Well. If we get Kai (i hope we do) we should play to our strenghts. Both Kova and kante are better when playing as two men midfield with one attacking in front of them. Yes with those two we lack creativity going forward but Kai would solve that problem. Also Kai has the vest stats when he played as 10 behind the striker. I think 4 2 3 1 would be best and most balanced formation for team.. Kante and kova would be great at helping our deffence and with kai we would still have that one midfielder who will be threat going forward. If we play 4 3 3 with one DM I think we would be more of attacking threat but at same time would lack in deffensive duties.. Vs lowblock team Mount nd Kai with DM behind them is way to go.. But we should be happy for having Kova in team.. Same with mount and any other CM.. We need deph for whole season in the end. At least Lampard can do some tactical changes in formation vs given team we play.

3 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Fair enough. As I already said I agree with you about Willian, I’d actually be happy if we gave him the 2 year deal. I just think there needs to be an understanding that he’s not a starter week in, week out anymore. If he’s happy with that then great, as I also said I totally agree we could have used him in the final - he’s a big game player and gives us something none of our other wide players do. But would I want him in a lineup where we’re trying to beat a Bournemouth team sitting with 10 men in the box, probably not - unless we get a free kick.

 

So you think it’s fair to blame the front three? So what’s your views on my point that he had one of the best front three’s in world football in front of him and still couldn’t get over 10 assists in 100 games? Surely that completely negates the argument it’s the forwards fault? 

I wouldn't say I blame them, but I do think people should be looking at our front 3 when they're asking for goals/assists. That's not to make excuses for Kovacic's end product. Maybe I've just had this argument so many times I've just lost patience with it. But I will say there were two big moments in the United game where he should've shot, the United players backed off and gave him all the space in the world, and what did he do? He tried to slide the ball in. But despite that, he was solid as a rock that whole game, didn't give Bruno a yard of space and his distribution was superb. 

I just think people get too hung up on players like KDB and expect Kovacic to be the same type of player, they're both completely different, Kovacic plays wayyy deeper for one, it's very rare he actually gets forward. I don't think you can look at his goals/assists and determine if he's good enough or not, not saying you're saying he's not good enough, I know you rate him. But there have been plenty of times where he could've had about 5-6 assists this season where he played Tammy in for a 1 v 1 and Tammy scuffed it. I know, shudda wudda cudda, but that's how stats are also, especially assists, they aren't necessarily a strong metric to judge midfielders on, wingers and attacking midfielders yes. 

23 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I wouldn't say I blame them, but I do think people should be looking at our front 3 when they're asking for goals/assists. That's not to make excuses for Kovacic's end product. Maybe I've just had this argument so many times I've just lost patience with it. But I will say there were two big moments in the United game where he should've shot, the United players backed off and gave him all the space in the world, and what did he do? He tried to slide the ball in. But despite that, he was solid as a rock that whole game, didn't give Bruno a yard of space and his distribution was superb. 

I just think people get too hung up on players like KDB and expect Kovacic to be the same type of player, they're both completely different, Kovacic plays wayyy deeper for one, it's very rare he actually gets forward. I don't think you can look at his goals/assists and determine if he's good enough or not, not saying you're saying he's not good enough, I know you rate him. But there have been plenty of times where he could've had about 5-6 assists this season where he played Tammy in for a 1 v 1 and Tammy scuffed it. I know, shudda wudda cudda, but that's how stats are also, especially assists, they aren't necessarily a strong metric to judge midfielders on, wingers and attacking midfielders yes. 

All fair points that I’d struggle to disagree with but as you’ve highlighted when I say ‘end products’ I’m referring to all his actions in the final third. His decision making in that area of the pitch does need work and if he could nail that, even just chipping in with a handful of goals/assists or just the threat of him having a ping from the edge of the area - it would take his game to the next level in my opinion. It would also give us another dimension as a team when we’re attacking. If there’s any manager who can help him with making the right calls in the final third from central midfield, you’d hope it would be the man who was a master at it.

3 hours ago, Malcolm9 said:

I would prefer Kovacic to have more end product in assists and goals. There are times when the pass is on after he has made a fantastic dribble and then he goes for a sideways pass or turns back and plays it safe.

We need more from our midfield next season, and I really hope we get Havertz to increase our attacking potency.

If Kovacic doesn't start shooting next season he will never be a top player because he is entering his peak. The big hope is that he can be encouraged to be more free to take shots outside of the box, mainly because of Lampard that has been trying to make him gain confidence and try shooting more already, there were games where after he shot, he turned to Lampard and he's clapping...If there is someone that can make him shoot more that's Lampard.

