1 hour ago, cfcforeverfan said:

I really dislike people who intentionally ignore the context...Liverpool had a million injury and their last season form is unsustainable

we added 200m+ worth of talent and played worse

Don't be silly.  I really dislike people who exaggerate for effect, particularly when what they say is bollocks anyway.

Liverpool have had no more injuries than anyone else, the whole point is that they are 14 points and several league places worse off than last year so that is the entire contect.

£200 million in players is only of any benefit if those players have the basic skill of a footballer and could actually hit a cow's arse with a banjo.  Neither of which our most expensive purchases appear to be capable of doing.

1 hour ago, Imran_CFC said:

Why do you think the injuries did not impact them as much as they did to us?

Could it be that they've had a Manager in place for 5 years who has had the time to build a squad in his image and therefore can bring in players who understand the playing style and tactics without too big of an impact to the playing 11?

Because we dont have the best CB in the world torn his ACL and out for 7 months at least? They are affected by the injury no doubt about it, I am just disagree when people say 'Lampard is just 3 pt off last season and look at Klopp he is 14 pt off last season why should people go after Klopp' because this is a braindead arguement

We did spend 200m but we lost Willian and Pedro, getting Ziyech was the absolute minimum.

You could argue that our most impactful signing so far has been T.Silva which came for free...

2 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

Don't be silly.  I really dislike people who exaggerate for effect, particularly when what they say is bollocks anyway.

Liverpool have had no more injuries than anyone else, the whole point is that they are 14 points and several league places worse off than last year so that is the entire contect.

£200 million in players is only of any benefit if those players have the basic skill of a footballer and could actually hit a cow's arse with a banjo.  Neither of which our most expensive purchases appear to be capable of doing.

Their last season point tally is unsustainable stop trying to use this as an excuse and ask stupid question like 'oh why Klopp doing so much worse last season and no one question', because winning 26 games out of 27 is just absurd and no one should be expected to replicate this.

Liverpool has both of their CB injured and have to midfielder in CB, they may not have more injury numbers than others but the impact is too focused in one area which makes them weaker than last season.

If most of the 200m players dont have the ' basic skill of a footballer and could actually hit a cow's arse with a banjo' as you said, then the manager who strongly recommend the club to buy them has to take majority of responsibility isnt it? There are numerous report that Lampard pushed for Havertz so hard and involved in the Werner and Chilwell transfer, so he has to take the blame too 

33 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

Of course I don't mind.  I wasn't convinced by Michy, that's true and I still wait to be shown anything De Bruyne did in a blue shirt to warrant him getting a place over seasoned and very good internationals at the time.  My view was always that he didn't have the patience or the bottle to fight for a place and was basically pants when he got a chance, so he took the easy option - to our detriment, as it turned out, but anyone who says that he deserved a first team place with us is distorting the historical facts.

My opinion on Havertz was and is only a response to some googling twat who started with "Havertz is the best player in the squad and the whole team and tactics should be built around him" to which I said that nothing he had done in a Blue shirt indicated that or anything other than he was being played because of his price tag, and that he showed very little of the basic required skills of a footballer at any level.  The same idiot then kept posting stats, graphs and youtube videos of the player in his previous club in a different league playing in a different style, but which still didn't manage to show him trapping the ball, passing to a team mate or not losing the ball in dangerous areas costing us goals.  It may well be that he is a very good player, but wittering on about him being a "generational talent" (ie Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho level) is just stupidity based on what he's done in Blue.

Lamps should be given support and patience because we are only in a dip in form, we have only lost 6 matches this season, are only 11 points off the top which is better than the same stage last year, so yes, demands for his immediate sacking at this stage are short-sighted and, to my mind, a bit of knee-jerk glory-hunting.

You say so much with so little context. 11 points off top spot in a title race that at the moment is between 4 teams. This is not a season like last with a run away leader smashing many records in the process. Clutching at straws big time.

If Frank wants to convince the board that he knows what he is doing then he needs to show immediate simple improvements in certain areas from the Leicester match as the following were all there in that game.

