48 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

When looking Havertz has 1 goal and 1 assist and my nan would have scored that goal. Just showing what happens when you look at stats in deeper detail. 

Kai is one of best young players in the world but cheers to your nan. 

1 goal, 2 assists means that he's matching Mount even while playing almost 2 full games less than him.

He's only 21 years old, if we see the big picture Kai had a decent start for us and we wouldn't be worse with him playing, Kai scored his first hat-trick for us in less than 3 full weeks being at the club and without a pre-season, now you will go into details and say but but it's was only Barnsley and your nan would have scored 3 goals too, yes well good for her but fact is without Kai we wouldn't win that game with such a big margin. 

I mean yorkeyblue said that I'm just saying stuff without offering any proof, and I already knew that he would brush off anything good that Kai did and I pointed it out that it wouldn't really matter if I did or not because most people won't change their opinion anyway and that's exactly what happened, he didn't even read my full post I guarantee it.

If you just want to think that he hasn't shown anything then why ask for some evidence that point to the opposite of your pre-made and written-in-stone opinion that won't change no matter what, be blind you're free to do so... I don't understand this way of interacting, "I know you can show me something that will prove that I'm wrong and I'm already waiting for it so that I can just brush it off".

Was very excited with the Havertz signing and I have no doubt that he will come good, but even before his COVID break, have to admit to being completely underwhelmed.

He is only 21 and we probably have to allow for the fact that some players, especially younger ones can take longer to adapt to a new team, new league, different country etc. That's why I think it is right for him to be rotated. Sod the big transfer fee - you have to earn your place in the starting 11 and I am sure he will, but right now he is not a nailed on starter. Ziyech has already shown more in my opinion, although admittedly wasn't great yesterday.  

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by Nibs

41 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Was very excited with the Havertz signing and I have no doubt that he will come good, but even before his COVID break, have to admit to being completely underwhelmed.

He is only 21 and we probably have to allow for the fact that some players, especially younger ones can take longer to adapt to a new team, new league, different country etc. That's why I think it is right for him to be rotated. Sod the big transfer fee - you have to earn your place in the starting 11 and I am sure he will, but right now he is not a nailed on starter. Ziyech has already shown more in my opinion, although admittedly wasn't great yesterday.  

Agreed Nibs. I think he's struggled with the increase in pace and the better, tighter defences. Has largely floated in and out of games. 

Mount doing a Drogba at the moment. In comes the big name signing and Mason has lifted his game to another level. Up to Kai to win back a role in the 11.

I think some people need to chill, they literally think because one players form wasn't outstanding at a given point and how dare someone might make a comment on that then you automatically think his sh*t, no one has said that. 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Kai is one of best young players in the world but cheers to your nan. 

1 goal, 2 assists means that he's matching Mount even while playing almost 2 full games less than him.

He's only 21 years old, if we see the big picture Kai had a decent start for us and we wouldn't be worse with him playing, Kai scored his first hat-trick for us in less than 3 full weeks being at the club and without a pre-season, now you will go into details and say but but it's was only Barnsley and your nan would have scored 3 goals too, yes well good for her but fact is without Kai we wouldn't win that game with such a big margin. 

I mean yorkeyblue said that I'm just saying stuff without offering any proof, and I already knew that he would brush off anything good that Kai did and I pointed it out that it wouldn't really matter if I did or not because most people won't change their opinion anyway and that's exactly what happened, he didn't even read my full post I guarantee it.

If you just want to think that he hasn't shown anything then why ask for some evidence that point to the opposite of your pre-made and written-in-stone opinion that won't change no matter what, be blind you're free to do so... I don't understand this way of interacting, "I know you can show me something that will prove that I'm wrong and I'm already waiting for it so that I can just brush it off".

I dont often say this, actually not sure I ever have lol but I agree with everything @yorkleyblue has said. You dont really offer any evidence, how do you know we don't beat a poor championship team with players missing by the same margin without Havertz. Tbh if that's what we use these days to judge someones form then that's really poor.

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by Ernie_blue

4 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

I dont often say this, actually not sure I ever have lol but I agree with everything @yorkleyblue has said. You dont really offer any evidence, how do you know we don't beat a poor championship team with players missing by the same margin without Havertz. Tbh if that's what we use these days to judge someones form then that's really poor.

