N'golo Kante - We are not worthy!

[Gol15]

16 minutes ago, Dean said:

While i agree Kovacic’s form has dipped somewhat recently, it’s premature and unfair to dismiss what he’s done this season as a ‘purple patch’. It’s hard to maintain that form over the course of a season and all players are susceptible to dips in form. He’s only 25. Why not wait and see? I agree that the talk of Kante’s demise is greatly exaggerated, but it’s perfectly possible to make that argument without laying into Kovacic and Jorginho. It’s not a zero sum thing. While on balance Kante may be our best player, they all offer different things depending on a number of factors. 

Wasn't Kovacic the best midfielder in the whole league? With being "only 25"?

Didn't feel his absence at all, Jorginho can enable both Barkley and Mount equally well 

[Dean]

My take on Kante fwiw is this:

- he hasn’t been at his best but not by as much as some think. class, as they say, is permanent, and I have little doubt he will recover to his best.

- he’s world class.

- he’s our best player on balance, but not by as much of a distance as some think.

-  it’s not crazy to consider selling him once he gets back to his best. I know it seems almost sacrilegious but I think that’s irrational given the realities of top-end professional football. What if there was another world class player that suited our current setup/needs better?

 

[Dean]

14 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Wasn't Kovacic the best midfielder in the whole league? With being "only 25"?

Didn't feel his absence at all, Jorginho can enable both Barkley and Mount equally well 

I just don’t have the required mental apparatus to respond to this.

[Slojo]

8 minutes ago, Dean said:

I just don’t have the required mental apparatus to respond to this.

Your IQ will only drop 20 points, I wouldn't bother mate. 

[Gol15]

50 minutes ago, Dean said:

I just don’t have the required mental apparatus to respond to this.

As expected. How time itself proves you wrong when you ignore facts, it's just funny isn't it? I actually wasn't sure if it was you that claimed that Kovacic was the best midfielder in the league, but this turned out great, for me at least 😄

[Ukraine Bolt]

8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

As expected. How time itself proves you wrong when you ignore facts, it's just funny isn't it? I actually wasn't sure if it was you that claimed that Kovacic was the best midfielder in the league, but this turned out great, for me at least 😄

A Chelsea player having a dip in form is good for you? Proper weird bloke you are.

[Gol15]

8 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

A Chelsea player having a dip in form is good for you? Proper weird bloke you are.

The guy I quoted is actually kicking down Kante while he's injured and supporting the negative opinions about him, only because he felt hurt that someone else said that Kovacic isn't that great. Talk about what's a weird bloke huh? I was almost buchered for not agreeing with that same person when he stated that Kovacic is the best midfielder in the league, what happens now when we actually won a home game with my favorite player playing and his not? I have no reason to not continue supporting Jorginho and Kante, both players that were targeted by this same individual.

[Ukraine Bolt]

Just now, Gol15 said:

The guy I quoted is actually kicking down Kante while he's injured and supporting the negative opinions about him, only because he felt hurt that someone else said that Kovacic isn't that great. Talk about what's a weird bloke huh? I was almost buchered for not agreeing with that same person when he stated that Kovacic is the best midfielder in the league, what happens now when we actually won a home game with my favorite player playing and his not? I have no reason to not continue supporting Jorginho and Kante, both players that were targeted by this same individual.

He never targeted them, he just pointed out they weren't playing well. 

From August til about November Kovacic was one of the best CM's in the league. 

[Gol15]

20 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

He never targeted them, he just pointed out they weren't playing well. 

From August til about November Kovacic was one of the best CM's in the league. 

I remember people bashin Jorginho ever since he came here. And now Kante. But out of nowhere, at best case scenario comes an appaling display of double-standards when it comes to Kovacic. 

Saying that he was among the best CM's in the league, is one thing, but the statement was clearly that he was THE best midfielder in the league, even De Bruyne was out of the question for that.