1. That Corner. If the offensive team have two players involved in a short corner, the defending team need to have two players as well or you end up with what we saw.

2. That Corner. When Leicester scored Chelsea had 11 players in their own area, yes the entire team whilst Leicester had at least 4 outside the box including the goal scorer. No one was anywhere near Ndidi and even if Chelsea had won the ball, there is no one up field to play to and try and break away.

3. Pressing. Chelsea possibly fielded their youngest midfield and forwards yet the pressing was half hearted at best. Leicester found it all too easy to play the ball from the back forward to the midfield then square to the wide players who were running at pace they were away and by passing the Chelsea midfield. The Chelsea players should have been constantly pressurising them but they didn't.

4. Offensive Corners. When was the last time we saw a clever move or indeed any move from a corner. I know Chelsea have scored from a few headers but mostly the ball either gets floated into the area or is over hit so some variations would give the opposition something to think about. At the moment they know exactly what is coming.

5. Offensive Free kicks. Again when was the last time we saw a clever move from a free kick. I personally never believe that we are going to score direct from a free kick yet I see other teams knocking them in. Is no one practicing after training to become that free kick expert?

6. Defending throw-ins. I played Intermediate football when I was younger and we were drilled to have a man picking up the thrower so the he couldn't just throw the ball to a team mate and get it back. Why isn't that happening every time? We have to stop giving the opposition the chance to play and pressurise them into making mistakes.

7. Crosses. With CHO’s pace, why is he not being encouraged to take the defender on, get to the bye line then pull the ball back to a player coming into the box? If you watch many of Havertz’s goals last season, he was scoring when the ball was pulled back after the centre forward had pulled the defenders nearer to the goal. Instead, from wherever the cross is made, it is square or even diagonally forward and will have to pass so many defenders to reach a Chelsea player.

All of the above should be standard for any team and if the players are not doing it, the Coach should be reminding them from the touchline. Sadly we all know this is not happening.

I worry that if in training all of the above is not being practiced over and over again, how can things really get better if you can’t even do the basics right. We keep getting told that for the team to improve the players need to work harder but this should be a starting point, not a target to aim for.

I don’t see Frank being let go until we can’t get top 4 anymore so he’s here until at least the summer, and this includes whether performances improved but we still fail to get top 4. 

I think in my opinion the board is looking at this like a business (which we are) we invested £200 million what actual progress can you show us to warrant you to continue? If we miss too 4, last year we got top 4 this year we didn’t why is that? 
Why hasn’t the players we bought performed?
Telling us you played a few matches with nice football but missed the money pot doesn’t  help the bottom line. 
Biggest decision I personally think he now needs to make is, does he persist with possession based football or change to direct style. 
I get the feeling he will want to prove his methods work and persist with 4-3-3 possession based football. Fair play to him for not changing his principles. 

Hope he turns it around.

15 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

Against Fulham we started with a 4-3-3 and switched to a 4-4-2 in the latter part of the 2nd half, it was the same case in the FA Cup game. Against Leicester we didn't play 4-3-3 at any stage, we started with 4-2-3-1 and switched to 4-4-2 in the latter stages of the 2nd half.

He is clearly looking to change things and you can tell the coaching staff have started to explore other formations and tactics since they've had time over the last 2 weeks. I've heard a lot of noise about sticking with 4-3-3 etc. in the last 2 weeks whilst clearly ignoring the tactical changes in the last 3 games.

I'm not an old fart, but I'm also not a tactical hipster, yet for me 4231 is basically the same as 433.

Are we trying to press high and it's failing? Are we trying to utilise a number 10? What is the point of Kante? Kovacic? What does he want from Mount other than to "get in the box a bit more". Why is Havertz not being passed to. Why are we not releasing balls over the top to Werner? Why did Werner play out wide (is there a reason or was it because our wide players were injured) why does Giroud play some games and not others, is there any reason to it? Was the only reason Zouma was dropped actually because Rudiger is a bit more vocal/Lampard fancied a change? Are we deliberately crossing more than any other team or is that an accident?