You're free to think that Havertz never showed anything despite the fact that it's just bollox, I don't really care because I presented what he did which isn't nothing, it's something comparable to some of our best players like Mount. What did you present? Never mind.

16 hours ago, PhilH930 said:

Is it 2 or 3 times?  Can't be both.

Would encourage you to closely watch his positional play and movement - that is timing that few in our squad have, and at the top level, can often be the difference.  We benefit from this and he deserves time to show that.  To be fair, the start of the season (fitness), new country and league, plus covid, only make the situation all the more promising to me.

I do agree with you that it is hard to drop Kovacic, and personally I rate Mount very high.  But they can rotate - I would sit Mount for a game and give Kai a chance.  One thing we do lack is goals from midfield, and Kai can help change this.

Critical bit is the word "OR", mate.  Explicitly states that it isn't both. I just haven't seen anything as yet from him in a Blue shirt to justify any schoolkids stating as if it was gospel written in stone that he is "one of our best players", regardless of how much google-stats they copy and paste relating to random other players in different leagues, in different teams under totally different circumstances.

I don't disagree that he needs time to settle in, and may well turn out to be our best ever player, ever, but he has done nothing yet for us to make me say that he is that already.  A simple tap-in against a mid-table team doesn't quite do it for me when that stats boy starts comparing him to proper, proven goal-scorers.

16 hours ago, Slojo said:

He obviously hasn't shown signs he's worth the price tag but he's barely played and he's still very young. Give him some time to adjust first. But Lampard definitely rates him, the only reason he isn't playing was due to Covid and getting back into fitness, before that he was always starting games. 

And, in response to the bold bit, was nearly always looking off the pace and out of his depth, directly responsible for us losing at least 2 goals by just being a bit pants in a dangerous area. 

That said, I'd be more than ecstatic for the lad to turn out to be our Zidane/Messi/Maradona/Nobby Stiles, but I was just saying I haven't seen any proof of that yet, and some twat copy and pasting stats from Whoscored about how well he played in the Aachen under-11's league at the age of 10 doesn't convince me yet,

We have had so many new shiny latest greatest player on earth signings over the recent years that I want to actually see that amazing talent on the pitch in the Blue, rather than what google tells me.

TBH, we all got excited about Oscar and Pato at the time.  That ended well.

19 hours ago, Gol15 said:

He's one of our best players, if not for the virus that he caught he wouldn't even go out of the starting lineup in the first place.

 

I think the issue with you Gol15, and let's face it we get on a lot better now than we did last season, but you go straight for hyperbole. This used to wind me up last season, for example, Gilmour had one great game against Liverpool last season and you were bringing up Paul Scholes comparisons. 

By the way, I do kind of agree with you, a fully fit Kai should be starting and playing over Kovacic in this system. Kovacic should play certain games like the Spurs game and rotation means. But Kai hasn't done enough to prove he's one of our best players. This is where Yorkley is right even though I disagree with most of his comments regarding Kai. Havertz has a lot to prove until he's one of our best players. I at times think I'm jumping the gun saying Pulisic is one of our best or best, but I say that after he's had such a great first season here. 

5 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

And, in response to the bold bit, was nearly always looking off the pace and out of his depth, directly responsible for us losing at least 2 goals by just being a bit pants in a dangerous area. 

That said, I'd be more than ecstatic for the lad to turn out to be our Zidane/Messi/Maradona/Nobby Stiles, but I was just saying I haven't seen any proof of that yet, and some twat copy and pasting stats from Whoscored about how well he played in the Aachen under-11's league at the age of 10 doesn't convince me yet,

We have had so many new shiny latest greatest player on earth signings over the recent years that I want to actually see that amazing talent on the pitch in the Blue, rather than what google tells me.

TBH, we all got excited about Oscar and Pato at the time.  That ended well.

I would agree but he's a young player in a new league. If we signed a 27 year old from Barcelona, for that price and he was giving the ball away in those areas he would definitely receive more criticism. It's a new league and he's only what 21 still? Very young. 

For me he's shown some promise here, I like what I see, going forward at times he looks extremely dangerous. But I can't really make a fair assessment until he's had more games, right now he just hasn't played enough. But I do agree with you to an extent, the "He's our best player" comment is over the top, he hasn't done enough to prove that. 

10 minutes ago, Slojo said:

and he was giving the ball away in those areas he would definitely receive more criticism. It's a new league and he's only what 21 still? Very young. 

