@Sexyfootball

Ronaldo 

Kane

Edited April 30, 20224 yr by Bob stark

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

 

You can't expect him to do much. No space behind this is what you get. 

Are you talking about the Utd match, because there was more space on behind their defence than there is on mars.

Just now, dkw said:

Are you talking about the Utd match, because there was more space on behind their defence than there is on mars.

😂😂😂

You are right we had crazy amount of space but it was mostly on our right wing (Rashford) n deeper (Bruno + Ronaldo) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I keep seeing the lack of space excuse, it’s not good enough for me really. Salah and Mane thrive on acres of space but they can still be devastating in tight spaces, eg teams parking the bus.

He’s very limited as a footballer. Leipzig played to his strengths and well, it’s not possible for us to do that since a lot of teams will be parking the bus against us.

14 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Timo is a frustrating player but I can't see how anyone could really want to move him on when he's the most productive forward and we don't even use him right. 

Edit: Also games where Timo plays against high lines you get to see him at his best. It's why he always looks dangerous vs Southampton, Liverpool or City with his runs. He's aware of this and still came to the Prem he clearly likes the challenge. 2 seasons isn't really that long of a time, who's to say if he will ever explode but let's not forget some players take longer to adjust to leagues.

At this point you can't just say that Tuchel doesn't use him right.

Tuchel had 0 patience for Tammy last season and Werner played 3800+ minutes without being able to score more than him. Now at 2000 minutes played he has 1 goal less than last season, clearly it's not about how someone uses Werner but his max ability isn't really showing that he's a good striker. This season in the PL he scored 3/4 goals against Southampton and 1 deflection goal vs Arsenal, that's it. Last season scored twice against Southampton as well so 2/6 goals came from there so that's the 1 team he managed to score against consistently and that's it, rest is mainly bottom feeder clubs.

This is how he has done in the PL:

He has more big chances missed than goals + assists made in total. You can't make an argument right now that he's a good attacking player that is not being used properly.

In modern football an attacker is expected to do a lot for his team and let's be honest here, Werner isn't some German version of Ronaldinho that gets the crowd going so all he was about was his sheer number of goals scored, it wasn't even about his efficiency since he was known to take a lot of shots where he was scoring a lot but also missing a lot.

But is he the same player that scores 30+ goals in 40+ matches like he did in RB Leipzig? No he isn't! He's just selling snake oil with his pace at this point. A top club wouldn't want to extend his deal based upon what he's done for 2 seasons here, you can't expect such amount of hope and trust in football, many players with just 1 bad season like Werner had last year would be gone from any radar...

I would be fine with taking that "risk" and sell him to Liverpool just to see if he's going to make Klopp go insane or not. 

39 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

I keep seeing the lack of space excuse, it’s not good enough for me really. Salah and Mane thrive on acres of space but they can still be devastating in tight spaces, eg teams parking the bus.

He’s very limited as a footballer. Leipzig played to his strengths and well, it’s not possible for us to do that since a lot of teams will be parking the bus against us.

Liverpool dont generally play as slowly and predictably as we do.

Let me be clear, I do agree that Timo's record has not been good enough here, and I think he is broken.

But.....

I think the whole team is broken when it comes to attacking. As I have said before, City generally pass and move a lot quicker than us. Liverpool generally play a lot quicker than us, swarming forward from all angles.  But contrast, we tend to be MUCH slower, much more predictable, slowly knocking it around our cb's before rudi pings it out wide, then it gets knocked back into the midfield, then it goes sideways 37 times, before going to alonso, then azpi gets it and takes 14 touches, before knocking it back to rudi, and the whole boring charade starts again....

This entire system does not suit attackers. I genuinely believe that if you put saleh or mane in our team, that they would also struggle.

Timo probably needs to go back to Germany, or move to Liverpool or counter attacking UTD. But I dont have high hopes that whoever we bring in to replace him will be a success.

 

Even if we played to his strengths he'd always be offside and miss anyway.

11 hours ago, just said:

Back from a long night supporting local live music and just read your post. I have plenty to say on this Longtime and will type it out tomorrow.

But to kick off. Would you be confident with our new owners spending say £120 million and changing the formation, building a system, solely to accommodate Werner? Do you think he has shown that much potential? Do you really think that is what we should be looking to do?

Actually to start, can you tell me what he was brought to do?  What he is? A centre-forward? A winger? A number 10? A winger cum forward? If we can perhaps establish that then we have a point of reference to continue.