So why is it so hard to be this passionate about Jorginho, our vice-captain, that was the top passer last season and that's 5/5 or 6/6 depending if you count all games from the penalty spot this season? When we won at home last time when he didn't play, against Palace, people were actually saying that he isn't needed, I guess then it's when I got really involved in all this.

Now when Kante and Kovacic didn't play, and we won 3:nil very easy, and yet someone is still saying how Jorginho shouldn't play the next game and another how we "won again without Kante"...f**k off with the double standards, that's what I say.

[Vagabond]

12 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I remember people bashin Jorginho ever since he came here. And now Kante. But out of nowhere, at best case scenario comes an appaling display of double-standards when it comes to Kovacic. 

Saying that he was among the best CM's in the league, is one thing, but the statement was clearly that he was THE best midfielder in the league, even De Bruyne was out of the question for that.

So why is it so hard to be this passionate about Jorginho, our vice-captain, that was the top passer last season and that's 5/5 or 6/6 depending if you count all games from the penalty spot this season? When we won at home last time when he didn't play, against Palace, people were actually saying that he isn't needed, I guess then it's when I got really involved in all this.

Now when Kante and Kovacic didn't play, and we won 3:nil very easy, and yet someone is still saying how Jorginho shouldn't play the next game and another how we "won again without Kante"...f**k off with the double standards, that's what I say.

Really? Half this forum was bashing Kovacic last season and didn't want to sign him, despite a transfer ban and RLC/Kanté being injured. Just check his thread, everything is still there. Even the text underlining the whole "Chelsea Match Chat"-forum was something alone the line that Kovacic makes people miss Bakayoko iirc. How is that "an appaling display of double-standards"? Fact is, it's a bit of banter and reasonable critique most of the time. You're simply far too thin-skinned when it's about Jorginho, because you think he's better than he actually is.

As I have said many times since the start of this season; our midfield lineup was never the reason for dropping points. It's our set pieces, our defence and our inconsistency in attack that costs us. Against Burnley we had a can opener with the penalty and some support from VAR, which made things a lot easier. I'll take it of course, but that's not going to happen every game. Acting like this was somehow a midfield masterclass as opposed to games when Jorgi was missing is a bit silly.

[Gol15]

7 hours ago, Vagabond said:

Really? Half this forum was bashing Kovacic last season and didn't want to sign him, despite a transfer ban and RLC/Kanté being injured. Just check his thread, everything is still there. Even the text underlining the whole "Chelsea Match Chat"-forum was something alone the line that Kovacic makes people miss Bakayoko iirc. How is that "an appaling display of double-standards"? Fact is, it's a bit of banter and reasonable critique most of the time. You're simply far too thin-skinned when it's about Jorginho, because you think he's better than he actually is.

As I have said many times since the start of this season; our midfield lineup was never the reason for dropping points. It's our set pieces, our defence and our inconsistency in attack that costs us. Against Burnley we had a can opener with the penalty and some support from VAR, which made things a lot easier. I'll take it of course, but that's not going to happen every game. Acting like this was somehow a midfield masterclass as opposed to games when Jorgi was missing is a bit silly.

I will admit that I get baited too easy when it comes to Jorginho but how good he is according to me and if that is me making him look better than he actually is, that's debatable.

What you're actually saying here is that people just move from player to player and bash accordingly to how poorly any player is at any given moment, meaning that it's always justified and most of the time reasonable? I simply can't buy that, Chelsea fans in general have a reputation for un-reasonable critique towards their players, managers you name it. 

Last season Kovacic was average, I didn't bash him, in fact I openly stated that he is very good with the ball but lacks a speciality, or pace and that because of all that nobody was able to find the best position for him in his prior clubs, nobody got the best out of him, I will find my own first quotes about him at the end of this... As it happens Frankie found a sweet spot for him and he improved very much, but he isn't actually winning us games, he isn't De Bruyne. You will not see me talking about our players the way many talk about Kante and Jorginho these days or have been doing it for the past 11 months.

