7 hours ago, just said:

We will have to agree to disagree Fargo. Werner's touch and control is very poor compared to players like Mount and Havertz IMO.

Which makes me question, what were the scouts thinking when they saw werners touch and control! I didn't follow Werner in dortmund but surely ball control should have being a very important component.

25 minutes ago, Gentian said:

Which makes me question, what were the scouts thinking when they saw werners touch and control! I didn't follow Werner in dortmund but surely ball control should have being a very important component.

The only metric they analyse is goals scored. I can forgive the scouts on Werner because he does have attributes to succeed in a certain system but it was evident he would struggle most of the time in the PL based on the vast differences between the Bundesliga. 

Lukaku however is unforgivable. My nan knew it wouldn't work. 

13 hours ago, Gentian said:

Which makes me question, what were the scouts thinking when they saw werners touch and control! I didn't follow Werner in dortmund but surely ball control should have being a very important component.

I think none of us did. As he played for Leipzig. 😅

12 hours ago, Night-T said:

I think none of us did. As he played for Leipzig. 😅

Oh yeah. My bad lol. I hope for our sake and his the performances continue improving. 

Another game where he runs about a bit, has little impact and hardly bothers the keeper.

Kezman MK II. Sell, sell, sell.

9 hours ago, just said:

Another game where he runs about a bit, has little impact and hardly bothers the keeper.

Kezman MK II. Sell, sell, sell.

I thought he played well. Nothing to say really, I can just repeat my old post over and over again. 

Edited April 29, 20224 yr by Bob stark

1 minute ago, Bob stark said:

I thought he played well. Nothing to say really, I can just repeat my post over and over again

Firstly Bob, what, specifically, did he do well? And please, please don't say movement or running.

Secondly, what was he brought for?

Certainly is an eye opener when you try to imagine us playing Luis Diaz or even Sancho instead of Werner.

We need to sell him and find a proper winger. One that can actually control the ball.

41 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

Certainly is an eye opener when you try to imagine us playing Luis Diaz or even Sancho instead of Werner.

We need to sell him and find a proper winger. One that can actually control the ball.

He was playing CF though, he has been since the Southampton game. Thats why there are no more excuses for him.

Sell him and bring back Broja. Broja might be too early but hes still better than Werner and if we loan him again we might lose him.

18 hours ago, just said:

Another game where he runs about a bit, has little impact and hardly bothers the keeper.

Kezman MK II. Sell, sell, sell.

I have tried to stick up for Werner and initially liked his effort and enthusiasm and just thought he was unlucky.

But no-one is THAT unlucky. Last night he was hopeless. Did nothing of note and in fact more often than not just got in the way. Would have subbed him before half-time.

He has to go.

Season to date, all comps :

Timo is the best at the club for goals per 90 and mins per goal (same thing really) and his chance conversion % is significantly better than Havertz, Lukaku and Mount.

 

5 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Season to date, all comps :

Timo is the best at the club for goals per 90 and mins per goal (same thing really) and his chance conversion % is significantly better than Havertz, Lukaku and Mount.

 

40 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Season to date, all comps :

Timo is the best at the club for goals per 90 and mins per goal (same thing really) and his chance conversion % is significantly better than Havertz, Lukaku and Mount.

 

Goals against Southampton don't count!

You can put up as many stats as you want. I go with what me eyes tell me and my eyes tell me he is f**king hopeless!

1 minute ago, Nibs said:

Goals against Southampton don't count!

You can put up as many stats as you want. I go with what me eyes tell me and my eyes tell me he is f**king hopeless!

You wear glasses, just saying.

5 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Goals against Southampton don't count!

You can put up as many stats as you want. I go with what me eyes tell me and my eyes tell me he is f**king hopeless!

Interesting though isn't it ! LOL

Most of his stat padding has been in the Champions League.

2 hours ago, Nibs said:

I have tried to stick up for Werner and initially liked his effort and enthusiasm and just thought he was unlucky.

But no-one is THAT unlucky. Last night he was hopeless. Did nothing of note and in fact more often than not just got in the way. Would have subbed him before half-time.

He has to go.

Err excuse me. Some of us are, 37 times I've used the line 'Your face or yours' to twin sisters. Not once have I scored. What are the odds?

11 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Goals against Southampton don't count!

You can put up as many stats as you want. I go with what me eyes tell me and my eyes tell me he is f**king hopeless!

It's why I sometimes don't bother with "stats" when said player constantly fails the eye test. CHO fits into that category as well. 

Evident both Lukaku and Werner need to be improved on next season. 