My point is why buy him then if we weren't going to play to his style the same with Lukaku it makes zero sense. I can understand people being frustrated with both Timo and Rom but they can't take all the blame.

He is a striker but more of a support striker same with Havertz. Lukaku also prefers to play in a 2. Now you could play any 2 of these 3 at the same time in their actual positions yet it won't matter because believe it or not strikers need actual service.

We can go round and round about who's underperformed, the system and TTs tactics but at the end of the day Tuchel does not have the midfield or personnel in the squad to play his style of attacking football. 

There is zero creativity, the ball is recycled side to side, we then go down a wing and try to cross. Does Werner look like a target man to you? Sure with Lukaku and Havertz that can work, but you don't pay £200m+ on forwards to just do that tactic. You don't mate it's a simple as that, all three prefer vertical lateral through balls on transition to run on through. 

I bet you house and home had Havertz or Werner signed for Liverpool or City they would look like world beaters. Not because of those two teams respective managers or styles, but the creativity that both squads have. 

Let's look at our squad who can you say creates chances consistently? Mount, James and maybe CHO. Alonso chips in with a few crosses and when fit so does Chilly b. Aside from them how many players in our squad are creative hubs? Ziyech whilst he scores goals doesn't do nearly half of what any of us thought he would do from a playmaking standpoint. Even Lamps got more out of him creativly.

I don't know maybe I just see what you don't see or you see what I don't see, but I can't fathom how anyone can sit down and see Timo as the problem.

In fact I'll make a bet with you, next time he plays watch just Timo even if you can only do it for 5 mins. Watch his off the ball runs and tell me how many times he makes a run through the centre where a defender doesn't follow and he's on yet no one picks him out. 

Then do the same for Lukaku and tell me they're the issue. You put Fabregas or Hazard in this team, heck even Oscar and you would see players like Pulisic, Lukaku, Werner and Havertz benefit. Stylistically TT has created a system that gets the best from the squad whilst minimising its weakness which is lack of defensive cover in his mind to play a back 4 consistently. 

He doesn't want games like City vs Real where we can score a few but will concede a couple ourselves. He also knows he doesn't have any risk takers in midfield that will look to play that early ball. Jorginho tries sometimes but very rarely gets an assist. Kovacic has it in his locker but doesn't show it enough. RLC also has the ability but for whatever reason is yet to really show his creative abilities since coming back from injury and Kanté can provide killer balls but that's obviously not what he's in the team to do. 

Speaking purely with my coaching hat, I don't know if you coach or ever had but having a player like Werner is such an indispensable weapon. Raw pace at the elite level is very hard to deal with. Can you honestly say you think Salah or Mané would be doing much better in this system surrounded by a lack of creativity?

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

At this point you can't just say that Tuchel doesn't use him right.

Tuchel had 0 patience for Tammy last season and Werner played 3800+ minutes without being able to score more than him. Now at 2000 minutes played he has 1 goal less than last season, clearly it's not about how someone uses Werner but his max ability isn't really showing that he's a good striker. This season in the PL he scored 3/4 goals against Southampton and 1 deflection goal vs Arsenal, that's it. Last season scored twice against Southampton as well so 2/6 goals came from there so that's the 1 team he managed to score against consistently and that's it, rest is mainly bottom feeder clubs.

This is how he has done in the PL:

He has more big chances missed than goals + assists made in total. You can't make an argument right now that he's a good attacking player that is not being used properly.

In modern football an attacker is expected to do a lot for his team and let's be honest here, Werner isn't some German version of Ronaldinho that gets the crowd going so all he was about was his sheer number of goals scored, it wasn't even about his efficiency since he was known to take a lot of shots where he was scoring a lot but also missing a lot.

But is he the same player that scores 30+ goals in 40+ matches like he did in RB Leipzig? No he isn't! He's just selling snake oil with his pace at this point. A top club wouldn't want to extend his deal based upon what he's done for 2 seasons here, you can't expect such amount of hope and trust in football, many players with just 1 bad season like Werner had last year would be gone from any radar...

I would be fine with taking that "risk" and sell him to Liverpool just to see if he's going to make Klopp go insane or not. 

It's not that Tuchel doesn't use him right, it's that Tuchel just doesn't have the right personnel to use him right. You think Tuchel wants to recycle possession a thousand times just to put a cross in from the right? 