Ask yourself if people were this harsh to Kovacic last season, as people have been towards Kante or Jorginho in the recent times.

I don't recall anyone saying last season that Kovacic shouldn't play, but as it happens, Kante was basically good enough to be sold while he's worth a good amount, for a lot of people here and there has been constant anti-Jorginho posters saying at any given opportunity that he simply shouldn't play at all. Granted, like I said I myself was against the Kovacic buy but I knew that we had no choice due to the transfer ban, and nobody can say that Kovacic last season proved his worth anyway.

You see, my reaction is the same as many were posting when Jorginho didn't play; like I said, any given opening to bash Jorginho was taken without any consideration, when he wasn't involved there were people saying exactly what I said: "Look, this player didn't play, we still won very easy, meaning we don't miss this player at all." So where were you to point that out to those posters at the time, that it's silly to do these things? I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's very easy to do those things so I chose to make it as a "what goes around comes around" type of thing, so if my reaction is wrong and silly - multiple people are wrong by default because of their statements. 

Here are my first statements about Kovacic, you may notice that I never ever say that a player like Kante doesn't fit in our system or stupid things like that:

On 09/08/2018 at 05:08, Gol15 said:

It's a type of player that managers don't prefer in the starting lineup because he doesn't do the defensive part of the job as a classic central midfielder, but he could be the player we really need, to help us with creating chances for goals should be his job because our strikers and most wingers are not consistent enough.
Sarri probably knows how to play him and this type of player that has a bit better acceleration and dribbling is what he most likely wanted as the final signing.

Barkley will have a new role with Sarri he wants to make him a more of a complete central midfielder so I can see Kovacic being that more offensive midfielder that has the ball in counter attacks but that shouldn't build up the play.

The key of this signing is that we have a squad capable of getting the best out of a type of player like Kovacic.
Having Kante should help him to focus on his offensive qualities, which is a big deal because if this works out we can get an easy top 4 finish at the end of the season.

Maybe I'm wrong when I said that he shouldn't be the one to build up the play because I found this:
 

Basically we got the midfield for a top 4 finish now on paper. Hopefully Sarri makes it work.

 

On 23/02/2019 at 12:07, Gol15 said:

Kovacic is a special type of player. He has good dribbling skills and can run with the ball but lacks a lot in other regards.

This is why every team that had him ended up putting him on the bench, he knows how to play the game very well but tactically you would always prefer someone with an end product in a particular part of the game. If he was just a bit faster maybe some manager would dare to put him as a winger, if he had a better shot maybe someone else would dare to put him right behind a striker with a more free role like an attacking midfielder. Maybe if our tactic was a normal 4-4-2 he would work much more with Kante in the midfield.

In this current Sarriball he brings the stability where he can keep the ball in our possession and sometimes contribute to the defensive covering.

 

On 03/09/2018 at 14:28, Gol15 said:

The most important thing is that he is contributing already.

Both him and Kante are getting used to their new roles, Jorginho is the only one that walked in the first 11 with the same football he had before joining.

So you see, I'm not a braindead type of a slojo, and I'm proud to say that I probably never will be. I try to defend our players if it's possible, when it's not (in the case of Batman for example) I simply have nothing to say, but I see what is unfair and I react to it.

[Valerie]

All this time and energy you spent on this post, and all I notice is how odd Kovacic looks in a Real Madrid strip 

[Gol15]

1 minute ago, Valerie said:

All this time and energy you spent on this post, and all I notice is how odd Kovacic looks in a Real Madrid strip 

Maybe the Adidas lines don't have the proper shade on that white, I'm not sure what it is but at least your eye caught something in there, so it was all worth it 

[Deino]

Hope he gets back to his best quickly. It's awful seeing a World Class player play as bad as he did the past month or so

[Munkunku]

It’s a sad state of affairs when you’re in the minority of liking all our midfield options (even bloody Barkley) as they all offer something different on their day and give us great tactical flexibility.
 

