N'golo Kante - We are not worthy!

[Spiller86]

12 hours ago, Gol15 said:

He's by far our best player. Period, you sell him the whole squad gets worse.

The players just need different instructions, thats all. 

Remember the pre-season? Jorginho was pressing the highest, that early on resulted in some easy counter attacks against us, now the team doesn't press high so intensly but if the ball breaks and Kante is pressing the midfield falls apart and it's a huge pressure to the backline, this is a fact and the solution so far is a yellow card for Jorginho or Kovacic, or it's a goal against us.

Kante needs to stay in his own half when pressing and leave the pressing to Mount, he's good at that anyway.

Totally agree. The challenge against Brighton was he was being asked to press 20 metres ahead of everyone else largely alone. As soon as Brighton started to play longer or if they played around him he was having to cover 40m extra to get back. 

[strider6004]

4 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Totally agree. The challenge against Brighton was he was being asked to press 20 metres ahead of everyone else largely alone. As soon as Brighton started to play longer or if they played around him he was having to cover 40m extra to get back. 

That reminds me at Brighton at one point I saw Willian sprinting back from attack to cover at right back and I was thinking where the hell is the midfield?

[Scott Harris]

On 02/01/2020 at 01:00, axman2526 said:

Is simple Hazard is gone and he often got moaned at for not pulling a rabbit out of his a$$ every game. Now Kante is our only World class player left so he gets the grief.

Problem is Kante cannot pick up the mantle hazard left. He does a job so someone like Hazard has freedom. None of our attackers are anywhere near Hazard levels.

This is a weak reason to brush off criticism of a players performance. I just think Kante is playing poor. Saying he's only getting criticism because people expect him to pull the rabbit out of the hat because he's our one world class player is just a load of nonsense. It comes across like you are sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring valid criticisms.

This is nothing like the Hazard situation. Hazard was consistently playing well last season, but then he would have an off game or two, we would drop points and people would get on his back. Kante has looked really poor for pretty much all season, it's only some of the big games where he has looked more like himself. I don't expect Kante to be a difference maker in the same way Hazard was, but I do expect him to play well, and I just don't think he is. It has nothing to do with looking for a player to blame like you are suggesting. It's me watching him play and thinking he looks a bit sh*t in this current role.

[just]

Like others, I really don't see what you are stating as fact Scott. Kante's display against Lille was the most complete performance of any Chelsea player this season by a country mile. Simply awesome in every aspect. 

[loz]

Like others, I really don't see what you are stating as fact Scott. Kante's display against Lille was the most complete performance of any Chelsea player this season by a country mile. Simply awesome in every aspect. 

Agreed. Whilst I'd acknowledge he is not at his very best tales of him being in some sort of dramatic and ongoing form slump are massively exaggerated. Kovacic had a little purple patch of form which he is no longer peaking at and Jorginho has been hit and miss throughout the season. It just seems he just needs to play a few floaty forty yard passes and order players around a little and he is deemed to have been the best player on the park.

Kante is a far superior player to both.

[Argo]

2 minutes ago, loz said:

Agreed. Whilst I'd acknowledge he is not at his very best tales of him being in some sort of dramatic and ongoing form slump are massively exaggerated. Kovacic had a little purple patch of form which he is no longer peaking at and Jorginho has been hit and miss throughout the season. It just seems he just needs to play a few floaty forty yard passes and order players around a little and he is deemed to have been the best player on the park.

Kante is a far superior player to both.

No one saying he's on a drastic slump.

The point I (and others) have made is we had our best run and performances in-between the second and third international breaks and one of the big reason's for that was the Jorgi, Kova and Mount midfield. It shouldn't have been broken up immediately while it was at the top of it's game collectively.

Maybe one of them would have hit a slump not long after, maybe Kante would have come back in, had a screamer, followed it up with another and made himself untouchable again, fine fair enough, but the point is you don't break up something that is working and getting you both results and performances until either what's working slows down, or the volume of games require rotation.

