1 minute ago, Bob stark said:

Formation is not the problem. The most important question you need to ask who do you want to get the best out of. 

 

Ideally everyone lol.

Just now, axman2526 said:

Ideally everyone lol.

Sadly, we don't live in perfect world 😁😁

3 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Sadly, we don't live in perfect world 😁😁

Indeed. 

 

Everyone will have different opinions on it. For me it would be a free role for Havertz behind Lukaku, pulisic pulling to the left and Mount as a wide right attacker.

Kante and the best partner for him as the deeper midfielder, ideally an Essien type.

Also is funny how every single player wenhave becomes so much better rated when they are not playing/ not able to play.

Bar Kante, who is at best fairly rated.

Just now, axman2526 said:

Indeed. 

 

Everyone will have different opinions on it. For me it would be a free role for Havertz behind Lukaku, pulisic pulling to the left and Mount as a wide right attacker.

Kante and the best partner for him as the deeper midfielder, ideally an Essien type.

I like you said "Everyone will have different opinions" because this is everything, different formation will accentuate different player 

 

Lukaku/Werner 

Pulisic - Havertz - Mount 

Clearly, this formation suit Havertz and Pulisic. Mount as rw is not ideal but probably will be ok. In double pivot with back 4,we probably will need a new partner for Kante. CB wise, Rudiger looks like he is gone, Silva is clearly not our future, Christensen is still a question mark in back 4 same with Chalo. Chilwell is an automatic starter in back 4.

Defensively this is interesting, in 4231, we kinda need both wing to track back to be very2 solid, can Pulisic do this? 

 

10 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I like you said "Everyone will have different opinions" because this is everything, different formation will accentuate different player 

 

Lukaku/Werner 

Pulisic - Havertz - Mount 

Clearly, this formation suit Havertz and Pulisic. Mount as rw is not ideal but probably will be ok. In double pivot with back 4,we probably will need a new partner for Kante. CB wise, Rudiger looks like he is gone, Silva is clearly not our future, Christensen is still a question mark in back 4 same with Chalo. Chilwell is an automatic starter in back 4.

Defensively this is interesting, in 4231, we kinda need both wing to track back to be very2 solid, can Pulisic do this? 

 

I feel Pulisic can, staying healthy is his issue. CHO would make for good competition for him.

Ideal partner for Kante is Rice imo.

For the defence Chilwell and James as fullback, Chalobah and Christensen as CB, with Kounde signed to push one out likely.

4 hours ago, Gol15 said:

IMO T.Silva and Jorginho are very much capable of playing in any back 4 formation. Azpilicueta would struggle with pace as the RB but at this point him and James should rotate there so that shouldn't be a problem. PSG played a 4-3-3 against Man City and comfortably won the match just because they are offensively oriented and challenge Pep's team to open up if they dare to. We have Lukaku, Werner, Havertz that are all capable of destroying any opposition in a counter-attack or when the game is opened up but we never play like that.

PSG never comfortably beat Man City. I'm not sure how you can say that if you watched the match. And they won with very similar metrics (almost exactly) to how we beat City in the CL final - so in what way were they more offensive than us with 5 at the back in the final? The difference in system is almost irrelevant compared to the fact that we simply have too many key players going through a rough patch.

You say Werner, Lukaku and Havertz are capable of destroying teams on the counter as if Werner and Havertz are magically going to perform better. Werner has already had multiple opportunities to be effective on the counter and has fluffed every single one through bad technique or decision-making. 

PSG can play with 4 because it suits their best players. Our best and most consistent players are Mendy, Silva, Jorginho, Christensen, Rudiger, Kante, Azpi and Kova. 5 at the back suits the majority of them.

 

26 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Also is funny how every single player wenhave becomes so much better rated when they are not playing/ not able to play.

Bar Kante, who is at best fairly rated.

Haha that's always the case. Hypothetical formation changes also do wonders for player form and ability. 

