Dean said:

Yes! What does it say about SMS’ judgment?

I can certainly see the advantage of being able to tell your agent to go f**k himself in your own language ... 🙂

Honestly think the pivot isnt even the issue. 

Its the quality of the 4 in front. 

We didnt struggle to create yesterday, we got into loads of good positions, but the final ball or finish was shocking. 

I do agree that maybe kante isnt really needed in these type of games, but it isnt the biggest factor as to why we are striggling to score goals. 

Every team bar liverpool, city, and leicester have been woefully inconsistant. Leicester are looking like having a bit of a wobble now aswell. 

If we want to be challenging city and liverpool, we need to have front players, that would have a chance of getting in their line ups. None of our 4 would get close to that at the moment. 

We move the ball well enough to get into crossing and cut back positions, or to get a player running at their back 4 with options, buy until we have forward players that make the right pass at the right time, and finish consistantly, we will be an inconsistant side.

37 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

I can certainly see the advantage of being able to tell your agent to go f**k himself in your own language ... 🙂

Good point. I must admit I hadn’t considered that angle

2 hours ago, rtwelch said:

The balance isn’t right. We have a few options:

Play Kante in his old role ala Fernandinho & Fabinho and buy someone else to put next to him that can create but also has a bit about them to defend when needs be. I was very against this argument last season but the more I watch now the more it makes sense. City literally just won two pl’s on the trot with a cdm to break up the play in front of the defence.

Play Jorginho with Kovacic. It worked at the start of the season. We could try it again. Could we win trophies in the long run with this combo?

Sell Kante and buy someone to play next to Jorginho that is an all rounder for £100m. SMS springs to mind. (Funnily enough just read his agent is Mateja Kezman). Must be able to attack and defend.

Play Kovacic with a new signing. This won’t happen.

We don't even know what is our best formation and yet somehow Kante is to be blamed when our attack doesn't show up. The midfield has no issues we just had 70% possession in an away game.

Another post saying that the club should sell Kante because the attack doesn't know how to score goals, just great.

Like I said in the transfer threads, Sergej was the best midfielder in Serie A last season, he won the player of the month award just recently and Lazio is currently on a 10-11 game winning streak which means they are only 3 points behind Juventus, they won't sell SMS for less than 180m euros as they basically see him as a better player than Pogba, there is little to no chance of getting that player.

The best is to just sell Kante and Jorginho for laughs and then maybe some of you will realise how it really looks without them...what a joke.

12 hours ago, bisright1 said:

I just think there's no need for kante in a game against a team that sits deep. We don't need a DM in those games but an AM. An extra player that the opposition has to worry about. Am extra player who can defend corners. 

And yes I would sell him for 100m because I think with that money we can get someone who can win us games against all 20 teams, not just 5. But at the moment we won get 60m for him so it's pointless. 

FL dropped barkley after an impressive win against Burnley. The first time we've dominated and score goals in ages. And we lost. That's the major talking point for me. Kante is untouchable, when he absolutely shouldn't be. The moment I saw the team sheet I knew we would be in trouble. 

Another post saying we should sell Kante, keep going I wonder when will be the next time someone tells me how nobody wants to sell him...

It's now Kantes fault that our attack didn't show up. He does his role well. Nobody else from the midfield is actually having a mindblowing season, Mount is the untouchable not Kante.

11 hours ago, ducavis said:

A DM would free up Kante to play a box to box role which he is very good at, getting caught up further up the pitch won’t be an issue.  When we have the ball a DM will drop back almost to a position between the two central defenders, with the two full-backs, tucking into deep-lying midfield positions. A DM would also fill in for your fullbacks when they are caught further up the field, and offer protection for your whole defensive line. Leicester and the work Ndidi does for them is a testament to this. It is no coincidence their form has dropped now he is injured. City also with either Fernandinho/Rodri protecting their back line have the luxury of playing both De Bruyne and Silva in a free no 8 role.

Presently we can’t leave Jorginho alone at the base of our midfield, we will get punished. You can’t also play Kante a B2B next to him, because more often than not he will be pressing further upfield. This is why I have suggested long term we might need to sacrifice one of them (Jorginho/Kante) or one will have to ride the bench. You might get away with it in some games but over a season we will suffer playing both together. 

What if we as a team just stop pressing so high with Kante instead of selling him? I agree that Kante pressing so high is a bad move, our midfield broke apart against any team as soon as the ball skipped the midfield and went to the opposition striker, nobody could stop that since Kante was left out too high up the pitch and Jorginho or Kovacic getting a yellow card was basically a must.

If we are to sell a player, it should be Jorginho/Kovacic. I don't know who would replace them but selling Kante is like shooting yourself in the foot. It's much easier to find a player that fits with Kante than selling Kante and searching for a great player instead, Kante does a lot of work that whoever is with him doesn't need to worry so much about a lot of things.

14 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

What if we as a team just stop pressing so high with Kante instead of selling him? I agree that Kante pressing so high is a bad move, our midfield broke apart against any team as soon as the ball skipped the midfield and went to the opposition striker, nobody could stop that since Kante was left out too high up the pitch and Jorginho or Kovacic getting a yellow card was basically a must.

If we are to sell a player, it should be Jorginho/Kovacic. I don't know who would replace them but selling Kante is like shooting yourself in the foot. It's much easier to find a player that fits with Kante than selling Kante and searching for a great player instead, Kante does a lot of work that whoever is with him doesn't need to worry so much about a lot of things.

It's a fair point. For me Kante isn't the guy you want pressing high. He is the guy you want mopping up behind if the press is beaten. That is what made him PFA player of the year, world cup and multiple PL winner. 

The truth is he is playing where he is to try and fit Jorginho in who requires the whole midfield to be built around him to work. Yes he is good with the ball but at some stage we will have to face facts that when you press high in the PL you can't have a defensive midfielder who is slow behind them. It just doesn't work. I like Jorginho as a player same as I liked Cesc but it's very hard to fit in a slow midfielder if you're going to press as we do. 

Far better in my view to play Kante in his role and let Kovacic and Mount and RLC and perhaps even a new midfielder do the pressing and the creativity. 

Against a low block team we dont need him AND Jorginho. 

When a team only wants to counter us why do we need two midfielders who offer nothing going forward? It amazes me Frank thinks this is a good plan.

He played in a midfield when he had Maka or Essien playing the Maka role and then him and Ballack or Tiago or Essien going forward. That worked brilliantly.

Maka would rarely spray 50 yard balls. He got it and gave it simple. Kante can do that. WTF do we not use just Kante as our Maka now?

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Against a low block team we dont need him AND Jorginho. 

When a team only wants to counter us why do we need two midfielders who offer nothing going forward? It amazes me Frank thinks this is a good plan.

He played in a midfield when he had Maka or Essien playing the Maka role and then him and Ballack or Tiago or Essien going forward. That worked brilliantly.

Maka would rarely spray 50 yard balls. He got it and gave it simple. Kante can do that. WTF do we not use just Kante as our Maka now?

SFL is veering towards Tinkerman MkII