16 minutes ago, Slojo said:

United should never have been in a position for scraping top 4 in the first place. They've spent nearly 1 billion since Ferguson retired. They have very well established fast paced players there, granted a lot of flops, every team has a good streak, we had ours earlier in the season and managed to stay in top 4 throughout all of it, United had theirs very late thanks to a late investment in Bruno and numerous penalty decisions. 

At least with Rodgers, he exceeded expectations, Leicester shouldn't have been in the top 4 in the first place. I can see why Rodgers is in the calling, Ole should be nowhere near it though, completely different circumstances. 

I'm with Deino, OGS didn't spend a billion and bringing in the unknown Fernandez (unknown in the EPL anyway) seems a masterstroke to me.

Of course it does not mean they will continue to do well next season. 

37 minutes ago, Slojo said:

United should never have been in a position for scraping top 4 in the first place. They've spent nearly 1 billion since Ferguson retired. They have very well established fast paced players there, granted a lot of flops, every team has a good streak, we had ours earlier in the season and managed to stay in top 4 throughout all of it, United had theirs very late thanks to a late investment in Bruno and numerous penalty decisions. 

At least with Rodgers, he exceeded expectations, Leicester shouldn't have been in the top 4 in the first place. I can see why Rodgers is in the calling, Ole should be nowhere near it though, completely different circumstances. 

I disagree. You are judging both managers on completely different standards.

Leicester have spent 100m in the summer window as well and have strengthened. It's not like Solskjaer was responsible for the transfer dealings and had a 100% fit squad throughout the year.

I judge managers on the season's performance overall. Every team has circumstances but it's not like the managers have no say on lineups, tactics and training. How can someone terribly dropped the ball despite having a huge points advantage even managed to be nominated as Manager of the Year? Leicester needed to win 1 more game ,in hindsight, and they failed massively.

 

55 minutes ago, Deino said:

I disagree. You are judging both managers on completely different standards.

Leicester have spent 100m in the summer window as well and have strengthened. It's not like Solskjaer was responsible for the transfer dealings and had a 100% fit squad throughout the year.

I judge managers on the season's performance overall. Every team has circumstances but it's not like the managers have no say on lineups, tactics and training. How can someone terribly dropped the ball despite having a huge points advantage even managed to be nominated as Manager of the Year? Leicester needed to win 1 more game ,in hindsight, and they failed massively.

 

Because they got a huge sum of money from the Maguire sale.... 

Thanks to United by the way, you're trying to make out as if OGS had the harder job, in no way shape or form did he have the harder job. He objectively had a better squad and better players at his disposal, them scraping top 4 shouldn't have been the case in the first place. Leicester had a big injury and had a bad restart, Rodgers still did a better job than OGS did. 

2 hours ago, Deino said:

Agree to disagree then.

I judge them on their team's performances. Prior to the restart they were midtable then pulled through by the end of the season. That takes guts.

To judge footballing teams based on the amount of transfers is something I don't agree with. It's not like we chose not to buy anyone but that we couldn't because of our own mistake. 

They did very well to eventually finish 3rd despite the first half of the season but they were also helped by Leicester's epic collapse, Chelsea's inconsistencies and Spurs decline which caused them to switch managers. Sheffield Utd and Wolves simply didn't have the squads to truly challenge for the top 4

You are right, teams shouldn't be solely judged on transfers but Utd spent almost 200 million on 3 first team players and 1 squad option. Not many teams in the League can afford to do that and big improvements should have been made from last season

Utd should have comfortably finished 3rd, OGS had already been at Utd for 6 months before this season so had plenty of time to prepare. They barely scrapped getting into the top 4 and had the exact same points total as last season. 

For me OGS has been pretty average overall at Utd and doesn't warrant a nomination for manager of the year

3 hours ago, Deino said:

Agree to disagree then.

I judge them on their team's performances. Prior to the restart they were midtable then pulled through by the end of the season. That takes guts.

To judge footballing teams based on the amount of transfers is something I don't agree with. It's not like we chose not to buy anyone but that we couldn't because of our own mistake. 

Even though I don't really know how to compare Rogers and Ole Gunnar (and I don't consider it worthy of my time because Klopp is getting the award anyway) I want to say that money spent can be a big factor because the more money you throw at something sooner or later it's going to get you some results in football.