Look at his PSG and Dortmund sides they had dynamic midfielders who could slide a pass forward for an on running striker or winger to attack the vacant space in behind the defense. None of our midfielders are confident enough to try this regularly and it hurts our attacking numbers. We have players that either make the wrong decision in the final third or ones that rarely get any chances. 

Like I've said before we can go round and round in circles, some people think he's not a good enough footballer to warrant defense of his lacklustre numbers yet fail to see the cause for this. Its like buying a dog and complaining its not a cat. Let's buy Timo a counter attack player and play him in a possession based system and when he doesn't get many chances or goals let's criticise him for being trash. 

Then let's buy Romelu Lukaku for £100m who also played in a counter attacking system and let's carry on playing possession based football and use him as a target man which he can be but doesn't paint the picture of the kind of player he is. Just like Timo he wants the ball in space, he wants to counter attack at speed.

What do our players do when they see Rom or Timo on the last man they delay the forward ball pass it side to side and then when they finally put the ball in the box there's plenty of bodies to defend. 

To reiterate by no means are Timo or Lukaku blameless, both are limited footballers that in the grand scheme we overpaid for. However, I can't sit and listen to people constantly berate them for issues that clearly aren't just down to them.

Why buy a player that is good at something and then not play to their strengths? It makes no sense and then when the players struggle, call them out for being trash. Sure Rom doesn't help him self bt at least Timo tries.

Say what you want about Billy Gilmour but at least he's courageous to play the ball forward as soon as he receives it, maybe he's not ready for this level. Yet he remains one of the best options for our forwards to actually get more chances.

It only takes 5 minutes to watch any of our strikers play to see you could put any player there in world football and if they're half decent they'll get a few goals but for the most part will struggle from a lack of service.

We're playing a Sunday league style attack, it was evident against Utd on Thursday how many times did we cross from the right? That's plan A, B and C. People use playing against a deep block as an excuse for lack of creativity yet City and Liverpool both find a way to score regularly against every team and style in the league.

At one point do you have to say that it's not just one player but an issue with the whole team, I'm not throwing anyone under the bus for Timo and Rom. But if you can't see the lack of creativity then it doesn't matter who replaces either of these two they will struggle as well. It's not like they're the first strikers to struggle at Chelsea fc, history tells us they probably won't be the last.

For the record I don't think any single individual is to blame for our teams attacking woes, its a combination of recruitment, management, players failing to adapt, injuries and the style of the league that have contributed to our lack of cutting edge. Funny part is the reason we fell out of the title race was because we lost our two wingbacks which tells you all you need to know about who we rely on to score goals.

The system was deliberately set up for that position, and with the right personnel Reece and Ben it worked. Why? Because we played early balls down the wing and then they would either have a 1v1 or play a cross to a striker for a tap in. So why can our players pass to our wingbacks on transition but not our strikers who are waiting to run in a direct central line towards the goal? 

 

2 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

It's not that Tuchel doesn't use him right, it's that Tuchel just doesn't have the right personnel to use him right. You think Tuchel wants to recycle possession a thousand times just to put a cross in from the right? 

Look at his PSG and Dortmund sides they had dynamic midfielders who could slide a pass forward for an on running striker or winger to attack the vacant space in behind the defense. None of our midfielders are confident enough to try this regularly and it hurts our attacking numbers. We have players that either make the wrong decision in the final third or ones that rarely get any chances. 

Like I've said before we can go round and round in circles, some people think he's not a good enough footballer to warrant defense of his lacklustre numbers yet fail to see the cause for this. Its like buying a dog and complaining its not a cat. Let's buy Timo a counter attack player and play him in a possession based system and when he doesn't get many chances or goals let's criticise him for being trash. 

Then let's buy Romelu Lukaku for £100m who also played in a counter attacking system and let's carry on playing possession based football and use him as a target man which he can be but doesn't paint the picture of the kind of player he is. Just like Timo he wants the ball in space, he wants to counter attack at speed.

What do our players do when they see Rom or Timo on the last man they delay the forward ball pass it side to side and then when they finally put the ball in the box there's plenty of bodies to defend. 

To reiterate by no means are Timo or Lukaku blameless, both are limited footballers that in the grand scheme we overpaid for. However, I can't sit and listen to people constantly berate them for issues that clearly aren't just down to them.

Why buy a player that is good at something and then not play to their strengths? It makes no sense and then when the players struggle, call them out for being trash. Sure Rom doesn't help him self bt at least Timo tries.

Say what you want about Billy Gilmour but at least he's courageous to play the ball forward as soon as he receives it, maybe he's not ready for this level. Yet he remains one of the best options for our forwards to actually get more chances.