It's pretty much the same debate on here regarding Timo. All I'll say is if we had a player who actually tried to play him through when he makes his runs he would get even more chances. Before we signed him anyone who knew the player was aware he needed a few chances per game to score. 

In this team some games he does in fact get a few chances but most of the time he is starved of service. It's the same with Lukaku he might not be helpful in buildup aside from be used as a target man to hold up the ball and let players bounce the ball off. But, yet again like Timo he wants the ball early in transition and he just doesn't get it. 

For all the lack of finishing in the squad there is a serious creativity issue, forwards are starved of service therefore have to make their own chances, usually against a low block it really isn't hard to see why some have failed to meet such lofty expectations. 

The same ones who think Timo is trash will be wondering why if or when he moves he suddenly looks like a top player. If he played for Pep, Klopp, Don Carlo or any other elite manager that actually has a midfield that can play through balls he would score more goals. 

As frustrating as people may find him stats don't lie he scorers or assists on average 1/2 games which really isn't that bad.

To be elite in this league means to take chances, half chances sure we've come to expect that level of play. Yet players like Benzema and Lewandowski have teams built to service them, can anyone really say our system is built to provide for Timo, Lukaku or even Havertz to a lesser extent and even if you do think it is, can you say that it's working? 

Havertz imo is the only one of our strikers who I see the whole team actively looking to get on the ball, Timo's and Rom's central runs are ignored a lot more often compared to Kai's. 

There's 3 ways to fix our current striker problem, scrap them all and replace them. They all become a lot more efficient with the limited chances per game they get (and I mean limited real chances not half chances because let's face it how many 1v1s do we really get per game not many) or bring in a playmaker to service all the hungry forwards. 

Timo is a frustrating player but I can't see how anyone could really want to move him on when he's the most productive forward and we don't even use him right. 

Edit: Also games where Timo plays against high lines you get to see him at his best. It's why he always looks dangerous vs Southampton, Liverpool or City with his runs. He's aware of this and still came to the Prem he clearly likes the challenge. 2 seasons isn't really that long of a time, who's to say if he will ever explode but let's not forget some players take longer to adjust to leagues.

Edited April 29, 20224 yr by LongtimerLurker

4 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

It's pretty much the same debate on here regarding Timo. All I'll say is if we had a player who actually tried to play him through when he makes his runs he would get even more chances. Before we signed him anyone who knew the player was aware he needed a few chances per game to score. 

In this team some games he does in fact get a few chances but most of the time he is starved of service. It's the same with Lukaku he might not be helpful in buildup aside from be used as a target man to hold up the ball and let players bounce the ball off. But, yet again like Timo he wants the ball early in transition and he just doesn't get it. 

For all the lack of finishing in the squad there is a serious creativity issue, forwards are starved of service therefore have to make their own chances, usually against a low block it really isn't hard to see why some have failed to meet such lofty expectations. 

The same ones who think Timo is trash will be wondering why if or when he moves he suddenly looks like a top player. If he played for Pep, Klopp, Don Carlo or any other elite manager that actually has a midfield that can play through balls he would score more goals. 

As frustrating as people may find him stats don't lie he scorers or assists on average 1/2 games which really isn't that bad.

To be elite in this league means to take chances, half chances sure we've come to expect that level of play. Yet players like Benzema and Lewandowski have teams built to service them, can anyone really say our system is built to provide for Timo, Lukaku or even Havertz to a lesser extent and even if you do think it is, can you say that it's working? 

Havertz imo is the only one of our strikers who I see the whole team actively looking to get on the ball, Timo's and Rom's central runs are ignored a lot more often compared to Kai's. 

There's 3 ways to fix our current striker problem, scrap them all and replace them. They all become a lot more efficient with the limited chances per game they get (and I mean limited real chances not half chances because let's face it how many 1v1s do we really get per game not many) or bring in a playmaker to service all the hungry forwards. 

Timo is a frustrating player but I can't see how anyone could really want to move him on when he's the most productive forward and we don't even use him right. 

Edit: Also games where Timo plays against high lines you get to see him at his best. It's why he always looks dangerous vs Southampton, Liverpool or City with his runs. He's aware of this and still came to the Prem he clearly likes the challenge. 2 seasons isn't really that long of a time, who's to say if he will ever explode but let's not forget some players take longer to adjust to leagues.

Back from a long night supporting local live music and just read your post. I have plenty to say on this Longtime and will type it out tomorrow.

But to kick off. Would you be confident with our new owners spending say £120 million and changing the formation, building a system, solely to accommodate Werner? Do you think he has shown that much potential? Do you really think that is what we should be looking to do?