If we want to promote playing by merit and fair competition then that has to apply to everyone from Kante right down to Jamie Cumming.

[Munkunku]

Didn’t play today. Chelsea won. Yep, all that bloody Kantes fault!

[loz]

No one saying he's on a drastic slump.

The point I (and others) have made is we had our best run and performances in-between the second and third international breaks and one of the big reason's for that was the Jorgi, Kova and Mount midfield. It shouldn't have been broken up immediately while it was at the top of it's game collectively.

Maybe one of them would have hit a slump not long after, maybe Kante would have come back in, had a screamer, followed it up with another and made himself untouchable again, fine fair enough, but the point is you don't break up something that is working and getting you both results and performances until either what's working slows down, or the volume of games require rotation.

If we want to promote playing by merit and fair competition then that has to apply to everyone from Kante right down to Jamie Cumming.

Plenty of people have. I've seen a fair number of references to 'been terrible all season' or been sh*te for ages. And after certain games remarks like 'can't think of a single thing he did right'

 

Its that sort of stupidity which ends up with people bickering about 'vendettas

 

[Nibs]

26 minutes ago, Argo said:

No one saying he's on a drastic slump.

The point I (and others) have made is we had our best run and performances in-between the second and third international breaks and one of the big reason's for that was the Jorgi, Kova and Mount midfield. It shouldn't have been broken up immediately while it was at the top of it's game collectively.

Maybe one of them would have hit a slump not long after, maybe Kante would have come back in, had a screamer, followed it up with another and made himself untouchable again, fine fair enough, but the point is you don't break up something that is working and getting you both results and performances until either what's working slows down, or the volume of games require rotation.

If we want to promote playing by merit and fair competition then that has to apply to everyone from Kante right down to Jamie Cumming.

But Lamps has tough decisions to make every week. He has to keep players fresh and rotate a bit. If he kept playing Kovacic and Jorginho and we lost and whilst he had Kante on the bench, people would be criticising him for that. Probably our best performance recently was the Spurs win where Jorginho didn't start and he came on for Kovacic second half. All of our players seems to be suffering from inconsistency. Prime example - Jorginho changes the game when he comes on against Arsenal but then isn't great against Brighton (not many were that day).

Really don't see a problem and as much as I love it when Jorginho & Kovacic start and play well, I don't think the pairing is quite as brilliant as some are making it out to be. It will work well some times but not always.

 

[Slojo]

1 hour ago, loz said:

Plenty of people have. I've seen a fair number of references to 'been terrible all season' or been sh*te for ages. And after certain games remarks like 'can't think of a single thing he did right'

 

Its that sort of stupidity which ends up with people bickering about 'vendettas

 

Where has anyone said those things? I've only seen one person who said we should sell him and that was it. 

These strawman attempts are poor, it's just an attempt to silence criticism by screaming Vendetta. It's almost as silly as you saying Kovacic had a purple patch when he has been consistently solid all season so far... 

[loz]

Where has anyone said those things? I've only seen one person who said we should sell him and that was it. 

These strawman attempts are poor, it's just an attempt to silence criticism by screaming Vendetta. It's almost as silly as you saying Kovacic had a purple patch when he has been consistently solid all season so far... 

You don't have to look far. There are a number in this thread alone. And more on various match threads. OK not word for word what I said but pretty much the exact point.

Kovacic was good for a while. But today poor, brutal when he came off bench against Brighton, pretty average against Arsenal.

So that's three below par performances on the bounce.

[Slojo]

11 minutes ago, loz said:

 

 

You don't have to look far. There are a number in this thread alone. And more on various match threads. OK not word for word what I said but pretty much the exact point.

Kovacic was good for a while. But today poor, brutal when he came off bench against Brighton, pretty average against Arsenal.

So that's three below par performances on the bounce.