It only takes 5 minutes to watch any of our strikers play to see you could put any player there in world football and if they're half decent they'll get a few goals but for the most part will struggle from a lack of service.

We're playing a Sunday league style attack, it was evident against Utd on Thursday how many times did we cross from the right? That's plan A, B and C. People use playing against a deep block as an excuse for lack of creativity yet City and Liverpool both find a way to score regularly against every team and style in the league.

At one point do you have to say that it's not just one player but an issue with the whole team, I'm not throwing anyone under the bus for Timo and Rom. But if you can't see the lack of creativity then it doesn't matter who replaces either of these two they will struggle as well. It's not like they're the first strikers to struggle at Chelsea fc, history tells us they probably won't be the last.

For the record I don't think any single individual is to blame for our teams attacking woes, its a combination of recruitment, management, players failing to adapt, injuries and the style of the league that have contributed to our lack of cutting edge. Funny part is the reason we fell out of the title race was because we lost our two wingbacks which tells you all you need to know about who we rely on to score goals.

The system was deliberately set up for that position, and with the right personnel Reece and Ben it worked. Why? Because we played early balls down the wing and then they would either have a 1v1 or play a cross to a striker for a tap in. So why can our players pass to our wingbacks on transition but not our strikers who are waiting to run in a direct central line towards the goal? 

 

This highlighted things don't fully reflect upon Werner's game, he did get tons of passes but the problem is that he wasted many chances and simply missed the final finish too many times. He has missed tons of chances for us and he has been in offside a lot as well, that means that a lot of attacks failed not due to anyone else but due to Werner's ability to either finish a chance, stay onside or simply make the right decision at the right time.

Our central midfielders at the very least have had the same amount of end product in comparison to Liverpool this season but somehow Salah, Mane and Jota have scored 10+ league goals, Salah has 20+ league goals. Our wingbacks are a bit behind in comparison but James and Chilwell at the start of the season were able to both score and assist multiple goals so that's also a high quality support on both sides and despite his lack of pace, Alonso is still able to contribute in the final third for us with an occasional goal or assist. But the majority of goals Werner scored is against lower opposition, this suggests that his level is for a mid-table team and not for a top team and it's not just 1 season but 2.

For this PL season, Werner so far took a bit more than 3 shots per 90' which is very similar to Mané and Jota. His average shot distance from goal is about 13 yards again similar to Mané and Jota (Jota on average shoots from even closer range) so that means that on average he's in the opposition box when he takes a shot. The difference is that Mané and Jota basically score from almost every second shot that they put on target (Mané has 0.44 G/SoT, Jota 0.52) while Werner needs an extra shot in order to score. The outcome is that Jota scored 15 and Mané 14 PL goals while Werner scored 4. Mané and Jota did play more and they did miss more chances but overall per 90' their level of consistency is just far better, they took more shots and despite it they have a better % of shots on target than Werner. Werner played about 1000 minutes less than them and has taken 41 shots, it suggests that with 1000 minutes more he would have about 80 shots taken which is similar to Mané (88) and Jota (77) so if it's the same trajectory Werner with a similar playtime could still have less than 10 PL goals. After all last season Werner played a whole lot and he didn't manage any better than this season when he's playing less so this also shows that last season's lack of goals wasn't due to him being overplayed.

You can't just blame Tuchel's style of play for Werner's lack of ability, it's easy to say that if he had nobody around him in a counter-attack that he would have done better on a regular basis, that's true to ALL attacking players. I'm not ready to blame the team in regards to how Lukaku plays and does, so with that standard I can't blame the team in regards to how Werner does either. Just ask @Argo if it's right to blame the team for the lack of ability of Lukaku.

Think personal along with the system are the reason why we recycle possession vs be more direct. We are opting an additional CB for a central midfielder, and we have Jorginho, Kante, and Kovacic who aren't the type of distributing midfielders our attackers need. 

That being said, this isn't a defence in Werner at all. Far too many times he's wasted/squandered chances after being picked out. 

5 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Think personal along with the system are the reason why we recycle possession vs be more direct. We are opting an additional CB for a central midfielder, and we have Jorginho, Kante, and Kovacic who aren't the type of distributing midfielders our attackers need. 

That being said, this isn't a defence in Werner at all. Far too many times he's wasted/squandered chances after being picked out. 