No need to press the panic button yet, but sometimes it would be good to see Tuchel switch formation from time to time. Even when we are 1-0 down, we just stick with the same 3 at the back formation. Why not have more attackers and go 4-2-3-1? Because if we often switch up formation, may make it even more difficult to play against us due to our ability to change formation. It also seems to me that the 3-4-2-1 is not getting consistent performances from our attackers. Every single attacking midfielder/winger and striker seem to get lost and I am not saying it is purely down to formation, however I reckon they would look more fluid in a a natural attacking line up. Is it a coincidence that the defenders all seem to look very good in this formation but the attackers on other hand seem to struggle more? ...

Looking at the chances we created in the last 10-15, Havetz and Lukaku both should have scored and got us a point, if not all 3. So Tuchel's change actually made a difference, now he just have to keep playing a more attacking team in games to come. It's not panic time yet, but we must win this weekend or this far becoming a slump than a slip up.

All this talk of formations, goal scorers, individuals is all moot….

It makes very little difference, if the instructions are to play sideways, backwards, creep up to the edge of the 18 yard box - knock it back to rudiger, start again….

If those are the instructions, then they are trash and don’t work for us. We have done this to death - we are not good at playing this way.

If those are not the instructions, then the manager needs to drop those players who insist on playing this way. 

Last night Jorginho, Dave, Alonso, Ziyech and havertz all basically did the same thing - which was knock it backwards every time they go the ball, or at least take a touch inside/backwards first - before then playing safe. Too slow. Too safe.

The only players trying to drive things forward was kova and rudi - and they are clearly not the best suited for that. Lukaku was starved, and had very little to work off.

Its a mentality thing - last 10 mins we played with some urgency, were progressive and created chances.  That is what needs to happen from the start

 

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by nonotnowjim

I just can't see how we were trying to score a goal last night? I couldn't see how we were trying to create an opening.  

Lots of possession but most of our passes were around the half way line or a good 40 yards from goal. We'd push up to the final third only to play the ball back to the three defenders and start going nowhere fast again. 

Sometimes Lukaku, Ziyech and Havertz were almost within touching distance of one another, all occupying space somenear near the D of the 18 yard box. 

Lukaku kept making runs in behind the Juventus defence but no one was trying to play him in, almost all the passes were into feet rather than into space. 

Alonso kept drifting infield making us even more narrow and at one point he even ended up on the right wing after going walkabouts. I just don't understand the need for a wingback to stray that far from their starting position? 

That performance last night worried me. Too many players taking the safe, easy options all game long rather than trying to actually penertrate the Juventus defence. If Southampton set up deep on Saturday we'll once again struggle to score a goal. 

Lack of a wingback threat seems to be a big issue right now. Azpi and Alonso are not going to worry any teams offensively and Reece and an in-form Chilwell are big misses.

Not at all helped by the fact that everyone around Lukaku in attacking areas are taking turns doing their best Chuckle brothers impression. Ziyech looked good in pre-season but has been atrocious since, Havertz have been disappointing and so has Werner and Mount.

 

6 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I was talking with @Gol15

Of course, he want Jorginho to play. But you simply can't play Jorginho in double pivot. We have seen it under Lamp. 

That's just not true. How many matches did Lampard play a 4-4-2? I mean he took out Jorginho, Alonso, Rudiger, played a 4-3-3 and lost his job. Tuchel came put them all back and won the CL. Are you now going to tell me that Jorginho can't play in a 4-3-3 too?

1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Lukaku kept making runs in behind the Juventus defence but no one was trying to play him in, almost all the passes were into feet rather than into space. 

There is no space behind because were camped in their half.

High possession does not suit Lukaku at all.

The Juventus defenders loved playing against himlast night, he was always exactly where they expected him to be, an honest center forwards position, nothing complicated, very conventional.

At times i counted 18 players in and around the Juventus D area, you could of threw a blanket over maybe 12 players in that central area on the edge of the Juventus box, it's all because we have a conventional center forward that were trying to set up, and the defenders are all over it like a pot of honey.

I hate to say it but we have become predictable and i don't see any end to it soon.

5 hours ago, venom2011 said:

PSG never comfortably beat Man City. I'm not sure how you can say that if you watched the match. And they won with very similar metrics (almost exactly) to how we beat City in the CL final - so in what way were they more offensive than us with 5 at the back in the final? The difference in system is almost irrelevant compared to the fact that we simply have too many key players going through a rough patch.

