Just now, Strider6003 said:

That was the best I have seen Ziyech play for us.

He forced De Gea to make a save and set Mount off on his run into box that almost resulted in a goal.

He looks too relaxed at times and that may be why people don't rate him. 

To me yesterday he was decent though switched off a couple of times.

 

Far from decent Strider.

He did improve in the second half, but that's only because it would be hard to be worse than he was in the first 45.  Constantly lost possession, had United players go by him with ease, knocked off the ball - too lightweight. At HT everyone was expecting him to be subbed.

He got in a good position for the shot on goal but having done so, should have scored - albeit, decent save by De Gea. He HAS to do more to warrant more starts.

1 minute ago, Nibs said:

He HAS to do more to warrant more starts.

I think that goes for all our forward players except Mount, none of them are firing properly.

18 minutes ago, Slojo said:

In a team such as this, that's not creating a great deal of chances, I don't think you can underestimate the job he's done in the limited game time he's had. 

I think he's been very reliable. 

Well done you then.

5 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

I think that goes for all our forward players except Mount, none of them are firing properly.

Mount is not really firing properly either due to his age, he always works hard but in the final third he goes missing just as the rest...

24 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

That was the best I have seen Ziyech play for us.

He forced De Gea to make a save and set Mount off on his run into box that almost resulted in a goal.

He looks too relaxed at times and that may be why people don't rate him. 

To me yesterday he was decent though switched off a couple of times.

 

Sorry Strider, I usually agree with and support your views but I didn’t see what you saw - I watched the same game as Nibs ?

Edited March 1, 20215 yr by Paddy

3 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

I think that goes for all our forward players except Mount, none of them are firing properly.

Yeah, true. As I said elsewhere, cannot remember a time in recent CFC history where we looked so toothless and goals look hard so come by.

But at least the likes of Mount and Werner put themselves about and make a nuisance of themselves. Ziyech just looks like a luxury we can ill afford. 

Edited March 1, 20215 yr by Nibs

13 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Well done you then.

Lol I'm just saying, I think we can all agree he shouldn't be our number 1, but for his very role I think he's done a great job this season, he has 11 goals in 23 games, and minutes wise he averages a goal per game. 

6 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Yeah, true. As I said elsewhere, cannot remember a time in recent CFC history where we looked so toothless and goals look hard so come by.

But at least the likes of Mount and Werner put themselves about and make a nuisance of themselves. Ziyech just looks like a luxury we can ill afford. 

I thought we were worse around 2010-2012 period when it came to attacking and scoring goals. Also Jose's 3rd season, we were pretty sh*t at creating chances then also. Not the most optimistic outlook but I've seen worse Chelsea teams. 

This is probably the most passive we've looked though, from what I can remember. 

11 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Lol I'm just saying, I think we can all agree he shouldn't be our number 1, but for his very role I think he's done a great job this season, he has 11 goals in 23 games, and minutes wise he averages a goal per game. 

Slojo, I’ve already said that Oli does a job for us.

However, stats can make the figures suit the ‘argument’ as is borne out by; 

...........he has 11 goals in 23 games, and minutes wise he averages a goal per game. 

The above may well be true, but there enough games this season where he has played with little or no effect , like yesterday for example, so I struggle with him being considered reliable or consistent.

I don’t mind, btw, that you consider Oli to be so, but I don’t and I especially don’t get that you reject RJ for inclusion in the same category ? 

For the record, I don’t mind him as a player and I love him when he scores beauties like v AM last week, or diving headers against the arsewipes in European finals. 

18 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Slojo, I’ve already said that Oli does a job for us.

However, stats can make the figures suit the ‘argument’ as is borne out by; 

...........he has 11 goals in 23 games, and minutes wise he averages a goal per game. 

The above may well be true, but there enough games this season where he has played with little or no effect , like yesterday for example, so I struggle with him being considered reliable or consistent.

I don’t mind, btw, that you consider Oli to be so, but I don’t and I especially don’t get that you reject RJ for inclusion in the same category ? 

For the record, I don’t mind him as a player and I love him when he scores beauties like v AM last week, or diving headers against the arsewipes in European finals. 

I just think strikers get a bit more leeway tbf. James was excellent this season, but lately his form has dipped, particularly with the back 5. 

35 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I just think strikers get a bit more leeway tbf. James was excellent this season, but lately his form has dipped, particularly with the back 5. 

There was certainly one game that I remember where RJ was definitely ‘off’ , but that apart I think he has been the absolute definition of reliability and consistency - imo ?