Just look at the coating Christensen (and Tomori, to a lesser extent) got when they did something similar.  Christensen has never been forgiven by some of the more FM2020 experts in here.

14 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

............................. but I was just saying I haven't seen any proof of that yet, and some twat copy and pasting stats from Whoscored about how well he played in the Aachen under-11's league at the age of 10 doesn't convince me yet,

 

Says it all and very well said too imo.

Cheers @Paddy

42 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I think the issue with you Gol15, and let's face it we get on a lot better now than we did last season, but you go straight for hyperbole. This used to wind me up last season, for example, Gilmour had one great game against Liverpool last season and you were bringing up Paul Scholes comparisons. 

By the way, I do kind of agree with you, a fully fit Kai should be starting and playing over Kovacic in this system. Kovacic should play certain games like the Spurs game and rotation means. But Kai hasn't done enough to prove he's one of our best players. This is where Yorkley is right even though I disagree with most of his comments regarding Kai. Havertz has a lot to prove until he's one of our best players. I at times think I'm jumping the gun saying Pulisic is one of our best or best, but I say that after he's had such a great first season here. 

He said that Kai hasn't done anything, which is why I said that's bollocks and it really is a horrible take no matter how you look at it. For someone that has actually created goals and scored and also casually scored a hat-trick Kai already showed a lot in just a couple of games. 

Some just want to invent problems where there are none, you can argue that the expectations are much higher when it comes to Havertz but that's a totally different thing compared to a total rubbish take of "he hasn't shown anything at all".

If we take in count his age, lack of pre season and the fact that in some games Lampard used him in a wrong way, meaning if we look at the big picture, Kai has done well so far.

Kante went on a few games without doing anything, Jorginho missed a few penalties, Werner missed a few clear cut chances, Ziyech went missing against Spurs, T.Silva made a blunder and so did Chilwell... Still it's easy to see just how much all of them bring every game, Kai also had a blunder and had at least one more risky pass when he came deeper but that's nothing compared to his full impact.

51 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He said that Kai hasn't done anything, which is why I said that's bollocks and it really is a horrible take no matter how you look at it. For someone that has actually created goals and scored and also casually scored a hat-trick Kai already showed a lot in just a couple of games. 

Some just want to invent problems where there are none, you can argue that the expectations are much higher when it comes to Havertz but that's a totally different thing compared to a total rubbish take of "he hasn't shown anything at all".

If we take in count his age, lack of pre season and the fact that in some games Lampard used him in a wrong way, meaning if we look at the big picture, Kai has done well so far.

Kante went on a few games without doing anything, Jorginho missed a few penalties, Werner missed a few clear cut chances, Ziyech went missing against Spurs, T.Silva made a blunder and so did Chilwell... Still it's easy to see just how much all of them bring every game, Kai also had a blunder and had at least one more risky pass when he came deeper but that's nothing compared to his full impact.

I do agree. I think he's looked good, he had a stinker of a debut but after that he picked himself up and he's been playing well in the small sample of games he's been in, about 7 or 8 is it? But it's also not enough to say he's one of our best players. 

Made a stupid mistake in that Southampton game but came and got the goal and he was very good in that game despite that mistake. 

The reasonable take is that we just haven't seen enough to really confirm whether he's good or bad. He's made some mistakes, but he's also had some moments of class where he looks top drawer. 

Got to give it time. 

Edited December 1, 20205 yr by Slojo

No one has said Havertz was sh*t. Obviously everybody wants him to succeed but why change the team when we’re doing really well? 

Havertz will be our long term starter but right now I would integrate him back into first team slowly rather than putting him straight back in.

Abit like what we did with Pulisic, that worked a treat as he genuinely looked like a world class player towards the end of season. Give Havertz starts in european and cup matches, see how he does and he can force himself back into first team.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Kante went on a few games without doing anything, Jorginho missed a few penalties, Werner missed a few clear cut chances, Ziyech went missing against Spurs, T.Silva made a blunder and so did Chilwell... Still it's easy to see just how much all of them bring every game, Kai also had a blunder and had at least one more risky pass when he came deeper but that's nothing compared to his full impact.

And the simple differences is that no-one is claiming any of them to be "one of our best players" based on very little game time and even less evidence.