You say Werner, Lukaku and Havertz are capable of destroying teams on the counter as if Werner and Havertz are magically going to perform better. Werner has already had multiple opportunities to be effective on the counter and has fluffed every single one through bad technique or decision-making. 

PSG can play with 4 because it suits their best players. Our best and most consistent players are Mendy, Silva, Jorginho, Christensen, Rudiger, Kante, Azpi and Kova. 5 at the back suits the majority of them.

 

I think that our formation is also a reason why our players are going through a rough patch. I wasn't the only one that thought by the end of last season that Tuchel should try to play a back 4 formation, even back then some people here thought that we need a plan B much before our current tactic gets figured out. Allegri deliberately let us have the possession and waited for a chance and he succeeded, this wasn't a result due to our players not being motivated or whatever, it was a tactical loss.

Werner is more effective with more space and when he can use his pace and Lukaku under Conte was scoring lots of goals in counter-attacks so it's not anything far fetched. PSG has Messi, Mbappe, Neymar trio that doesn't really track back but even so they could defend well against Man City, there is no reason why we shouldn't be able to defend well too, the players that benefit the most from our current system are Alonso and Rudiger. Mendy has shown that he can make great saves even when our defense fails to do their job, T.Silva is still capable of playing in a back 4.

I think that as good as we have been defensively it won't matter much from now on when better teams have learned to stay patient against us. In the last 2 games we didn't create nearly enough to warrant this system. Last season Tuchel did an amazing job with very limited time but right now there is no real excuse to make, we are too weak going forward.

The starters let themselves down last night, and we were noticeably better when Chilwell, Chalobah, RLC, CHO and Barkley came on.

But I bet none of them start against Southampton !

 

I've always believed there is a lot to be said about an "English spine" or some derivative of it. Hope TT was paying attention ! 

I think the current formation is the best for squad we have. Kante and Kovacic aren't great in a 3, Jorginho lack of speed gets more exposed in a back four. Azpi is suited to a RCB in a 3, Alonso is poor as a LB. The problem we have is the current number 10's just aren't producing.

Ziyech was poor when we played in a 433, Havertz has been poor, Pulisic is always injured, Mount has started the season slowly, Werner is best playing centre forward. And CHO hasn't been giving much of a chance. If we can those attacking players performing better and more consistently i think we will be fine.

After last night I won't lie I was very disappointed not so much in the result but, at the same thing we have seen from our team again and again. More often than not we lack the entertainment factor.

I don't mind having tight games but, only if we win. Obviously we would all love to blow teams away 3,4 even 5-0 but, it's just not happening at the moment.

I watched almost every other UCL game and all the other teams attack so quickly and fluid to score goals why are we so slow and laboured? I'm convinced there is 3 reasons.

1 not enough players make runs behind the defense in transition.

2. Not enough players have the confidence or the quality to play passes between the lines in transition or through a packed box.

3. The formation plays fewer attackers so by virtue fewer natural goalscorers and advanced playmakers.

Conclusion 2 came about from 2 or 3 passages of play down the left involving Hakim and Marcos. Ball played to Alonso in transition there's only 2 defensive players on the left hand side and a gap opens through the middle rather than play Hakim in through the gap twice Marcos played the past down the wing. We see this way too often.

I don't buy this squad cannot play 4atb we have 4cbs, 2lbs and 2 rbs. I'm sorry but, there has to be a variation that works. Same with the midfield we don't have to move away from the pivot we could play 4231 if 433 feels to open. Kante, Kova and Jorginho could all play in the dm roles and potentially Barkley and Mount too.

In the Am role Kai, Ruben, Ross, Mason, Christian, Hakim and even Werner can operate. On the left the same can be said but add in CHO who can also play on the right.

Heck you can even play Alonso LAM as some sort of asymmetrical 2030 advanced footballing tactic idk but, the point is everyone has opinions on the matter including Tuchel and whilst he is the expert until he actually tries something, anything else all it ever will be is theory.

But, my theory is we need more cooks or chefs in the kitchen=more natural creative players on at the same time. Before the wheels came off sure we conceded under Frank but, we also scored quite a few goals a game too where has the link up play gone? 