With Lampard he can end up scoring since he isn't that bad at shooting, his goal vs Valencia proved it as it was a very clean strike. Otherwise if he just stays the same he will sadly never be a difference maker, I can see Lampard putting Kante deep and having Mount and Havertz in front like 8's which would increase our press ability and we would be more dangerous in the final third, something that we really need to be. After all that's what he already tried with Mount and Barkley.

Edited August 3, 20205 yr by Gol15

Take Pirlo as an example, he is regarded as one of the greatest midfielders of all time yet he only registered 120 assists and 73 goals in 756 games.

Modric, 103 assists in 575 games. These two have played with superstars whereas Kovacic haven’t yet (He wasn’t a regular at Madrid.)

Give him time, he’ll get more assists next season I’m sure but I’m really not judging him on that. He’s so crucial to the way we play, he breaks the press and starts the attack. Easily our best player this/last season.

Just now, dansubrosa said:

Take Pirlo as an example, he is regarded as one of the greatest midfielders of all time yet he only registered 120 assists and 73 goals in 756 games.

Modric, 103 assists in 575 games. These two have played with superstars whereas Kovacic haven’t yet (He wasn’t a regular at Madrid.)

Give him time, he’ll get more assists next season I’m sure but I’m really not judging him on that. He’s so crucial to the way we play, he breaks the press and starts the attack. Easily our best player this/last season.

At some point we should stop comparing Kovacic to the likes of some of the best players...Stop pushing it, when he shows he is that good we'll know. He wasn't a regular at Madrid because he wasn't good enough, end of story, Real Madrid doesn't regret selling him.

I really wish fans would stop basing a players usefulness completely on his stats, its so sh*t. One of the best Midfielders in the prems history has a 1 in 10 for assists and goals, in one of the highest scoring teams, Roy Keane. But I bet not one Utd fan talks him down because of it. 

I really wish fans would stop basing a players usefulness completely on his stats, its so sh*t. One of the best Midfielders in the prems history has a 1 in 10 for assists and goals, in one of the highest scoring teams, Roy Keane. But I bet not one Utd fan talks him down because of it. 

I think the end product talk is sort of childish. However with Kovacic I want more end product. For me though it is not the crucial part. I feel people are taken by his beautiful style. He looks like a work of art gliding on the grass with the ball. He is good at recovering ball back as well although he makes crucial mistakes here and there.

What he lacks IMO is football brain to know what is happening around him. Too seldom his beautiful runs end up as nothing. He plays such a crucial role in the midfield you can't bypass that.

I still don't know his role in the team. Last term this was pretty apparent, this season he has improved very much. Still I don't know what he does exactly.

He is not Kroos who controls the play like Ballack, he is not Kante who recovers the ball back. He is an utility player who is almost good at everything but master of none.

I sound probably too harsh towards someone who's had a breakthrough season for us and he is POTY for many. I just don't see him as this special. He needs to find himself and his role for me to be talked so highly.

Very interesting to see if Havertz signs and Frank puts him as an 8 what happens with Kovacic. Maybe the two complement each other beautifully. Hope so.

2 hours ago, evissy said:

I think the end product talk is sort of childish. However with Kovacic I want more end product. For me though it is not the crucial part. I feel people are taken by his beautiful style. He looks like a work of art gliding on the grass with the ball. He is good at recovering ball back as well although he makes crucial mistakes here and there.

What he lacks IMO is football brain to know what is happening around him. Too seldom his beautiful runs end up as nothing. He plays such a crucial role in the midfield you can't bypass that.

I still don't know his role in the team. Last term this was pretty apparent, this season he has improved very much. Still I don't know what he does exactly.

He is not Kroos who controls the play like Ballack, he is not Kante who recovers the ball back. He is an utility player who is almost good at everything but master of none.

I sound probably too harsh towards someone who's had a breakthrough season for us and he is POTY for many. I just don't see him as this special. He needs to find himself and his role for me to be talked so highly.

Very interesting to see if Havertz signs and Frank puts him as an 8 what happens with Kovacic. Maybe the two complement each other beautifully. Hope so.

Agree with all of that.

I don't think Kovacic is as good as some make out, but then he isn't as bad as others make out. He hasn't had a bad season but he hasn't had a great season. I'm not saying he is average but I think as @evissy says, Kovacic is good at everything without being exceptional. Maybe he can kick=on again next season - I hope so.