Gone our the days of the Mourinho ‘untouchables’, Frank can pick on form and how he feels he can best tactically approach each individual opposition. 

[Dean]

18 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

It’s a sad state of affairs when you’re in the minority of liking all our midfield options (even bloody Barkley) as they all offer something different on their day and give us great tactical flexibility.
 

Gone our the days of the Mourinho ‘untouchables’, Frank can pick on form and how he feels he can best tactically approach each individual opposition. 

I’m in that minority too. It’s great that we don’t have a fixed starting midfield - lessens injury risk, rests players when needed, different skill sets for different situations as you say, and it’s great for team spirit as a player doesn’t have to feel they’re being dropped if not selected. Apart from that, it’s just not a good look to be moaning all the time. Before having a moan, it’s worth thinking about those fans of teams in the lower divisions that never complain. We’re extremely lucky that we happen to support a team that’s challenging for 4th place in the premier league. Most of our players are pretty damn good!

[Vagabond]

21 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I will admit that I get baited too easy when it comes to Jorginho but how good he is according to me and if that is me making him look better than he actually is, that's debatable.

What you're actually saying here is that people just move from player to player and bash accordingly to how poorly any player is at any given moment, meaning that it's always justified and most of the time reasonable? I simply can't buy that, Chelsea fans in general have a reputation for un-reasonable critique towards their players, managers you name it. 

Last season Kovacic was average, I didn't bash him, in fact I openly stated that he is very good with the ball but lacks a speciality, or pace and that because of all that nobody was able to find the best position for him in his prior clubs, nobody got the best out of him, I will find my own first quotes about him at the end of this... As it happens Frankie found a sweet spot for him and he improved very much, but he isn't actually winning us games, he isn't De Bruyne. You will not see me talking about our players the way many talk about Kante and Jorginho these days or have been doing it for the past 11 months.

Ask yourself if people were this harsh to Kovacic last season, as people have been towards Kante or Jorginho in the recent times.

I don't recall anyone saying last season that Kovacic shouldn't play, but as it happens, Kante was basically good enough to be sold while he's worth a good amount, for a lot of people here and there has been constant anti-Jorginho posters saying at any given opportunity that he simply shouldn't play at all. Granted, like I said I myself was against the Kovacic buy but I knew that we had no choice due to the transfer ban, and nobody can say that Kovacic last season proved his worth anyway.

You see, my reaction is the same as many were posting when Jorginho didn't play; like I said, any given opening to bash Jorginho was taken without any consideration, when he wasn't involved there were people saying exactly what I said: "Look, this player didn't play, we still won very easy, meaning we don't miss this player at all." So where were you to point that out to those posters at the time, that it's silly to do these things? I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's very easy to do those things so I chose to make it as a "what goes around comes around" type of thing, so if my reaction is wrong and silly - multiple people are wrong by default because of their statements. 

Here are my first statements about Kovacic, you may notice that I never ever say that a player like Kante doesn't fit in our system or stupid things like that:

 

 

So you see, I'm not a braindead type of a slojo, and I'm proud to say that I probably never will be. I try to defend our players if it's possible, when it's not (in the case of Batman for example) I simply have nothing to say, but I see what is unfair and I react to it.

My point wasn't about your personal opinion but about the picture you painted regarding an appaling double-standard towards one player. Kovacic was compared to Bakayoko and many people didn't even want him in the squad only half a year ago. At the moment most of his haters are quiet, but that's because he was one of our best performers this season, not because people hate Jorgi for whatever reason. Most fans I know actually like Jorgi, and even those that would bench him think highly of him and regard him as a real asset.

Fans are fans. Some people will bash players because they want another in the starting XI, some don't like the body-language of certain players, some can't forgive mistakes a player made etcetc. Everybody has their favourites (even Lampard *cough* Mount *cough*). My issue with your post was that you said Kova is somehow safe from being the target of unreasonable critique, when not even players like Eden or N'Golo are exempt from fans venting their frustration after a loss or a bad performance.