We scored more goals because we allowed opposing teams to come onto us more. By controlling the game as much as we do we always run the risk to be countered and subsequently shut out by our opponents.

We saw two starkly different approaches from Pep and Allegri yet they both worked. Either press us to death or pack the box either way we will struggle.

How can we have 16 shots but only 1 on target? What that tells me is Juve defend well but, we are also lacking the right players to pick the lock. Barkley played in Rom with a good ball and that was sorely missing throughout the game.

 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

I think that our formation is also a reason why our players are going through a rough patch. I wasn't the only one that thought by the end of last season that Tuchel should try to play a back 4 formation, even back then some people here thought that we need a plan B much before our current tactic gets figured out. Allegri deliberately let us have the possession and waited for a chance and he succeeded, this wasn't a result due to our players not being motivated or whatever, it was a tactical loss.

Werner is more effective with more space and when he can use his pace and Lukaku under Conte was scoring lots of goals in counter-attacks so it's not anything far fetched. PSG has Messi, Mbappe, Neymar trio that doesn't really track back but even so they could defend well against Man City, there is no reason why we shouldn't be able to defend well too, the players that benefit the most from our current system are Alonso and Rudiger. Mendy has shown that he can make great saves even when our defense fails to do their job, T.Silva is still capable of playing in a back 4.

I think that as good as we have been defensively it won't matter much from now on when better teams have learned to stay patient against us. In the last 2 games we didn't create nearly enough to warrant this system. Last season Tuchel did an amazing job with very limited time but right now there is no real excuse to make, we are too weak going forward.

That's not correct in the slightest. It's painfully obvious that the energy levels have been lacking in some matches recently and key players are dallying on the ball and taking too many touches - confidence levels are also a little low. When/if that happens the tactical side becomes irrelevant. 

Again, it's always great to make an argument for something we've yet to see and then make sweeping statements like 'there is no reason why it shouldn't work'. PSG defended okay, but it wasn't near our performances when we are on song. And as I've said, they have players suited to a 4. PSG have Marquinhos, Kimpembe, Hakimi and Mendes - all of them athletic and suited to a four. Then they had 3 defensive midfielders in front of them. City still dominated the match in possession and quality+quantity of chances (1.97xG to PSG's 0.48).

But let's play the hypothetical 4 at the back game:

Chilwell, James, Rudiger, Christensen/Silva. 

Compare that to:

Trent, Matip, Van Dyk and Robertson

Cancelo, Laporte, Dias, Walker

Shaw, McGuire, Varane, AWB

So we've moved from having the best defense to being 3rd/4th in a four. Also can't play Jorginho regularly without being smashed on the counter.

And the point of this is to bring in another attacker, so for comparison again (2-man mid for simplicity):

Havertz, Mount, Ziyech/Werner

Sancho/Rashford, Fernandes, Greenwood

Grealish, KDB, Bernardo Silva

Mane, Salah, Elliot/Jones

Again we are 3rd/4th at best and it looks even worse if we control for a 3-man midfield instead. I also prefer the 4-3-3 but I don't want (or expect) Tuchel to change it with the current personnel and when the current individual issues exist.

28 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

1 not enough players make runs behind the defense in transition.

2. Not enough players have the confidence or the quality to play passes between the lines in transition or through a packed box.

3. The formation plays fewer attackers so by virtue fewer natural goalscorers and advanced playmakers.

Conclusion 2 came about from 2 or 3 passages of play down the left involving Hakim and Marcos. Ball played to Alonso in transition there's only 2 defensive players on the left hand side and a gap opens through the middle rather than play Hakim in through the gap twice Marcos played the past down the wing. We see this way too often.

 

 

I could do regular match compilations showing that point 1 happens often enough and not only during transition phases. But because of point 2, it's all for nothing. For instance, I rewatched the Tottenham match specifically looking at the runs from Lukaku et al. and the number of ignored runs is quite staggering still - as you allude to in your Alonso and Hakim bit. It always reminds me of when just Torres arrived, regularly making great runs, and having Malouda and Kalou behind him.

17 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

That's not correct in the slightest. It's painfully obvious that the energy levels have been lacking in some matches recently and key players are dallying on the ball and taking too many touches - confidence levels are also a little low. When/if that happens the tactical side becomes irrelevant. 

