59 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

Having Kovacic on the field gives more control and protection to the back 4 ( more like back 3 with Alonso playing high up), and take pressure of Jorginho since he's the obvious man opposition tries to close down. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't start against Spurs after the international break.

But here's the thing, we seem to have three players regularly starting in the midfield who all seem to have a similar job. 

Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic whenever people (me included) talk about their role in the team it's all about keeping things ticking over, providing cover, recycling possession etc. etc. 

My personal opinion, despite the flaws in their game, RLC and Barkley offer us something that none of the midfielders and that's a genuine threat in the final third. 

Barkley has started to show an eye for goal and has set up a couple of goals now with some great vision and well weighted through balls. RLC has shown he's got it in him to score goals too but he's close control is great and he isn't afraid to try and dribble into the box from deeper positions. 

This isn't a criticism of Kovacic who is clearly a very neat little player but I just feel we'd benefit from having someone in that midfield three who offers us a genuine attacking threat in the oppositions' half. 

I still think Kovacic should be rotated with Kante. He is a tidy player, good in possession and can put a tackle in. But he offers little-to-no goal threat and we need one of the midfield 3 to be a goal scorer, or too much pressure is on the striker and wingers to get all the goals.

3 hours ago, Zeta said:

I still think Kovacic should be rotated with Kante. He is a tidy player, good in possession and can put a tackle in. But he offers little-to-no goal threat and we need one of the midfield 3 to be a goal scorer, or too much pressure is on the striker and wingers to get all the goals.

I would like us to try that for a couple of  matches with Kante on the bench to see if it helps and see if Barkley makes a difference alongside Kovacic.

Do we need Kante against smaller opposition? That's the next conundrum.

4 minutes ago, JMaher94 said:

Do we need Kante against smaller opposition? That's the next conundrum.

That's a bit arrogant, though.  Unless we draw someone like Little Piddlehinton Wanderers in the FA Cup there are very few "smaller opposition" teams.  if you take that mindset, you are setting yourself up  for an embarrassing arse-kicking.  Again.

21 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

That's a bit arrogant, though.  Unless we draw someone like Little Piddlehinton Wanderers in the FA Cup there are very few "smaller opposition" teams.  if you take that mindset, you are setting yourself up  for an embarrassing arse-kicking.  Again.

It's not arrogant at all to think we need a more attacking outlet against lesser opposition.

Yes, we may get pinched on the counter but we'll also do a lot more going forward.

I'm one of Kante's biggest fan but it seems against lesser sides, he doesn't have the desired effect as we control the ball more, especially under Sarri.

You keep on about "lesser" sides though.  That's the arrogant bit.  How did we do against a lesser piss-poor Pikies?  How did we do against a lesser Derby?

5 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Guessing you haven't watched Mount much? Still miles behind RLC and Barkley.

Neither would have had the discipline to have performed the man marking job on Fabregas that Mason did.

7 hours ago, Zeta said:

I still think Kovacic should be rotated with Kante. He is a tidy player, good in possession and can put a tackle in. But he offers little-to-no goal threat and we need one of the midfield 3 to be a goal scorer, or too much pressure is on the striker and wingers to get all the goals.

I agree, I don't see him as an attacking midfielder. He's not creative enough for me. His best position is where Kante is playing.

20 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

But here's the thing, we seem to have three players regularly starting in the midfield who all seem to have a similar job. 

Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic whenever people (me included) talk about their role in the team it's all about keeping things ticking over, providing cover, recycling possession etc. etc. 

My personal opinion, despite the flaws in their game, RLC and Barkley offer us something that none of the midfielders and that's a genuine threat in the final third. 

Barkley has started to show an eye for goal and has set up a couple of goals now with some great vision and well weighted through balls. RLC has shown he's got it in him to score goals too but he's close control is great and he isn't afraid to try and dribble into the box from deeper positions. 

This isn't a criticism of Kovacic who is clearly a very neat little player but I just feel we'd benefit from having someone in that midfield three who offers us a genuine attacking threat in the oppositions' half. 

I actually think we should try giving RLC or Barkley a start but in Kante's position instead after the Spurs game. 

See how a midfield of Kovacic-Jorginho-Barkley/RLC turns out. 

16 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

You keep on about "lesser" sides though.  That's the arrogant bit.  How did we do against a lesser piss-poor Pikies?  How did we do against a lesser Derby?

With all due respect though, it's that type of arrogance that puts the sh*ts up these smaller teams, look at City, they're extremely ambitious in their approach, they played like 3 wingers and 1 attacking midfielder against United and demolished them. 

I think paying the smaller teams respect is what gives them the confidence to go out and beat us, I do love Kante but I think maybe we could try and opt out a different approach in games where we need to break down teams. 

50 minutes ago, Slojo said:

With all due respect though, it's that type of arrogance that puts the sh*ts up these smaller teams, look at City, they're extremely ambitious in their approach, they played like 3 wingers and 1 attacking midfielder against United and demolished them. 