 

I don't see what's wrong with any of those posts, it's not like they said "He's been sh*te for ages" is it. They've all explained why they think he has been bad. And if Kovacic was average against Arsenal then Kante was poor, imo I thought he was very poor against Arsenal. 

But is this what seriously constitutes as a vendetta these days? Neither of those posts are unreasonable, I wish people would stop throwing words like "Vendetta" around, it's just lazy and dishonest. I've only seen one irrational post surrounding Kante and that was from one of the new troll posters, that deadwood guy who said we should sell him, besides that, Sindre, Scott and Davey are some of the best posters on the forum, they deserve more respect. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Slojo

[loz]

You need to make your mind up a bit.

I said there were people saying he has been sh*te all season and you said nobody is saying that.

I then show you just an example of three posts

1. Says he is having a wretched season
2. Says he is having a shocking season
3. Says it is not just one bad game, he us like that every game.


What part of those aren't basically saying he has been sh*te all season?

[goose]

@Slojo you have been a big critic of Kanté this season and you are quiet entitled to your opinion. I don’t think he has been near as bad as people make out although I’ll admit he’s maybe not his usual brilliant.

I think why people say vendetta is that there are posters here who are obviously looking for Kantés mistakes and when he makes a misplaced pass or mistimed tackle they are straight on saying how sh*t he is this season and questioning why Frank is playing him. Other players play an awful lot worst without the level of criticism Kanté gets.

 

[Slojo]

2 hours ago, loz said:

You need to make your mind up a bit.

I said there were people saying he has been sh*te all season and you said nobody is saying that.

I then show you just an example of three posts

1. Says he is having a wretched season
2. Says he is having a shocking season
3. Says it is not just one bad game, he us like that every game.


What part of those aren't basically saying he has been sh*te all season?


 

So from all those posts all you take away is "He's been sh*te all season" ? That seems to be your problem, that's clearly not all they say at all. 

Also @goose no I haven't, only recently I have been, and plenty others agree. 

[loz]

So from all those posts all you take away is "He's been sh*te all season" ? That seems to be your problem, that's clearly not all they say at all. 

Also [mention=182]goose[/mention] no I haven't, only recently I have been, and plenty others agree. 

It's not a problem. It's a simple question of reading.

I don't dispute they go on to justify their point however that doesn't detract from the fact that, in their opinion, he has been sh*te all season. You denied anyone was saying that.

[Slojo]

Just now, loz said:

It's not a problem. It's a simple question of reading.

I don't dispute they go on to justify their point however that doesn't detract from the fact that, in their opinion, he has been sh*te all season. You denied anyone was saying that.

There's a difference from somebody coherently and rationally explaining their point while claiming one is having a bad season than just simply "He's been sh*te all season". Context matters, and you did try to paint it in a different light, and it does appear that's all you've gathered from their posts. If those posts are what constitute as a vendetta or going overboard, then there's literally no point in having a forum or a debate. 

[loz]

There's a difference from somebody coherently and rationally explaining their point while claiming one is having a bad season than just simply "He's been sh*te all season". Context matters, and you did try to paint it in a different light, and it does appear that's all you've gathered from their posts. If those posts are what constitute as a vendetta or going overboard, then there's literally no point in having a forum or a debate. 

You appear to be tiptoeing around the fact you got it wrong.

 

I said some people have said he has been sh*t all season.

 

You said nobody is saying that

 

I showed you three examples from one thread where people are saying exactly that.

 

You started playing the context card.

 

How well or sh*te he is playing is obviously a matter of opinion and exactly what a forum can debate but on the simple point that you denied anyone was saying he has been sh*te all season its clear you were mistaken. Is it that hard to admit that?