Liverpool's midfield didn't really do better than ours in terms of assists and goals this season. So can't blame them for the poor finishing when stat-wise their midfield with similar assist numbers somehow has Salah with 22, Jota with 15 and Mané with 14 league goals.

Edited April 30, 20224 yr by Gol15

20 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

This highlighted things don't fully reflect upon Werner's game, he did get tons of passes but the problem is that he wasted many chances and simply missed the final finish too many times. He has missed tons of chances for us and he has been in offside a lot as well, that means that a lot of attacks failed not due to anyone else but due to Werner's ability to either finish a chance, stay onside or simply make the right decision at the right time.

Our central midfielders at the very least have had the same amount of end product in comparison to Liverpool this season but somehow Salah, Mane and Jota have scored 10+ league goals, Salah has 20+ league goals. Our wingbacks are a bit behind in comparison but James and Chilwell at the start of the season were able to both score and assist multiple goals so that's also a high quality support on both sides and despite his lack of pace, Alonso is still able to contribute in the final third for us with an occasional goal or assist. But the majority of goals Werner scored is against lower opposition, this suggests that his level is for a mid-table team and not for a top team and it's not just 1 season but 2.

For this PL season, Werner so far took a bit more than 3 shots per 90' which is very similar to Mané and Jota. His average shot distance from goal is about 13 yards again similar to Mané and Jota (Jota on average shoots from even closer range) so that means that on average he's in the opposition box when he takes a shot. The difference is that Mané and Jota basically score from almost every second shot that they put on target (Mané has 0.44 G/SoT, Jota 0.52) while Werner needs an extra shot in order to score. The outcome is that Jota scored 15 and Mané 14 PL goals while Werner scored 4. Mané and Jota did play more and they did miss more chances but overall per 90' their level of consistency is just far better, they took more shots and despite it they have a better % of shots on target than Werner. Werner played about 1000 minutes less than them and has taken 41 shots, it suggests that with 1000 minutes more he would have about 80 shots taken which is similar to Mané (88) and Jota (77) so if it's the same trajectory Werner with a similar playtime could still have less than 10 PL goals. After all last season Werner played a whole lot and he didn't manage any better than this season when he's playing less so this also shows that last season's lack of goals wasn't due to him being overplayed.

You can't just blame Tuchel's style of play for Werner's lack of ability, it's easy to say that if he had nobody around him in a counter-attack that he would have done better on a regular basis, that's true to ALL attacking players. I'm not ready to blame the team in regards to how Lukaku plays and does, so with that standard I can't blame the team in regards to how Werner does either. Just ask @Argo if it's right to blame the team for the lack of ability of Lukaku.

Again by no means do I make out Werner is perfect and that his lack of numbers are to be blamed on everyone but him. Firstly you highlight his playing time which is a good basis to start, yet it's impossible to know with more game time what his output would be. Predicting only gives us a small idea and again its still hypothetical.

Furthermore, when he does play at least he gets into shooting opportunities he may not be scoring, but he's doing more than some when he's played in his position.

Yet with the right passes he could have even more chances per game. Add in the amount of times he's hit the post and you can call him unlucky, not to mention his offsides have calmed down a lot this season and perhaps suggest an opportunity for improvement for him to stay on side and teammates to spot his runs sooner.

Secondly when you compare him to Liverpool's forwards something that you must consider is not only their midfield but also their fullbacks and fellow forwards who also create at much higher rate than ours.

Hence why I said this is a problem with the whole team. Every single one of our forward players have underperformed since the conclusion of the 18/19 season (with Giroud, Pulisic, Mount and Havertz in that time having hot streaks that unfortunately they were unable to retain).

This suggests the personnel currently available for whatever reason do not compliment the type of attacking football brand now popular in modern football. 

Again I've not criticised Tuchel's style, I've only highlighted the lack of personnel to play his style effectively. It's a simple eye test whenever we are against teams with a low block we struggle to be penetrative, this is due to the current personnel which lacks risk taking.

We are too obsessed with retaining possession, which means are attacks become predictable. Rather than play the direct ball first time we will move it side to side and then eventually play a cross into a packed box. 

Everything must be done at a much quicker tempo, it's why you'll see Thomas on the sidelines often saying move the ball quicker. He knows they're capable of more, why they struggle to show it in games is a mystery. 

The games this season that we've scored a lot of goals in, were games where the ball was moved quickly, and the forwards were ruthlessly clinical which can't always happen granted.

Regardless of how you spin it, how can you not see that under these circumstance almost any forward would struggle especially those like Werner who's style suits a very specific type of football which surprise surprise is currently the most prevalent in world football. 