I think paying the smaller teams respect is what gives them the confidence to go out and beat us, I do love Kante but I think maybe we could try and opt out a different approach in games where we need to break down teams. 

No, I think you might have misunderstood.  By all means the team should always go out with the air of arrogance that says "we are going to beat you and we are going to beat you good".  It's the attitude amongst the fanbase that lets them say, and believe, that team X is a lesser side and can be disrespected.  

Football is a game of skill and luck, not in equal measure.  Yes, skill should always win out, but how many times does luck, both good and bad, directly influence a result?  I count bad refereeing decisions both ways as luck.

Just look at our last few matches.  How many people have said things along the lines of "we were lucky" or "Derby were the better side and were unlucky", and several variations on the "Palace/Southampton/Liverpool/whatever were unlucky and should have scored"

Bottom line is that any team can beat any team on any given day.  Stevie G is a total w**ker, and I believe was hugely over-rated, but, on one very fortuitous moment for the entire country, he was unlucky.

It's just thoughtless arrogance to condemn other sides as "lesser" or "smaller"     That's what the Mancs and the  f**king dippers do.  Let's not get like them, eh?

After all

 

1 hour ago, yorkleyblue said:

No, I think you might have misunderstood.  By all means the team should always go out with the air of arrogance that says "we are going to beat you and we are going to beat you good".  It's the attitude amongst the fanbase that lets them say, and believe, that team X is a lesser side and can be disrespected.  

Football is a game of skill and luck, not in equal measure.  Yes, skill should always win out, but how many times does luck, both good and bad, directly influence a result?  I count bad refereeing decisions both ways as luck.

Just look at our last few matches.  How many people have said things along the lines of "we were lucky" or "Derby were the better side and were unlucky", and several variations on the "Palace/Southampton/Liverpool/whatever were unlucky and should have scored"

Bottom line is that any team can beat any team on any given day.  Stevie G is a total w**ker, and I believe was hugely over-rated, but, on one very fortuitous moment for the entire country, he was unlucky.

It's just thoughtless arrogance to condemn other sides as "lesser" or "smaller"     That's what the Mancs and the  f**king dippers do.  Let's not get like them, eh?

After all

 

I wouldn't read too much into that I know what you mean, calling them "lesser" or "smaller" sides, but realistically that's what they are compared to us. 

Obviously any team can beat anyone on any given night but our expectations should always be to beat every side outside the top 6 home/away, obviously we aren't going to, but that should always be the expectation because we are good enough.

Football at the moment has become much more attacking oriented and fast-paced than it used to be, less about defensive discipline, more about attacking fluidity and getting around defenders. I think Jose's style is outdated, he shows teams that United should be beating far too much respect, you might see my comment as disrespectful to the side they're playing against, but realistically United should be beating these teams, they have immense quality. 

I do now think getting Sarri was a great idea and we should stick to attacking football from now on, that's why I think we should try a game without Kante and see how we do. 

19 hours ago, Argo said:

Neither would have had the discipline to have performed the man marking job on Fabregas that Mason did.

Literally just have to stand next to Cesc to man mark him. Phil Foden did the exact same thing to Jorginho in the Community Shield. Christ, even Everton was able to man mark Jorginho out the game at the weekend. Hardly the signs of a player ready to play for Chelsea.

Our midfield provides very little protection to the defence as it is. If you were to take Kanté out of the equation we'd get slaughtered.

4 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

Our midfield provides very little protection to the defence as it is. If you were to take Kanté out of the equation we'd get slaughtered.

Look at the team City played against United on Sunday, hardly any defensive cover in that and plus it's not like Kante is getting back that much these days. 

I say give it a try and see how we do, we look really good on the ball at times I think it might surprise you. 

39 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

Our midfield provides very little protection to the defence as it is. If you were to take Kanté out of the equation we'd get slaughtered.

And they provide even less in attack!

Incredibly, if you point this out on here you're classed as an idiot or a troll. Never, ever as a football fan can I ever remember the majority of a clubs fans bring happy with a midfield that is weak in defence and attack. Its ok to slaughter Morata, dig at Willian, Barkley, Pedro,  Luiz,   but our midfield trio are sacred to them. Oh, i forgot, they keep the ball rolling. Like you have to be a fecking genius to pass the ball 5 yards.

39 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Look at the team City played against United on Sunday, hardly any defensive cover in that

Not much attacking threat from United either. But that may be your point in that it's not needed in games here the opposition sets up like that. 

City does their defending much higher up the pitch. The difference between Augerro, Sterling, Sane, Silva, Mahrez pressing vs. Morata/WIllian/Hazard is stark. If they can break the front press, Fernandinho offers very good protection to the back 4, if he can't make a tackle, he'll take the foul.

 

50 minutes ago, Dixon said:

And they provide even less in attack!