Where i get concerned with Kovacic was highlighted in the Cup Final. Some players just make time and space on the ball - players like Pirlo, Gullit, Toure. Kovacic tries to do that but he holds onto the ball far too long at times and invites trouble. I'm always a nervous wreck watching him as although he can dribble like Hazard at times, he always looks likely to lose the ball and he's usually in our own half when he does it. He was wrongly sent off for the second yellow but he picked up the first yellow by holding onto the ball for far too long, then running into trouble and losing the ball and having to make a foul. These things do happen but seem to happen to Kovacic more than anyone and I'm sure Lamps will be having a word about it.

 

 

4 hours ago, dkw said:

I really wish fans would stop basing a players usefulness completely on his stats, its so sh*t. One of the best Midfielders in the prems history has a 1 in 10 for assists and goals, in one of the highest scoring teams, Roy Keane. But I bet not one Utd fan talks him down because of it. 

Probably because Roy has a special set of skills, he’ll find them and when he does he’ll beat seven shades of sh*t out of them!

8 hours ago, Nibs said:

Agree with all of that.

I don't think Kovacic is as good as some make out, but then he isn't as bad as others make out. He hasn't had a bad season but he hasn't had a great season. I'm not saying he is average but I think as @evissy says, Kovacic is good at everything without being exceptional. Maybe he can kick=on again next season - I hope so.

Where i get concerned with Kovacic was highlighted in the Cup Final. Some players just make time and space on the ball - players like Pirlo, Gullit, Toure. Kovacic tries to do that but he holds onto the ball far too long at times and invites trouble. I'm always a nervous wreck watching him as although he can dribble like Hazard at times, he always looks likely to lose the ball and he's usually in our own half when he does it. He was wrongly sent off for the second yellow but he picked up the first yellow by holding onto the ball for far too long, then running into trouble and losing the ball and having to make a foul. These things do happen but seem to happen to Kovacic more than anyone and I'm sure Lamps will be having a word about it.

 

 

You're worried when Kovacic has the ball? You must be a nervous wreck when the rest of our players have the ball then, he's one of the best with it. If he hasn't had a great season then nobody has, he's definitely been one of our best players, I think there have been a handful of players who have been great for us this season and have a future here, he's one of them. Only exception is Willian, great season, but looks like he's moving on, it is what it is. 

21 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Do you think Willian is a starter over Pulisic and Ziyech? Exactly what do you mean ‘somehow’? He displayed it in Conte’s second season when he put a whole load of ‘🏆’ emoji’s across Conte after the FA Cup Final. Do you think that demonstrates professionalism from a senior player in the squad? 

Given the way Conte behaved in the second half of that season i find it very hard to get outraged over Willian doing that. Conte did a lot worse what felt like every week.

3 hours ago, Slojo said:

You're worried when Kovacic has the ball? You must be a nervous wreck when the rest of our players have the ball then, he's one of the best with it. If he hasn't had a great season then nobody has, he's definitely been one of our best players, I think there have been a handful of players who have been great for us this season and have a future here, he's one of them. Only exception is Willian, great season, but looks like he's moving on, it is what it is. 

Kovacic is one of the few I feel really comfortable with when he has the ball, I`m not sure where this thinking that he always loses is has come from as it doesnt seem that way to me. If anything I would rather he attempted more risky passes than he currently does, an attacking player losing the ball often while attempting forward passes is not a problem any fans should ever worry about, thats literally their job.

2 hours ago, dkw said:

Kovacic is one of the few I feel really comfortable with when he has the ball, I`m not sure where this thinking that he always loses is has come from as it doesnt seem that way to me. If anything I would rather he attempted more risky passes than he currently does, an attacking player losing the ball often while attempting forward passes is not a problem any fans should ever worry about, thats literally their job.

With the way we defend against counter-attacks, a misplaced forward pass is an assist to the opposition.

 

10 hours ago, dkw said:

Kovacic is one of the few I feel really comfortable with when he has the ball, I`m not sure where this thinking that he always loses is has come from as it doesnt seem that way to me. If anything I would rather he attempted more risky passes than he currently does, an attacking player losing the ball often while attempting forward passes is not a problem any fans should ever worry about, thats literally their job.

Totally agree, but when Kovacic runs into trouble and loses the ball, it's often in our own half and that's what makes me nervy. 