High intensity pressing, off the ball movement, passing circuits that whilst the primary function is to move the opposition players out of their position its also used to look for quick breaks immediately upon gaining possession.

Look how many counter attack opportunities we have compared to City and Liverpool, how many 1v1s we have per game and ask yourself why don't we come close to their numbers?

Transition is the most deadliest moment to attack and our team currently is incapable of truly taking advantage of this facet. I'll say it again next time we play watch how many forward runs the strikers make pointing into the space and are ignored, its not just Werner all of them lack consistent early service. I've watched it all season you can disagree by all means, we can agree to disagree but I don't doubt what my eyes show me. 

To get the best out of this squad a world class playmaker is needed and then if our strikers still can't score goals....then that's on them.

Notice how at the start of the season lukaku was ruthlessly clinical with the small chances he got, he's now gone from getting a couple of chances per game to none. Partly its to do with his own movement but its also due to the lack of proper service (losing Chilwell and only really having Alonso and James  who was out for 2 months). 

I can't remember which game it was but Kovacic early on in the season played Lukaku through, it was a vertical through ball which he ran into space dummies the defender and puts it in the net and you think this is what we've we've missing.

Since then how many times can you count has he received a ball of that quality firstly, secondly a pass of that nature, he doesn't we just recycle the ball and put into the box for him. Timo and Lukaku don't get through balls which is there bread and butter.

So by all means criticise them for not doing there jobs but without accepting the context its flawed logic to deem them as solely the problem and not accept other extrinsic factors.

Longtime Lurker and me are not the same person....I promise!

Spot on though, Agree 100% with all LL has said over the last few messages. 

The number of times our supporting players fail to pick out the runs being made with a quick pass is eye watering. Game after game. 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Liverpool's midfield didn't really do better than ours in terms of assists and goals this season. So can't blame them for the poor finishing when stat-wise their midfield with similar assist numbers somehow has Salah with 22, Jota with 15 and Mané with 14 league goals.

Here we go - Blind ignorance again.

Are you GENUINELY trying to say that Liverpool don't create more chances for their strikers? I don't know or care about their midfield stats, but it is clear as day that the entire Liverpool team, including their midfield, pass and move the ball faster than us, are more direct than us, and move more than us - all of which contributes to more space (pulling defenders around) and chances. 

 

24 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Longtime Lurker and me are not the same person....I promise!

Is that so? 

2 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Again by no means do I make out Werner is perfect and that his lack of numbers are to be blamed on everyone but him. Firstly you highlight his playing time which is a good basis to start, yet it's impossible to know with more game time what his output would be. Predicting only gives us a small idea and again its still hypothetical.

Furthermore, when he does play at least he gets into shooting opportunities he may not be scoring, but he's doing more than some when he's played in his position.

Yet with the right passes he could have even more chances per game. Add in the amount of times he's hit the post and you can call him unlucky, not to mention his offsides have calmed down a lot this season and perhaps suggest an opportunity for improvement for him to stay on side and teammates to spot his runs sooner.

Secondly when you compare him to Liverpool's forwards something that you must consider is not only their midfield but also their fullbacks and fellow forwards who also create at much higher rate than ours.

Hence why I said this is a problem with the whole team. Every single one of our forward players have underperformed since the conclusion of the 18/19 season (with Giroud, Pulisic, Mount and Havertz in that time having hot streaks that unfortunately they were unable to retain).

This suggests the personnel currently available for whatever reason do not compliment the type of attacking football brand now popular in modern football. 

Again I've not criticised Tuchel's style, I've only highlighted the lack of personnel to play his style effectively. It's a simple eye test whenever we are against teams with a low block we struggle to be penetrative, this is due to the current personnel which lacks risk taking.

We are too obsessed with retaining possession, which means are attacks become predictable. Rather than play the direct ball first time we will move it side to side and then eventually play a cross into a packed box. 

Everything must be done at a much quicker tempo, it's why you'll see Thomas on the sidelines often saying move the ball quicker. He knows they're capable of more, why they struggle to show it in games is a mystery. 

The games this season that we've scored a lot of goals in, were games where the ball was moved quickly, and the forwards were ruthlessly clinical which can't always happen granted.

Regardless of how you spin it, how can you not see that under these circumstance almost any forward would struggle especially those like Werner who's style suits a very specific type of football which surprise surprise is currently the most prevalent in world football. 