PS: But let's talk about N'Golo, I really hate being off topic. Any news on when he'll be back? Hamstring injuries usually take a lot of time.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Vagabond

[Munkunku]

5 hours ago, Vagabond said:

(even Lampard *cough* Mount *cough*).

[bisright1]

On 14/01/2020 at 09:09, Munkworth said:

It’s a sad state of affairs when you’re in the minority of liking all our midfield options (even bloody Barkley) as they all offer something different on their day and give us great tactical flexibility.
 

Gone our the days of the Mourinho ‘untouchables’, Frank can pick on form and how he feels he can best tactically approach each individual opposition. 

Actually my fear is that kante is untouchable for Frank. When he's fit he plays and unfortunately he just doesn't offer what we need against the worse teams. 

He can't defend set pieces, he can't play a pass to unlock a defence, he can't even sling an accurate 20 yard pass to a full back and he can't shoot from distance (so teams don't get nervous when he has the ball).

He's world class at breaking up the play against good teams (essential against city and Liverpool) and he was developing into a player that did that in the final 3rd for sarri (so he contributed to our fantastic record against the bottom half last year) but hasnt done that second part of his game well this season. I don't know if that is lampards fault or kantes. 

Kante is essential when we play the top 5 teams for me and currently an anchor on our creativity when we need it against the other 14. It's not a coincidence we beat Burnley without him last week. 

[Vagabond]

13 hours ago, Munkworth said:

Heh. I simply think it's natural that Mason is inconsistent at his age and that he needs a break now and then, especially since fatigue will set in later this season and there's a higher risk of fractures and muscle injuries if a young player gets overburdened. I don't understand why Frank doesn't allow it. I also thought he rushed N'Golo, which not only hurt the player but the team as well.

[Munkunku]

@Vagabond yes but he’s a Pompey lad so he gets a free pass. I’m sorry but I don’t make the rules (even if I secretly agree) 

[Slojo]

On 15/01/2020 at 10:09, bisright1 said:

Actually my fear is that kante is untouchable for Frank. When he's fit he plays and unfortunately he just doesn't offer what we need against the worse teams. 

He can't defend set pieces, he can't play a pass to unlock a defence, he can't even sling an accurate 20 yard pass to a full back and he can't shoot from distance (so teams don't get nervous when he has the ball).

He's world class at breaking up the play against good teams (essential against city and Liverpool) and he was developing into a player that did that in the final 3rd for sarri (so he contributed to our fantastic record against the bottom half last year) but hasnt done that second part of his game well this season. I don't know if that is lampards fault or kantes. 

Kante is essential when we play the top 5 teams for me and currently an anchor on our creativity when we need it against the other 14. It's not a coincidence we beat Burnley without him last week. 

That's my fear aswell, Frank said Kante's performance stood out against Brighton, that right there scared me. 

[comtrend]

In the 8 PL games Kante didn't play we have 7 wins and one draw. We didn't play the best teams, but some of the games we have lost with Kante have also been against weaker oposition. I know he is a very good player when fit and against oposition that play a bit more open, but I wouldn't be against replacing him with a world class midfielder, if Real Madrid/PSG offered 100m+ for him in the summer.

 

[WhiteWall]

I can't believe some of the things i've read in this thread.

I just hope our players don't come onto this site to see what some of the opinions are.

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by WhiteWall

[Gol15]

19 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

I can't believe some of the things i've read in this thread.

I just hope our players don't come onto this site to see what some of the opinions are.

 

It doesn't really matter, this is not a significant sample of the fans anyway and nobody actually has a legitimate proof against Kante it's all strawman and shortsighted type of comments. People say the same things about most of our players if you go by that it would mean that here people would basically want to replace 6-7 out of our first starting 11 lol 😄