I think his main issue of late is being selected - TT seemed to initially favour cho , but after the v S’hampton and yesterday’s HT substitutions,  I wonder if cho’s defensive frailties have changed tommys mind ? 

I understand that this splits people’s thinking, but for me, RJ gets the right full or wing back position all day every day - c’est la gare I suppose ? 

 

Edited March 1, 20215 yr by Paddy

50 minutes ago, Paddy said:

There was certainly one game that I remember where RJ was definitely ‘off’ , but that apart I think he has been the absolute definition of reliability and consistency - imo ?

I think his main issue of late is being selected - TT seemed to initially favour cho , but after the v S’hampton and yesterday’s HT substitutions,  I wonder if cho’s defensive frailties have changed tommys mind ? 

I understand that this splits people’s thinking, but for me, RJ gets the right full or wing back position all day every day - c’est la gare I suppose ? 

RJ worries me defensively I think he loses concentration and forgets he still needs to get back and is prone to tacking from behind and conceding free kicks.

He is certainly strong running with the ball and strong running against an attacker defensibly.

His crosses for me are more quantity than quality though the odd one is decent. 

 

36 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

RJ worries me defensively I think he loses concentration and forgets he still needs to get back and is prone to tacking from behind and conceding free kicks.

He is certainly strong running with the ball and strong running against an attacker defensibly.

His crosses for me are more quantity than quality though the odd one is decent. 

 

It’s fascinating how we all see what we see in players and games and how, at times, we differ so ?

................RJ worries me defensively I think he loses concentration and forgets he still needs to get back.......

that description is entirely cho to me !!

He can have moments (he’s still only a pup with just about 40 odd appearances) , but I don’t see any obvious major flaws in RJ’s defending, instead, especially one v one, I see an incredibly strong, robust and determined individual who rarely loses the contest or gets bested , who is accomplished and comfortable with the ball and not scared of responsibility.

I believe one of his strongest traits is his ability to be completely concentrated for the entire 90 minutes.

I think the amount of quality crosses he delivers is , generally , acceptable and some of them are real beauties, but it’s an area to work on.

If I have to pick on areas for improvement for a 21 year old, aside from continual improvement/evolution that comes with time/age, would be for him to have more strikes from distance, he’s got a great dig on him and also to practice and use his left foot more for crosses and shooting, it gives him and the team an advantage and keeps the opponent guessing.

Critically, I think he is guilty, at times, of passing backwards/sideways too often.

We couldn’t be more diametrically opposed if we tried 🤷‍♂️  

 

 

4 hours ago, Slojo said:

I thought we were worse around 2010-2012 period when it came to attacking and scoring goals.

No? Really? That was Carlo's second season right? Then Di Matteo. What notable periods are you thinking about in those two years?

1 hour ago, Paddy said:

It’s fascinating how we all see what we see in players and games and how, at times, we differ so ?

................RJ worries me defensively I think he loses concentration and forgets he still needs to get back.......

that description is entirely cho to me !!

He can have moments (he’s still only a pup with just about 40 odd appearances) , but I don’t see any obvious major flaws in RJ’s defending, instead, especially one v one, I see an incredibly strong, robust and determined individual who rarely loses the contest or gets bested , who is accomplished and comfortable with the ball and not scared of responsibility.

I believe one of his strongest traits is his ability to be completely concentrated for the entire 90 minutes.

I think the amount of quality crosses he delivers is , generally , acceptable and some of them are real beauties, but it’s an area to work on.

If I have to pick on areas for improvement for a 21 year old, aside from continual improvement/evolution that comes with time/age, would be for him to have more strikes from distance, he’s got a great dig on him and also to practice and use his left foot more for crosses and shooting, it gives him and the team an advantage and keeps the opponent guessing.

Critically, I think he is guilty, at times, of passing backwards/sideways too often.

We couldn’t be more diametrically opposed if we tried 🤷‍♂️  

 

 

James has HUGE, HUGE potential but still a lot to learn tactically and mentally. He is doing well when we press up, but he has moments when he does not withstand the pressure. I always have emotions when i see him in the 18-yard box. Maybe it's just me, don't know, i have fears. Fears are no good, i will seek help. Still has to learn and having Azpi and Silva there i thnik it helps him develop as a player. Frank did a good job promoting him, i think he will make a big impact for Chelsea in years to come. But still, let's not get drunk with cold water in this season.

Defensively, sure RJ is better than CHO, but I don't think CHO knew what hit him when Tuchel asked him to play as wb. We didn't know either. I personally remembered Moses and searched Google to see how he was doing in those covid-19 days.