High intensity pressing, off the ball movement, passing circuits that whilst the primary function is to move the opposition players out of their position its also used to look for quick breaks immediately upon gaining possession.

Look how many counter attack opportunities we have compared to City and Liverpool, how many 1v1s we have per game and ask yourself why don't we come close to their numbers?

Transition is the most deadliest moment to attack and our team currently is incapable of truly taking advantage of this facet. I'll say it again next time we play watch how many forward runs the strikers make pointing into the space and are ignored, its not just Werner all of them lack consistent early service. I've watched it all season you can disagree by all means, we can agree to disagree but I don't doubt what my eyes show me. 

To get the best out of this squad a world class playmaker is needed and then if our strikers still can't score goals....then that's on them.

Notice how at the start of the season lukaku was ruthlessly clinical with the small chances he got, he's now gone from getting a couple of chances per game to none. Partly its to do with his own movement but its also due to the lack of proper service (losing Chilwell and only really having Alonso and James  who was out for 2 months). 

I can't remember which game it was but Kovacic early on in the season played Lukaku through, it was a vertical through ball which he ran into space dummies the defender and puts it in the net and you think this is what we've we've missing.

Since then how many times can you count has he received a ball of that quality firstly, secondly a pass of that nature, he doesn't we just recycle the ball and put into the box for him. Timo and Lukaku don't get through balls which is there bread and butter.

So by all means criticise them for not doing there jobs but without accepting the context its flawed logic to deem them as solely the problem and not accept other extrinsic factors.

You're right that there might be other factors involved but it's the responsibility of Werner to do the best he can with what he's given and the fact is, his best in our context isn't good enough and stats clearly show it, stats I presented are from the PL website, transfermarkt and Fbref and it all points to Werner not being good enough. I'm not sure how many seasons would a player on the highest level need in order to adapt but Werner has now had 2 and in the highest level most don't get as much.

Had Werner not missed so many clear-cut chances, he would have been a good player regardless of anyone else in the squad because when everything said and done he was bought to score goals and he's not doing it nearly enough.

So I agree that this case of Werner is more complicated and that it has multiple factors involved but then at the same time I can't agree with you trying to point some lack of personnel or lack of service because our midfield is actually at the same level as Liverpool's midfield (or slightly better) when it comes to assists made or simply end product. Should we play faster? Yes we should. But for example that alone doesn't mean that Werner being the most times in offside is justifiable, last 2 seasons in the PL 38 times caught offside isn't due to someone else not passing fast enough, maybe a few of those were a result of a late pass but so many times in offside well that's lack of ability of Werner and that's just one example. 

As much as I wish that my logic was flawed here, just by so many numbers that go against Werner I know that when all said and done he isn't good enough, regardless of any tactic, any teammate or any formation. I used to think like you, that Lampard isn't using him correctly but I changed my stance when another manager couldn't get him to play well either. So just like I think about Lukaku not being good enough I feel the same about Werner.

Edited April 30, 20224 yr by Gol15

9 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

My point is why buy him then if we weren't going to play to his style the same with Lukaku it makes zero sense. I can understand people being frustrated with both Timo and Rom but they can't take all the blame.

He is a striker but more of a support striker same with Havertz. Lukaku also prefers to play in a 2. Now you could play any 2 of these 3 at the same time in their actual positions yet it won't matter because believe it or not strikers need actual service.

We can go round and round about who's underperformed, the system and TTs tactics but at the end of the day Tuchel does not have the midfield or personnel in the squad to play his style of attacking football. 

There is zero creativity, the ball is recycled side to side, we then go down a wing and try to cross. Does Werner look like a target man to you? Sure with Lukaku and Havertz that can work, but you don't pay £200m+ on forwards to just do that tactic. You don't mate it's a simple as that, all three prefer vertical lateral through balls on transition to run on through. 

I bet you house and home had Havertz or Werner signed for Liverpool or City they would look like world beaters. Not because of those two teams respective managers or styles, but the creativity that both squads have. 

Let's look at our squad who can you say creates chances consistently? Mount, James and maybe CHO. Alonso chips in with a few crosses and when fit so does Chilly b. Aside from them how many players in our squad are creative hubs? Ziyech whilst he scores goals doesn't do nearly half of what any of us thought he would do from a playmaking standpoint. Even Lamps got more out of him creativly.

I don't know maybe I just see what you don't see or you see what I don't see, but I can't fathom how anyone can sit down and see Timo as the problem.