 

[Slojo]

4 hours ago, loz said:

Plenty of people have. I've seen a fair number of references to 'been terrible all season' or been sh*te for ages. And after certain games remarks like 'can't think of a single thing he did right'

 

Its that sort of stupidity which ends up with people bickering about 'vendettas

 

This is what you originally said, and all you had to show from it where 3 posts that went into depth for why Kante had a poor game. I would say they were objectively good posts also, agree or disagree. I would probably give you Sindre was being a big hysterical. But then again you went on to claim Kovacic has had a purple patch, which is worse than what RIP Mourinho said about Willian and he got a lot of sh*t for saying that, Kovacic has been one of our most consistent players this year. So you know... Stones...glass houses and all that. 

I think Scott and Davey put their points across well, he has been poor so far this season, particularly by Kante's standards, what's wrong with that? That's not a vendetta, and it's not a bad thing to say. It seems that you just don't want to engage with the criticism so you'll rather stamp "vendetta" over it and put it in a cabinet of arguments you wish to not engage with. 

Just now, loz said:

You appear to be tiptoeing around the fact you got it wrong.

I said done people have said he has been sh*t all season.

You said nobody is saying that

I showed you three examples from one thread where people are saying exactly that.

You started playing the context card.

How well or sh*te he is playing is obviously a matter of opinion and exactly what a forum can debate but on the simple point that you denied anyone was saying he has been sh*te all season its clear you were mistaken. Is it that hard to admit that?

I'm not at all, do you think I care if I got something wrong? I make mistakes every day, but I just think you exaggerated and the evidence you provided didn't match what you originally claimed. Those posters are saying more than just "Kante is having a sh*te season" and you know it. I'm surprised you didn't bring up the one guy saying we should sell Kante, because that's one I will agree with you on. 

[Scott Harris]

On 05/01/2020 at 17:43, just said:

Like others, I really don't see what you are stating as fact Scott. Kante's display against Lille was the most complete performance of any Chelsea player this season by a country mile. Simply awesome in every aspect. 

To be fair, I have been saying that Kante has been playing well in the big games this season. I remember saying Kante's performance against Liverpool in the Super Cup was up there with his best ever performances, he was amazing. 

It's not the big games I have a problem with, it's the games against the defensive sides I feel he is struggling against.

[Ukraine Bolt]

Injured again, becoming a common theme

[Kev56]

18 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Injured again, becoming a common theme

Such a shame, up until now he's been bullet proof.

[Deino]

2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Injured again, becoming a common theme

He needs to properly recover. His playstyle doesn't work when he keeps being rushed back from injury either by the club, Frank or himself personally.

Needs a proper rest and watch tactical videos 

[Davey Baby]

He's had the odd good game but by and large he's been really poor this season, not sure why that's proved so controversial on this thread. It's patently true. It might be injury it might be something else but it's patently true. Talk of vendettas is just idiots looking up long words on google.

 

Also, saying we might be better against weaker sides at home without him may just have a ring of truth to it, as we saw yesterday for example. We've struggled at home against weaker sides. Maybe his injury did us a favour yesterday.

 

People getting their knickers in a twist over nothing. These are the facts of the matter.

[Dean]

On 05/01/2020 at 18:04, loz said:

Agreed. Whilst I'd acknowledge he is not at his very best tales of him being in some sort of dramatic and ongoing form slump are massively exaggerated. Kovacic had a little purple patch of form which he is no longer peaking at and Jorginho has been hit and miss throughout the season. It just seems he just needs to play a few floaty forty yard passes and order players around a little and he is deemed to have been the best player on the park.

Kante is a far superior player to both.

While i agree Kovacic’s form has dipped somewhat recently, it’s premature and unfair to dismiss what he’s done this season as a ‘purple patch’. It’s hard to maintain that form over the course of a season and all players are susceptible to dips in form. He’s only 25. Why not wait and see? I agree that the talk of Kante’s demise is greatly exaggerated, but it’s perfectly possible to make that argument without laying into Kovacic and Jorginho. It’s not a zero sum thing. While on balance Kante may be our best player, they all offer different things depending on a number of factors.