It's IMO a great insight to say that we are the only ones to be blamed for not being able to sign anyone for a certain period (unless we simply blame the people that banned us) because it shows the ability to self-reflect, others don't need to stop buying just because we can't.
But if we are to be realistic here we didn't suffer from it because we actually got to sign Pulisic right before the transfer ban so that's pretty much like a signing that we actually made at the time when we were supposed to be banned and we also got to permanently sign Kovacic as well. If we then add those 2 players to the additions of Mount that basically came with Lampard in a package and then also Tammy and James we can in all fairness say that even though we had a transfer ban, at least 4 first team players have joined us anyway and most of them have played for the most part of the season and have been directly involved in the starting lineup.

The last time we outspent everyone else in the transfer market was in 2012 into 2013 season, and our highest transfer fee went to Lille for Hazard which cost us 32m and every single season since then other clubs have spent more than us, I don't think that it's a coincidence that Liverpool spending first on their front 3 and then later on their defense made them champions and we can simply observe right now how Man City after avoiding their ban already spent 60-70m on top of how much they have been spending ever since Pep joined them, what I'm trying to say is that it's no surprise that they are the top 2 teams and money did play a significant factor there (if you want to make the conclusion that Pep and Klopp wouldn't win the title if they haven't spent all that money I would agree).

Believe it or not but I have actually seen on reddit 1 argument against Chelsea that I found interesting because nobody before talked like that. Someone argued that it's overstated how we did so well because 1 transfer window ban doesn't suddenly make a top team so much bad, Chelsea is still rich and still has the resources to survive 1 transfer window and bla bla bla...some hater full of jelly.

So while I don't agree with that argument it's only fair to say that because we are a top club we could finally rely on our youth as we have a good setup, the ban, it didn't hurt us in the end but nobody will argue that we didn't need to spend for Werner and Ziyech, that money is well spent already because it turns out we signed them at the very moment when our 2 wingers are leaving the club and without that money spent I would think that Lampard would have a very tough time next season because in the modern game you simply need to spend, it's basically impossible for us to compete without signing new players, money matters and transfers matter. So maybe it's doable to take transfers and money into account as well, when comparing teams.

Edited August 8, 20205 yr by Gol15

Agree to disagree on the Rodgers vs Solskjaer debate. You won't convince me and I won't convince you. Let's just stop it.

---

Frank was terrible tonight. The players didn't repay his faith and he should have hooked all of them by half time.

 

I quite like Franks manager shirt. It'd be even better minus the Nike tick

4 hours ago, Deino said:

Agree to disagree on the Rodgers vs Solskjaer debate. You won't convince me and I won't convince you. Let's just stop it.

---

Frank was terrible tonight. The players didn't repay his faith and he should have hooked all of them by half time.

 

Lol.. replace with whom? The first team was struggling and putting on kids would have meant a cricket score and damaged their morale.. 

25 minutes ago, Jangz said:

Lol.. replace with whom? The first team was struggling and putting on kids would have meant a cricket score and damaged their morale.. 

Bayern winning 4-1 without even playing their best is just as morale damaging. It was embarassing that their 19yr old player was forced to leave because of cramp. Why? Because he ran so much.

Our LB on the other hand barely ran at all. The gulf in class was huge.

Is this even correct?

1 hour ago, Brutos said:

 

 

Is this even correct?

 

Why wouldn't it be? We have the worst defense we've had in decades. 

What do you think about lamps comment about Havertz are the game "wouldn’t expect anything, I wouldn’t expect (Havertz joins Chelsea). But as I say, it’s our job to go away and see what happens and see if we can improve." 

I think he knows Marina very well and he knows she can be as stubborn as a mule. She makes either great or really bad decisions on the market but thankfully with accuracy of let's say something like 50% and consider the law of big numbers(in that case the number of transfers we make as a big club)  we only mention the good things. But we have some unexplainable buyings and some strange foldings. Kai Havertz will probably end up in the second category labeled as a great missing opportunity. 

Edited August 9, 20205 yr by Droopy

57 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

Why wouldn't it be? We have the worst defense we've had in decades. 

All the comparing this manager against that one or this player against that other one and even the talk of how much money available to spend compared to another club make me sick. Point out something bleeping obvious and the "true fans" will criticise you, bay for your blood and hang you on a stake. 

Whilst we can look at aspects of the season and commend Frank and his team, overall its been an underwhelming performance because in my opinion a manager that we had last season ridiculed and laughed at every turn or action did better. Legend or not, doing things the way he is without regard to the basics will get him nowhere. 