I felt for all his faults, I could get this information from Sarri. I can get this information about Klopp, Pep, even arteta. I don't know where to find this about Lampard and whether it's random or deliberate. 

Also putting 2 strikers up top is what any 10 year old would think to do when you are chasing the game. I'm not buying that as the signs of someone with a tactical mind. 

 

2 hours ago, cfcforeverfan said:

I really dislike people who intentionally ignore the context...Liverpool had a million injury and their last season form is unsustainable

we added 200m+ worth of talent and played worse

So only liverpool have context? Not us, with new players trying to integrate during a season where games are crammed in and training is basically just keeping fitness up, having to try and keep players fresh therefore having to constantly swap players in and out? That doesnt matter?

Just now, bisright1 said:

I'm not an old fart, but I'm also not a tactical hipster, yet for me 4231 is basically the same as 433.

Are we trying to press high and it's failing? Are we trying to utilise a number 10? What is the point of Kante? Kovacic? What does he want from Mount other than to "get in the box a bit more". Why is Havertz not being passed to. Why are we not releasing balls over the top to Werner? Why did Werner play out wide (is there a reason or was it because our wide players were injured) why does Giroud play some games and not others, is there any reason to it? Was the only reason Zouma was dropped actually because Rudiger is a bit more vocal/Lampard fancied a change? Are we deliberately crossing more than any other team or is that an accident?

I felt for all his faults, I could get this information from Sarri. I can get this information about Klopp, Pep, even arteta. I don't know where to find this about Lampard and whether it's random or deliberate. 

Also putting 2 strikers up top is what any 10 year old would think to do when you are chasing the game. I'm not buying that as the signs of someone with a tactical mind. 

 

Big difference in 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 where either you've got a double Pivot or a Lone CDM, I don't get your point where firstly you state that Frank needs to try something different and when it's pointed out that he has tried different things in the last 3 games you completely dismiss it and criticize the change.

He has had the last 2 weeks with the squad where they've  potentially spent time on the training ground to try and alter the style of play since the start of December, you don't simply change tactic formation and expect everything to fall into place in the first game you look to execute the plan.

4 minutes ago, dkw said:

So only liverpool have context? Not us, with new players trying to integrate during a season where games are crammed in and training is basically just keeping fitness up, having to try and keep players fresh therefore having to constantly swap players in and out? That doesnt matter?

 Getting new players are voluntarily, if you are afraid of new players having to gel and integrate in a season that you know it before it start the games are crammed, maybe dont get so many players in? Compare to Liverpool while injury is involuntarily where it is unexpected and no way to avoid it.

 

15 minutes ago, Brutos said:

I don’t see Frank being let go until we can’t get top 4 anymore so he’s here until at least the summer, and this includes whether performances improved but we still fail to get top 4. 

I think in my opinion the board is looking at this like a business (which we are) we invested £200 million what actual progress can you show us to warrant you to continue? If we miss too 4, last year we got top 4 this year we didn’t why is that? 
Why hasn’t the players we bought performed?
Telling us you played a few matches with nice football but missed the money pot doesn’t  help the bottom line. 
Biggest decision I personally think he now needs to make is, does he persist with possession based football or change to direct style. 
I get the feeling he will want to prove his methods work and persist with 4-3-3 possession based football. Fair play to him for not changing his principles. 

Hope he turns it around.

as you said, he can be sacked once top 4 is no longer achievable, like how Moyes got sacked in United. So probably not until summer, maybe March

3 minutes ago, cfcforeverfan said:

 Getting new players are voluntarily, if you are afraid of new players having to gel and integrate in a season that you know it before it start the games are crammed, maybe dont get so many players in? Compare to Liverpool while injury is involuntarily where it is unexpected and no way to avoid it.