Just now, dansubrosa said:

No one has said Havertz was sh*t. Obviously everybody wants him to succeed but why change the team when we’re doing really well? 

Havertz will be our long term starter but right now I would integrate him back into first team slowly rather than putting him straight back in.

Abit like what we did with Pulisic, that worked a treat as he genuinely looked like a world class player towards the end of season. Give Havertz starts in european and cup matches, see how he does and he can force himself back into first team.

We were playing well with Havertz in the side though, everyone will tell you I'm a big fan of Kovacic but even I'll admit Havertz does a lot better in the system than Kovacic does. Because he offers a better attacking threat. The midfield of Mount-Kante-Havertz with Ziyech dropping deep is a very deadly side. Although Kovacic was very good in Kai's role against Sheffield. 

Still, I wouldn't blame Lampard for slotting him right back in the side. He's our big signing and Lampard wants him to gel for obvious reasons, I expect to see him starting both games this week. 

 

Kai tend to start slow ish to season's anyway, even last season he didn't properly explode until after Christmas.

Add that to starting the season in a unsettled team while being shoved from pillar to post position wise (he played four different positions in our first four league games) and then contracting Covid as soon as it looked like he was settling in one position it's no surprise he's had such a slow start for us.

20 minutes ago, Argo said:

Kai tend to start slow ish to season's anyway, even last season he didn't properly explode until after Christmas.

Add that to starting the season in a unsettled team while being shoved from pillar to post position wise (he played four different positions in our first four league games) and then contracting Covid as soon as it looked like he was settling in one position it's no surprise he's had such a slow start for us.

That may well be a perfectly logical explanation for his performances so far, but then it even more undermines some google-experts claim that he is "one of our best players". 

Your best players don't only get started playing half-way through a season, if what you say about "even last season he didn't properly explode until after Christmas"

 

And he didn't really play 4 different positions in 4  matches - he was always across a midfield in some way or another.

31 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

That may well be a perfectly logical explanation for his performances so far, but then it even more undermines some google-experts claim that he is "one of our best players". 

Your best players don't only get started playing half-way through a season, if what you say about "even last season he didn't properly explode until after Christmas"

 

And he didn't really play 4 different positions in 4  matches - he was always across a midfield in some way or another.

Against Brighton he played on the right wing, against Liverpool he played up top as a false 9 & after that he played as a Number 10 for a run of games before we shifted to a 4-3-3.

I personally feel that he is raw potential at the minute and has that lazy elegance about him which can make you look like a Rolls Royce of a footballer when you are doing well and an absolute liability when you are not.

With Chelsea so far he has had moments which tell me he is going to be a truly great player for us, a few of those moments include him getting out of very tight spots whilst getting pressed and another being him providing an incredible layoff for Werner on the break which was perfectly timed and placed which was well saved by the keeper (This is something Barkley has messed up 9 times out of 10 during his tenure with us).

That is all we have at the minute, some moments. I am sure he will get minutes against Sevilla and Leeds to work his way back into our team but we shouldn't expect him to start over Kovacic just simply because he is fit. We either need to see that Kova's performance levels have dropped or alternatively Kai performs well in the minutes he gets given that it becomes obvious we need to start him but at the minute I would not automatically start him ahead of Kova.

2 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

And the simple differences is that no-one is claiming any of them to be "one of our best players" based on very little game time and even less evidence.

If this means that we are to come to a point where nobody is to be judged yet since it has been only 10+ games I'm ok with that and I take back what I said.

But Kai is much more closer to being among our best players than not showing absolutely anything, for that there is more than enough evidence. I have read people here praising all the players that I have mentioned and it would be a real debate about who actually is our best signing so far because the increase of quality that we got with all our new players has been very evident.
I believe that the one place where we didn't need to strengthen is our midfield so there the difference in quality isn't that evident which doesn't go in the favor of Havertz when we see that Mount and Kovacic have been great players for us, in comparison there is a huge difference from Alonso/Emerson to Chilwell, from Christensen to T.Silva, from Willian to Ziyech, Kepa to Mendy.

 

 

His first start since late October lol

3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

 

 

His first start since late October lol

The kid is class. The weight and control of his passes is sublime. 

I can't decide which among Havertz, Kova, Pulisic and Ziyech has better technique. 

Struggling a bit to settle in , looks a confidence player hopefully he will get some soon.