From another some here will call "not a true Chelsea fan" pointed out elsewhere; The accepted and easy to dig out narrative of 'the players aren't good enough' simply isn't true. Sarri had Azpilicueta, Rudiger, Christensen and Emerson/Alonso as his back four and the first three of those names all played 30+ league games, while Kepa played 37 league games, and Chelsea had the third best defence in the league last year. Lampard naively dismantled the protection to the back four Chelsea had with the three man midfield of Kante, Jorginho and Kovacic to be more open and attacking, and the direct result was conceding 79 goals in all competitions this season. 

2 minutes ago, abister1 said:

All the comparing this manager against that one or this player against that other one and even the talk of how much money available to spend compared to another club make me sick. Point out something bleeping obvious and the "true fans" will criticise you, bay for your blood and hang you on a stake. 

Whilst we can look at aspects of the season and commend Frank and his team, overall its been an underwhelming performance because in my opinion a manager that we had last season ridiculed and laughed at every turn or action did better. Legend or not, doing things the way he is without regard to the basics will get him nowhere. 

From another some here will call "not a true Chelsea fan" pointed out elsewhere; The accepted and easy to dig out narrative of 'the players aren't good enough' simply isn't true. Sarri had Azpilicueta, Rudiger, Christensen and Emerson/Alonso as his back four and the first three of those names all played 30+ league games, while Kepa played 37 league games, and Chelsea had the third best defence in the league last year. Lampard naively dismantled the protection to the back four Chelsea had with the three man midfield of Kante, Jorginho and Kovacic to be more open and attacking, and the direct result was conceding 79 goals in all competitions this season. 

Funnily enough I agree with you. I am one of seemingly the insane minority who preferred how we played football last year to this. I don't like the feeling of my arsehole clenching every time we give away the ball. Last year our football made sense, I felt we were improving as the season went on. 

I feel flat today. Aside from transfers, i don't have much optimism that we are going in the right direction under Frank. I feel we've got worse not better in possession and defence. I want Frank to turn this around and I hope a few weeks away and some new transfers is all that is needed. 

When I said defence I meant in its entirety. Manager, system, everything. 

 

1 hour ago, Bluesince66 said:

What do you think about lamps comment about Havertz are the game "wouldn’t expect anything, I wouldn’t expect (Havertz joins Chelsea). But as I say, it’s our job to go away and see what happens and see if we can improve." 

I think the emphasis was on expect. 

He hopes to improve the squad, but by committing to saying he expects to bring in players for big money like Havertz, it can only lead to discord should moves fail to go through. 

He is a clever guy, he chooses his words wisely. 

He wouldnt say he expects to beat a wolves or leicester at home, even if that is the reality. 

 

48 minutes ago, abister1 said:

All the comparing this manager against that one or this player against that other one and even the talk of how much money available to spend compared to another club make me sick. Point out something bleeping obvious and the "true fans" will criticise you, bay for your blood and hang you on a stake. 

Whilst we can look at aspects of the season and commend Frank and his team, overall its been an underwhelming performance because in my opinion a manager that we had last season ridiculed and laughed at every turn or action did better. Legend or not, doing things the way he is without regard to the basics will get him nowhere. 

From another some here will call "not a true Chelsea fan" pointed out elsewhere; The accepted and easy to dig out narrative of 'the players aren't good enough' simply isn't true. Sarri had Azpilicueta, Rudiger, Christensen and Emerson/Alonso as his back four and the first three of those names all played 30+ league games, while Kepa played 37 league games, and Chelsea had the third best defence in the league last year. Lampard naively dismantled the protection to the back four Chelsea had with the three man midfield of Kante, Jorginho and Kovacic to be more open and attacking, and the direct result was conceding 79 goals in all competitions this season. 

We had to be more open and attacking, we lost our game changer with no chance to replace him, had we played the cautious possession football Sarri did (or counter football Mou did) without Hazard we'd have been lucky to get 50 goals (and even that projected prediction is due to the fact Pulisic exploded at the business end).

Even with the attacking tactics we still hugely struggled against low blocks whenever one of Pulisic or CHO weren't on form, sometimes even when they were, imagine how badly it would have worked out if we were largely relying on our front 3 without Eden to find a way to break them, I'd dread to think how many games we would have gone without a goal at some points.

You say it's an underwhelming performance but no one expected us to be top four this season, infact people kept saying they would have widely accepted 10th aslong as youth were playing and there was some positive encouragement of a potential end product, as it happened we got both of them along with 4th.

In an attacking sense, for me CHO wasn't anything more than a fringe player and I acknowledge injuries limited his chances, Pulisic was impressive in the second half of the season and Willian was good for most of the season.

Mount was also important for most of the season.