But as @Slojo rightly pointed out, we have defenders that are a lot less composed on the ball who make me even more nervy!!

19 hours ago, Backbiter said:

With the way we defend against counter-attacks, a misplaced forward pass is an assist to the opposition.

 

I think you’re both right. On initial point - also don’t know where this idea that he loses the ball has come from. The stats don’t agree. Perhaps it’s because he loses it so rarely that people only notice when he does? 
 

Reconciling the apparent contradiction of him not taking enough risks vs the imperative not to cede possession with a misplaced forward pass, I’d say he’s probably a tad too risk-averse but on the other hand if every time he went forward he attempted the killer pass, setting up opposition counterattacks, we’d be berating him for that too. Unlike many on here, I think his risk assessment / decision-making is pretty good overall.
 

Afterthought - could opinion on this thread be less divided than it seems? I mean does anyone actually think he hasn’t had a good season?

3 hours ago, Dean said:

Afterthought - could opinion on this thread be less divided than it seems? I mean does anyone actually think he hasn’t had a good season?

I think people can see the class in Kovacic and want him to do more. However to expect him to turn into a Lampard/Fabregas hybrid is a much to ask for I think.

16 hours ago, Nibs said:

Totally agree, but when Kovacic runs into trouble and loses the ball, it's often in our own half and that's what makes me nervy. 

But as @Slojo rightly pointed out, we have defenders that are a lot less composed on the ball who make me even more nervy!!

Kovacic does not lose the ball often mate, come on, you're exaggerating there. He's easily one of the best players on the ball. But an underlying issue is that him and Jorginho (especially in the last game) like to pass it around at the back, and our defenders just can't hack it, any bit of pressure put on them and we're f**ked. That to me, isn't their fault, they have to pass it to the defence, they can't just keep passing it forward all the time, the distribution from the back is just not good enough. 

I would say Kovacic's strong points are his ball retention skills, they're superb, it's his final ball people are disappointed with and I can actually see why. 

On 03/08/2020 at 16:23, dkw said:

I really wish fans would stop basing a players usefulness completely on his stats, its so sh*t. One of the best Midfielders in the prems history has a 1 in 10 for assists and goals, in one of the highest scoring teams, Roy Keane. But I bet not one Utd fan talks him down because of it. 

The Makalele's goal record was 'kin atrocious, and he couldn't assist for sh*t. TF we got rid of him, eh?

I like Kova, I like that he is at least willing to carry the ball forward, and he shields it well making him tough to tackle.  At times I just wish he'd continue those runs right past the keeper

6 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

I think people can see the class in Kovacic and want him to do more. However to expect him to turn into a Lampard/Fabregas hybrid is a much to ask for I think.

He just needs to shoot more. For the modern game he needs to do more than just running with the ball, even Kante improved his end product when he needed to. With Lampard being his coach he has a good opportunity to learn to take more shots, it's not like he lacks the skill for it, his goal against Valencia was great.

18 hours ago, Gol15 said:

He just needs to shoot more. For the modern game he needs to do more than just running with the ball, even Kante improved his end product when he needed to. With Lampard being his coach he has a good opportunity to learn to take more shots, it's not like he lacks the skill for it, his goal against Valencia was great.

That’s all he’s missing. There were times when he made amazing runs, got himself in to a bit of space outside the box with the world screaming to shoot but he’s taken an extra touch he doesn’t need and passed it on because the opportunity has gone. It has to be his mentality because he‘s got the technical ability. 

That’s all he’s missing. There were times when he made amazing runs, got himself in to a bit of space outside the box with the world screaming to shoot but he’s taken an extra touch he doesn’t need and passed it on because the opportunity has gone. It has to be his mentality because he‘s got the technical ability. 

He frustrates the hell out of me in those situations. He runs beautifully and then stops and passes sideways. What he needs to do is to go the length and someone else in the team covers for him. Now he seems to always realize 'f**k I just left my spot, no one is there to cover'.

The run becomes useless essentially. It would be better for him to pass it right away so the front pack can attack in its natural way. Now they just watch Mateo glide through and wait for his decision. That is something Willian does. Just as the defense is disorganised he stops and lets everyone take their place and the attack is over.

This is why I don't know what or who that man is as a player. Frank could coach him better individually. He should. Mateo's skills are excellent in many ways.

Very good player but needs to shoot more.

Really poor last night. He tends to get caught in possession and bailed out however last night was a costly error. 
 

A fantastic player however needs more awareness at times.