Incredibly, if you point this out on here you're classed as an idiot or a troll. Never, ever as a football fan can I ever remember the majority of a clubs fans bring happy with a midfield that is weak in defence and attack. Its ok to slaughter Morata, dig at Willian, Barkley, Pedro,  Luiz,   but our midfield trio are sacred to them. Oh, i forgot, they keep the ball rolling. Like you have to be a fecking genius to pass the ball 5 yards.

We're only halfway into November, and so far RLC has 4 goals, Barkley has 3 goals and 3 assists, Kante has a goal and an assist, Jorginho and Fab both have a goal each, and Kovacic has an assist. It's not like there's nothing attacking coming from our midfield.

Edited November 13, 20187 yr by Kentonio

44 minutes ago, Kentonio said:

We're only halfway into November, and so far RLC has 4 goals, Barkley has 3 goals and 3 assists, Kante has a goal and an assist, Jorginho and Fab both have a goal each, and Kovacic has an assist. It's not like there's nothing attacking coming from our midfield.

I meant the sacred 3 of Kante. Kova and Jorginho. A third of the way thru the season their attacking stats are pitiful! Its not just the stats tho. The dire lack of threat from them means teams can alnost ignore them. City scare teams because they are loaded with serious threat. If Hazard isn't on top form we become pretty average. I keep saying it, but if we are to ever challenge this City team we're going to need far more from those three! If not, then at the very least one of them will have to go! We  are doing OK inspite of them, not because of them! 

Edited November 13, 20187 yr by Dixon

2 minutes ago, Dixon said:

I meant the sacred 3 of Kante. Kova and Jorginho. A third of the way thru the season their attacking stats are pitiful! We are doing OK inspite of them, not because of them!

Personally I'd prefer Kova to have a few goals by now of course, but Jorginho and Kante aren't there to provide goals. Jorginho is there to direct our play from deep and Kante to press and turn over possession when we lose it.

I think it’s obvious that Kovacic is a much better player than Barkley and RLC. I get the point about lack of goals and assists, but he makes the team click whereas Barkley and RLC would look abit out of place.

If I was the manager I’d have Kovacic as a regular, with Barkley or RLC coming off the bench. It’s not all about the stats for me, it’s about how the players compliment each other and I feel Kovacic gives the team a much better balance.

Im a huge fan of Kovacic though, have been since his Inter days so obviously I am biased.

3 hours ago, Dixon said:

And they provide even less in attack!

Incredibly, if you point this out on here you're classed as an idiot or a troll. Never, ever as a football fan can I ever remember the majority of a clubs fans bring happy with a midfield that is weak in defence and attack. Its ok to slaughter Morata, dig at Willian, Barkley, Pedro,  Luiz,   but our midfield trio are sacred to them. Oh, i forgot, they keep the ball rolling. Like you have to be a fecking genius to pass the ball 5 yards.

Given we have had a number midfielders in the past with a habit of often finding opponents when it was easier to find teammates (ala Matic, Meireles, Oscar, Bakayoko, Ramires for example) in times gone by i thought we would be the last set of fans to mock the idea of having a midfield capable of keeping possession and dominating games.

You can make a case for Barkley being the better option than Kova when he is on it like he was in the period between the Saints and Burnley games, but for the most part it's a no contest, and this is coming from one of the very few who actually vouched for Barkley's signing in the first place.

Edited November 13, 20187 yr by Argo

1 hour ago, dansubrosa said:

I think it’s obvious that Kovacic is a much better player than Barkley and RLC. I get the point about lack of goals and assists, but he makes the team click whereas Barkley and RLC would look abit out of place.

If I was the manager I’d have Kovacic as a regular, with Barkley or RLC coming off the bench. It’s not all about the stats for me, it’s about how the players compliment each other and I feel Kovacic gives the team a much better balance.

Im a huge fan of Kovacic though, have been since his Inter days so obviously I am biased.

Is he an attacking midfielder though? His career up to this point would suggest that he isn't. I don't think he should be sharing that position with Barkley and Loftus-Cheek. He should be sharing a spot in the team with Kante. I think Kovacic is an excellent footballer, but I don't think he's a great attacking midfielder.

Edited November 13, 20187 yr by Scott Harris

23 minutes ago, Argo said:

Given we have had a number midfielders in the past with a habit of often finding opponents when it was easier to find teammates (ala Matic, Meireles, Oscar, Bakayoko, Ramires for example) in times gone by i thought we would be the last set of fans to mock the idea of having a midfield capable of keeping possession and dominating games.

You can make a case for Barkley being the better option than Kova when he is on it like he was in the period between the Saints and Burnley games, but for the most part it's a no contest, and this is coming from one of the very few who actually vouched for Barkley's signing in the first place.

And do you think teams are bothered about our midfield having possession when they know they can't/ don't hurt them with it? Can you seriously not see the enormous gulf between what City's players do with the ball and our three? Look, I'm happy with the progress so far, especially after the shambolic summer with Sarri coming in so late. But those three together will not be good enough longterm. Fine if we want to be 3rd-6th level team cut defo not champs!