 

 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Argo said:

We had to be more open and attacking, we lost our game changer with no chance to replace him, had we played the cautious possession football Sarri did (or counter football Mou did) without Hazard we'd have been lucky to get 50 goals (and even that projected prediction is due to the fact Pulisic exploded at the business end).

Even with the attacking tactics we still hugely struggled against low blocks whenever one of Pulisic or CHO weren't on form, sometimes even when they were, imagine how badly it would have worked out if we were largely relying on our front 3 without Eden to find a way to break them, I'd dread to think how many games we would have gone without a goal at some points.

You say it's an underwhelming performance but no one expected us to be top four this season, infact people kept saying they would have widely accepted 10th aslong as youth were playing and there was some positive encouragement of a potential end product, as it happened we got both of them along with 4th.

I think the point about us having to be open is well made. Same with the high press. We needed it because goals were going to be hard to come by otherwise.

I for one am hoping that with some new attacking verve we might not see too many games where we have two players behind the ball which we did constantly this season.

That won't help us in games like last night though. Defensive structure was non existent despite us having 30 percent of the ball.

18 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

In an attacking sense, for me CHO wasn't anything more than a fringe player and I acknowledge injuries limited his chances, Pulisic was impressive in the second half of the season and Willian was good for most of the season.

Mount was also important for most of the season.

 

 

 

 

 

Pulisic has been impressive all season whenever he's played, not just the restart. 

36 minutes ago, Argo said:

We had to be more open and attacking, we lost our game changer with no chance to replace him, had we played the cautious possession football Sarri did (or counter football Mou did) without Hazard we'd have been lucky to get 50 goals (and even that projected prediction is due to the fact Pulisic exploded at the business end).

Even with the attacking tactics we still hugely struggled against low blocks whenever one of Pulisic or CHO weren't on form, sometimes even when they were, imagine how badly it would have worked out if we were largely relying on our front 3 without Eden to find a way to break them, I'd dread to think how many games we would have gone without a goal at some points.

You say it's an underwhelming performance but no one expected us to be top four this season, infact people kept saying they would have widely accepted 10th aslong as youth were playing and there was some positive encouragement of a potential end product, as it happened we got both of them along with 4th.

Fully agree, but if we're into next season and we're still conceding the same number of goals, questions have to be asked if Frank is the right man for the job. The defence has to be fixed, we can't win trophies with that backline no matter if we had Ronaldo or Messi in their primes up top. 

We have conceded the most goals in the top 10, it's not good enough. And we're still so vulnerable to set pieces, it hasn't changed all season. 

56 minutes ago, big blue said:

I think the emphasis was on expect. 

He hopes to improve the squad, but by committing to saying he expects to bring in players for big money like Havertz, it can only lead to discord should moves fail to go through. 

He is a clever guy, he chooses his words wisely. 

He wouldnt say he expects to beat a wolves or leicester at home, even if that is the reality. 

 

Hope your right big blue 👍

2 hours ago, bisright1 said:

Why wouldn't it be? We have the worst defense we've had in decades. 

The worst net defeat is Arsenal who conceded 8, we conceded 7.

Of course nothing to be proud of.

Haven’t seen a pre-season thread but does anyone know when it starts?

The league starts in a month, so I guess players will go on holiday for no more than two weeks, right?

20 hours ago, Deino said:

Agree to disagree then.

I judge them on their team's performances. Prior to the restart they were midtable then pulled through by the end of the season. That takes guts.

To judge footballing teams based on the amount of transfers is something I don't agree with. It's not like we chose not to buy anyone but that we couldn't because of our own mistake. 

Wasn't he in charge of the team that was midtable prior to restart? Whose fault was it that they were struggling? Given the money spent and the squad he had at his disposal, OGS was expected to finish in the top four so I'd say he did as well as expected but that's it.

Frank, on the other hand, clearly overachieved given all the issues he had to deal with. And since we're comparing managers, it makes no difference why we couldn't spend money and upgrade our team and United could, the fact of the matter is, Ole had that advantage while Frank had to make do with what he'd inherited from previous managers, not to mention Hazard's departure. 

Here's a scenario. Who's United's best player? Let's say it's Pogba. Imagine they sold him last summer and haven't signed anyone since then. No Maguire, no Wan-Bissaka, no Bruno. Would you think they'd have finished third as they did? I think it's highly unlikely. So I strongly disagree with the notion that transfers shouldn't be taken into account when you judge teams, it's hugely important and makes a big difference.

Edited August 9, 20205 yr by abramovich