 

I wrote a few things but ive since deleted it because frankly your post is ridiculous 😂 

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

I wrote a few things but ive since deleted it because frankly your post is ridiculous 😂 

or you cant find a proper argument without bias?

Just now, cfcforeverfan said:

or you cant find a proper argument without bias?

Argue what? We shouldnt have bought anyone, oh no a team has an injury, no one else has injuries though right?

How the hell you talk about bias is beyond me. Your desperate to make out Liverpool have lost a full squad or something and anything that could have impacted on our season is insignificant anyway. 

49 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I think the person who was "criticising" was actually referring to others. But it's impossible to know because there's a million and one posts now. 

Think we all care about chelsea a bit! 

For me, I want to hear frank communicate to the fans what his style is. What is he trying to do and what isn't happening. Because I am tired of only hearing about "effort". Maybe I've missed the memo, but it seems to be a 433 and cross a lot. 

If I knew he was thinking in a style of play, I'd be prepared to be more patient. But we're all going round the houses. I completely get your opinion. 

As I understand its 4-3-3 deploying two number 8's, allowing players to play between the lines, my understanding of that isn't completely clear but what I do know is for it to show any fruits the play has to be a lot quicker. ie; Balls played into the likes of Havertz, Pulisic, mount etc from a "quarterback" figure ,deployed at CDM or CB of which we currently have neither. Of course the play is varied but it has to be quick ball so that our threatening players can front up the opposition defence before they can reshape, at the moment as im sure you're well aware its all far too slow.

I don't know bisright1, what I do know is that imcompletely f**ked off with all of it, id love to Frank get a break that's all.

11 minutes ago, dkw said:

Argue what? We shouldnt have bought anyone, oh no a team has an injury, no one else has injuries though right?

How the hell you talk about bias is beyond me. Your desperate to make out Liverpool have lost a full squad or something and anything that could have impacted on our season is insignificant anyway. 

no buying a few players is completely different from buying 6, when you decided to buy half of the first team you took the risk of they arent jelling and Lampard know beforehand the season is really packed and no preseason. So who made the wrong decision and suffer from it now?

While Liverpool lost every first team CB and have to put midfielder in CB position, where did we have such an injury crisis that have to put 2 player in their unnatural position? Dont give me Werner or Mount at the wing as an example because 1. Werner did play at the wing before and winger is still an attacking position compare to playing a midfield in the center back. 2. No logical Chelsea fan wants to see Mount at the wing and he isnt performing at the wing either, 3. at worst we only put 1 player out of the position instead of Liverpool need to constantly play at least 2 players out of their position at the CB

Edited January 21, 20215 yr by cfcforeverfan

9 minutes ago, Osgoodwasgood said:

As I understand its 4-3-3 deploying two number 8's, allowing players to play between the lines, my understanding of that isn't completely clear but what I do know is for it to show any fruits the play has to be a lot quicker. ie; Balls played into the likes of Havertz, Pulisic, mount etc from a "quarterback" figure ,deployed at CDM or CB of which we currently have neither. Of course the play is varied but it has to be quick ball so that our threatening players can front up the opposition defence before they can reshape, at the moment as im sure you're well aware its all far too slow.

I don't know bisright1, what I do know is that imcompletely f**ked off with all of it, id love to Frank get a break that's all.

Yeah. If I was in the ground i'd be singing his name. I'd love to see how we would play with a full crowd. Maybe all this cooped up trapped in house is making us all a bit mad. 

12 minutes ago, Osgoodwasgood said:

As I understand its 4-3-3 deploying two number 8's, allowing players to play between the lines, my understanding of that isn't completely clear but what I do know is for it to show any fruits the play has to be a lot quicker. ie; Balls played into the likes of Havertz, Pulisic, mount etc from a "quarterback" figure ,deployed at CDM or CB of which we currently have neither. Of course the play is varied but it has to be quick ball so that our threatening players can front up the opposition defence before they can reshape, at the moment as im sure you're well aware its all far too slow.

I don't know bisright1, what I do know is that imcompletely f**ked off with all of it, id love to Frank get a break that's all.