In fact I'll make a bet with you, next time he plays watch just Timo even if you can only do it for 5 mins. Watch his off the ball runs and tell me how many times he makes a run through the centre where a defender doesn't follow and he's on yet no one picks him out. 

Then do the same for Lukaku and tell me they're the issue. You put Fabregas or Hazard in this team, heck even Oscar and you would see players like Pulisic, Lukaku, Werner and Havertz benefit. Stylistically TT has created a system that gets the best from the squad whilst minimising its weakness which is lack of defensive cover in his mind to play a back 4 consistently. 

He doesn't want games like City vs Real where we can score a few but will concede a couple ourselves. He also knows he doesn't have any risk takers in midfield that will look to play that early ball. Jorginho tries sometimes but very rarely gets an assist. Kovacic has it in his locker but doesn't show it enough. RLC also has the ability but for whatever reason is yet to really show his creative abilities since coming back from injury and Kanté can provide killer balls but that's obviously not what he's in the team to do. 

Speaking purely with my coaching hat, I don't know if you coach or ever had but having a player like Werner is such an indispensable weapon. Raw pace at the elite level is very hard to deal with. Can you honestly say you think Salah or Mané would be doing much better in this system surrounded by a lack of creativity?

Never really coached Longtime except in local league football. But did have a period as a young man when I was paid to play at regional semi-pro level.

And yes. Salah and Mane would be doing better IMO. Technically, miles ahead of Werner. Werner doesn't do the basics well enough, often enough. Look at him receiving the ball in tight spaces. Look at him trying to move the ball with his first touch. Take it in a different direction. Trick an opponent. It isn't in his locker. A new system won't change that. And we also know now he isn't a natural finisher which is what he was brought for.

Top quality players don't need to operate in a taylor made system Longtime to deliver. In fact their quality usually makes the system work. Adds to it. Their ability, their adaptability is the key. Compare Werner to Salah, Mahrez, Diaz and even Sterling. He isn't at their level. He doesn't deliver and make the difference they often do. That's not down to a system, it's down to ability.

Werner is symptomatic of everything that is wrong with Chelsea at the moment. A player who, despite considerable playing time, is plainly not as good as our key rivals have fulfilling a similar role. We can't continue accepting second rate players and hoping they will come good. 

 

10 hours ago, just said:

Never really coached Longtime except in local league football. But did have a period as a young man when I was paid to play at regional semi-pro level.

And yes. Salah and Mane would be doing better IMO. Technically, miles ahead of Werner. Werner doesn't do the basics well enough, often enough. Look at him receiving the ball in tight spaces. Look at him trying to move the ball with his first touch. Take it in a different direction. Trick an opponent. It isn't in his locker. A new system won't change that. And we also know now he isn't a natural finisher which is what he was brought for.

Top quality players don't need to operate in a taylor made system Longtime to deliver. In fact their quality usually makes the system work. Adds to it. Their ability, their adaptability is the key. Compare Werner to Salah, Mahrez, Diaz and even Sterling. He isn't at their level. He doesn't deliver and make the difference they often do. That's not down to a system, it's down to ability.

Werner is symptomatic of everything that is wrong with Chelsea at the moment. A player who, despite considerable playing time, is plainly not as good as our key rivals have fulfilling a similar role. We can't continue accepting second rate players and hoping they will come good. 

 

There is this trend of analyzing player based on "role" or position rather than looking at a player and see their individual skillset. Werner and salah are both inside forward but their skillset are very different.

Take 2 skills, back to goal and ability to compete on long ball. Salah is riddiculously good at back to goal play and receiving long ball. I saw pool kicked random long ball towards salah against Maguire and simply just asked him to compete. Riddiculous stuff. You can't do this with werner. 

Edited May 1, 20224 yr by Bob stark

Werner had the lowest number of touches of our outfield players and the worst pass completion rate. Posed no problems at all. Was completely outshone by Antony Gordon for Everton. 

1 hour ago, just said:

Werner had the lowest number of touches of our outfield players and the worst pass completion rate. Posed no problems at all. Was completely outshone by Antony Gordon for Everton. 

Was he comparable to Lukaku at Brighton?

25 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Was he comparable to Lukaku at Brighton?

Wasn't it Palace when The donkey had 9 touches?

But no - he wasn't that bad. He wasn't any worse than any of our other forward players. The whole team was trash. 

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Was he comparable to Lukaku at Brighton?

Kind of a similar level of irrelevancy... 

He worked hard

 

He didn't look up