Again, it's always great to make an argument for something we've yet to see and then make sweeping statements like 'there is no reason why it shouldn't work'. PSG defended okay, but it wasn't near our performances when we are on song. And as I've said, they have players suited to a 4. PSG have Marquinhos, Kimpembe, Hakimi and Mendes - all of them athletic and suited to a four. Then they had 3 defensive midfielders in front of them. City still dominated the match in possession and quality+quantity of chances (1.97xG to PSG's 0.48).

But let's play the hypothetical 4 at the back game:

Chilwell, James, Rudiger, Christensen/Silva. 

Compare that to:

Trent, Matip, Van Dyk and Robertson

Cancelo, Laporte, Dias, Walker

Shaw, McGuire, Varane, AWB

So we've moved from having the best defense to being 3rd/4th in a four. Also can't play Jorginho regularly without being smashed on the counter.

And the point of this is to bring in another attacker, so for comparison again (2-man mid for simplicity):

Havertz, Mount, Ziyech/Werner

Sancho/Rashford, Fernandes, Greenwood

Grealish, KDB, Bernardo Silva

Mane, Salah, Elliot/Jones

Again we are 3rd/4th at best and it looks even worse if we control for a 3-man midfield instead. I also prefer the 4-3-3 but I don't want (or expect) Tuchel to change it with the current personnel and when the current individual issues exist.

The Bournemouth/City games aside we were actually pretty solid defensively under Sarri and that was with Kepa, Alonso and Luiz playing every week. Even under Frank we looked solid with Silva and Edou. I really don't think reverting to 433/4231 will be the defensive disaster many think, especially under a manager as clued up as Tuchel. 

The main issue with persisting with back 3 is the wingbacks, bar an inconsistent Alonso we simply don't have a specialist in that area.

2 minutes ago, Argo said:

The Bournemouth/City games aside we were actually pretty solid defensively under Sarri and that was with Kepa, Alonso and Luiz playing every week. Even under Frank we looked solid with Silva and Edou. I really don't think reverting to 433/4231 will be the defensive disaster many think, especially under a manager as clued up as Tuchel. 

The main issue with persisting with back 3 is the wingbacks, bar an inconsistent Alonso we simply don't have a specialist in that area.

The point is not that we wouldn't be reasonably solid, but that we would certainly be less solid for a miniscule gain - if any, going forward. Sarri also had the benefit of having peak Kante in the midfield and a younger Azpi in defense. Willian was also the best defensive winger in the league. James is not Azpi and no one touches Kante.

Agreed on the wingbacks although James is fine there. Hakimi would have been ideal.

At the end of the day regarding the current title challengers, I'd rather be 1st in defense and 4th in attack than 3rd in both. Only one of those options can possibly result in a league win.

10 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Also is funny how every single player wenhave becomes so much better rated when they are not playing/ not able to play.

Bar Kante, who is at best fairly rated.

Certainly a great example of this is Mason Mount in the last couple of games. Without a doubt a key player for us when on form. But so far this season he has looked off form and in need of rest. While he always gives 100% energy I am not sure he was as missed as much as that in the last couple of games. Kante for sure was a big miss last night. 

11 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Certainly is a little early to call it for sure, but I just have that same feeling about it again, as I did for Jose mark 2 and Lamps. Much as I wanted them to stay, be trusted to work through it even with short term pain, in the end we knew Roman would act.

TT comments about how things looked fine beforehand but did not work out in the game seems a little similar to Jose and his being "betrayed" and Lamps echoing something similar.

That is the road I think we have started walking sadly. Hope I am wrong but I think he won't be here next season and may be gpne before it.

I was also a little concerned about his post-match comments for the same reason. In his short time at the club Tuchel's greatest success has been getting results in key games. The style of play hasn't always been great to watch but we have mostly come up with the results in the big games and that went a big way towards delivering the Champions League, along with a good record in games against the big rivals. However we all know that managers at Chelsea are only as good as their recent games, and scrutiny will quickly build if the results go South. A key patch of games approaching for Tuchel's Chelsea career. Perhaps the international break is coming at the right time for once as it will give him a chance to regroup.