Actually to start, can you tell me what he was brought to do?  What he is? A centre-forward? A winger? A number 10? A winger cum forward? If we can perhaps establish that then we have a point of reference to continue.

Edited April 30, 20224 yr by just

5 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Season to date, all comps :

Timo is the best at the club for goals per 90 and mins per goal (same thing really) and his chance conversion % is significantly better than Havertz, Lukaku and Mount.

 

That's amazing. Jorginho has a 10% higher shot accuracy than Werner.

God I love statistics. They always tell the full story. 

20 hours ago, just said:

Firstly Bob, what, specifically, did he do well? And please, please don't say movement or running.

Secondly, what was he brought for?

He didn't lose the ball constantly. 

You can't expect him to do much. No space behind this is what you get. 

9 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Season to date, all comps :

Timo is the best at the club for goals per 90 and mins per goal (same thing really) and his chance conversion % is significantly better than Havertz, Lukaku and Mount.

 

This is probably better than shot conversion (I don't know how good understat data is but this is the only one that I can get) 

Lukaku n puli are about even. 

Werner n Havertz are  below their xg. 

Mount, James n chill exceed their xg

Jorgi shot is 99.9% penalty so his stat is irrelevant. 

All in all, It kinda match our eye test

Edited April 30, 20224 yr by Bob stark

5 hours ago, just said:

That's amazing. Jorginho has a 10% higher shot accuracy than Werner.

God I love statistics. They always tell the full story. 

Only because it includes his penalties ... :-) 

Chaloba's figures are better than CHO's, which is a bit embarrassing for CHO as an attacker LOL

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

This is probably better than shot conversion (I don't know how good understat data is but this is the only one that I can get) 

Lukaku n puli are about even. 

Werner n Havertz are  below their xg. 

Mount, James n chill exceed their xg

Jorgi shot is 99.9% penalty so his stat is irrelevant. 

All in all, It kinda match our eye test

That's PL only.

Werner "improves" significantly if you include the Cups, particularly the Champions League.

Edited April 30, 20224 yr by Sexyfootball

32 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Only because it includes his penalties ... 🙂

Chaloba's figures are better than CHO's, which is a bit embarrassing for CHO as an attacker LOL

That's PL only.

Werner "improves" significantly if you include the Cups, particularly the Champions League.

I don't have his number for cl n cups so I can't make any comment. But he has been with us for 2 year and his stat in pl kinda match eye test. 

Honestly xg is probably the best stat to use to see whether you are a good finisher or not especially if you look at it in long term. Werner is not, Havertz is not( except in maybe 16 yard box). I am not sure why do you want to defend Werner finishing. His strength is not his finishing. It is his volume and intensity of his run. This is why he received tons of chances (which explain his high xg).  He is our best runner and we need runner to make defender honest.

Furthermore most top st does not exceed their xg constantly this include cr7, player who most will say the best goal getter of all time. Only crazy finisher like Kane n alien like messi exceed their xg year after year. Top st best trait is their ability to get chances. Most of them has about even goal vs xg, but werner number is usually behind his xg.

With werner it is very simple, if we don't play much faster (won't happen under Tuchel), sign a Fabregas or he simply move back to Germany, what you have right now is what you will see.However if he move to Germany, what you see is what we saw vs soton. He could have scored double digits in that game. 

Edited April 30, 20224 yr by Bob stark

1 minute ago, Bob stark said:

I don't have his number for cl n cups so I can't make any comment. But he has been with us for 2 year and his stat in pl kinda match eye test. 

Honestly xg is probably the best stat to use to see whether you are a good finisher or not especially if you look at it in long term. Werner is not, Havertz is not( except in maybe 16 yard box). I am not sure why do you want to defend Werner finishing. His strength is not his finishing. It is his volume and intensity of his run. This is why he received tons of chances (which explain his high xg).  He is our best runner and we need runner to make defender honest.

Furthermore most top st does not exceed their xg constantly this include cr7, player who most will say the best goal getter of all time. Only crazy finisher like Kane n alien like messi exceed their xg year after year. Top st best trait is their ability to get chances. Most of them has about even goal vs xg, but werner number is usually behind his xg.

With werner it is very simple, if we don't play much faster (won't happen under Tuchel), sign a Fabregas or he simply move back to Germany, what you have right now is what you will see.However if he move to Germany, what you see is what we saw vs soton. He could have scored double digits in that game. 

I'm not defending anything ! I am merely presenting comparative data for our squad :-) 

I wouldn't call Kane an elite finisher. He needs 6 or 7 chances for every goal he scores (shot conversion 15% in the PL). The whole Tottenham system is built around that though ...