Yeah I agree. The sound of two free roaming no 8's sounds exciting, especially if its Mount and Havertz. If played right, we'd be absolutely devastating. I just wish the full backs would stay back for Christs sake, they are killing off the attacks. Let the midfielders and attackers do the job.

Lampard probably wants the full backs to support the attack but I feel they are making everything worse.

2 hours ago, cfcforeverfan said:

I really dislike people who intentionally ignore the context...Liverpool had a million injury and their last season form is unsustainable

we added 200m+ worth of talent and played worse

Are you having a laugh ? You go on about 'context',  you said we spent 200m, but forgot the context of why we had to spend that much in one window.

if he is to go soon, it's a real shame we waited until Poch was off the market - think he would have been great for this squad.

I don't fancy another defensive Italian coach or that Tuchel chap. Probably prefer we wait until summer and push for Red Bull manager or Southampton's.

4 hours ago, andy said:

I think I can clear this up (apologies for some spelling) 

2 Dec   Savilla 0 Chelsea 4 - great performance 

5 Dec   Chelsea 3  Leeds  1 - despite Leeds taking a lucky lead great performance 

8 Dec  Chelsea 1 Krasnacor 1   dicked around with the team as we had already qualified 

12  Dec  Everton 1  Chelsea 0   Shame, tough game away from home, should have done better

15  Dec  Wolves 2  Chelsea 1   Bad, starting to get a little worried about 2 matches in a row 

21   Dec  Chelsea 3 West Ham 0  Back at the bridge and looking good 

26  Dec  Arsenal 3 Chelsea 1   The dreaded away Christmas game Arsenal desperate for a result, we were poor 

28 Dec Chelsea 1 Aston Villa 1   Disappointing at home  

3 Jan   Chelsea 1  Man City 3    Again disappointing at home but City are rampant and clear title favorites now I believe that is the level we need to get too 

10 Jan  Chelsea 4 Morecome 0  Well ok 

16 Jan  Fulham 0 Chelsea 1  Away win nice and Fulham had improved of late

19 Jan  Everton 2 Chelsea 0   Away disappointing along with some bad luck and lackluster looking 

 

Okay it is not great but I count 5 losses and a draw we maybe could have hoped for better by now so that's the 6? , its called bad form, all teams suffer and there are some excellent results in there as well. We got to do better against the top 6 teams lets say. Not such a huge crime I think.  

That is a good assessment Andy. The bad run started with a couple of results (Everton and Wolves) where the games could have gone either way. Wolves especially was a disappointing one because we were in a winning position for a good chunk of the game. It was really the performance in the Arsenal game where the alarm bells rang, and we were embarrassed by a makeshift team that was more up for it than us. Since then our 2 defaults were both against teams that are in top form so much less surprising. If you look at the fixture list we have just come out of a pretty tricky run of games. While we haven't fared well at all, the next run of games offers an opportunity to put a better run together. If we can do that Frank still has a chance to steady the ship I think. However if we start dropping points in these games against lower teams the pressure on Frank will continue to mount. Then there is the small matter of the upcoming game against Spurs which could also go a long way to buying Frank time if the result is good, or scuttling him further if things don't go well.

 

Personally, if Lamps does go, I don't see it happening before the United game.

23 minutes ago, Adamrb said:

if he is to go soon, it's a real shame we waited until Poch was off the market - think he would have been great for this squad.

I don't fancy another defensive Italian coach or that Tuchel chap. Probably prefer we wait until summer and push for Red Bull manager or Southampton's.

Or maybe Frank can stay beyond summer?

22 minutes ago, Adamrb said:

if he is to go soon, it's a real shame we waited until Poch was off the market - think he would have been great for this squad.

I don't fancy another defensive Italian coach or that Tuchel chap. Probably prefer we wait until summer and push for Red Bull manager or Southampton's.

Agree with that. Would like Brendan Rodgers too but reckon wouldn't come until end of season. However he did jump ship quickly from celtic to city