Good point with shooting from distance, given that our midfielders shoot as if they had wooden legs with square corners.

6 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

That was the best I have seen Ziyech play for us.

He forced De Gea to make a save and set Mount off on his run into box that almost resulted in a goal.

He looks too relaxed at times and that may be why people don't rate him. 

To me yesterday he was decent though switched off a couple of times.

 

I am not sure he is suited playing thay rigid right sided am.

 

9 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Mount is not really firing properly either due to his age, he always works hard but in the final third he goes missing just as the rest...

Was about to ask the question; is he really firing? Output is really poor

RJ  is good but doesn’t have the pace of CHO or the willingness to take a man on and he has certainly had some lapses positionally and otherwise in defence. 
 

I get laughed at all the time but for that one season in my view Moses was our standout wing back. But that’s ancient history, it’s cho for me now, and RJ is a great alternative. 

18 minutes ago, ozboy said:

RJ  is good but doesn’t have the pace of CHO or the willingness to take a man on and he has certainly had some lapses positionally and otherwise in defence. 
 

I get laughed at all the time but for that one season in my view Moses was our standout wing back. But that’s ancient history, it’s cho for me now, and RJ is a great alternative. 

Reece isn't a wb. His game is suited more of a rb.He prefer to deliver his cros from deepnand stay back similar to trent

 

16 hours ago, abramovich said:

Our attack have been letting the team down all season. One may argue they were the biggest reason Frank was sacked. In my memory, going back twenty years I don't remember us being so toothless in front of goal, and given the money spent on attacking talent, frankly it's embarrassing.

We let go of Willian, Pedro, Barkley and Batshuayi because Pulisic, CHO, Ziyech, Havertz and Werner on paper looked like a massive upgrade. So far, with the exception of CHO who looked decent but not spectacular, everybody on that list has been various shades of sh*t. Werner started brightly but faded and lost confidence. Ziyech so far has looked lazy, out of place in the EPL and a waste of money.  Pulisic who despite injuries was our most exciting attacker last season, has been shockingly poor. Havertz is still an enigma, clearly a talent, but nowhere near ready to be a difference maker at this point in time for this team. CHO for all the plaudits looked better than the rest but his decision making in the last third has been just as poor. I was hoping for Tammy to improve and make claim for the starting striker role this season but I feel he has too many flaws in his game to develop into a world class centre forward. He runs a lot but he's never where he needs to be, he's tall but he can't head the ball worth sh*t, and is not strong enough to hold up the ball effectively. His stats aren't bad but he's non-factor against quality opponents. In fact, apart from speed and age, he's inferior to Giroud (who's no world beater himself) in every other aspect.

Thank God for Mount dragging this team forward on his young shoulders almost all on his own, and a 34-year old Giroud for his ability to score some important goals seemingly out of nowhere or we would have been even on a depper mess than we're at the moment.

👏

7 hours ago, Mod Stark said:

No? Really? That was Carlo's second season right? Then Di Matteo. What notable periods are you thinking about in those two years?

In Carlo's second season we looked great the first month when we were playing once a week and riding the crest of the title wave but after that we looked really stagnant and deviod of creativity. The double winning team pretty much stagnated at the same time, Malouda, Kalou and Anelka turned so bad so suddenly they were branded Kaloudanelka as a joke/coping mechanism, Drogba got malaria and was never the same again, Lampard lost his sheer consistency, Essien turned into a Championship level player, Ash lost his attacking threat, Bosingwa was Bosingwa. The only players that didn't have a massive nosedive from the previous year were Cech, Ivan (at right back) and Terry. We had no control on games even against the weakest opponents and were getting by largely due to Cech having his best season in the Chelsea colours and that we were clinical and by in large took whatever little chances we created. I don't think I can ever remember such a lack of urgency in a Chelsea side before or since (even with our safe/controlled football currently we've raised the tempo late on in games we ain't winning), at times it was outrageous, many games we were meant to be chasing we cruised like we were 5-0 up (which is ironic because the previous season when we were actually 5-0 up we kept going with the verve and urgency like we were chasing the game to get our 7 and 8's). We scored 23 goals in the first 5 games and for the rest of the season a mere 46 in 33. Our first five games and Cech's form was holding us like Viagra all season, our numbers for the rest of the campaign was genuinely upper midtable stuff.

I remember the summer of 2011 I never saw the fanbase on the same page as we all were, I meet two Chelsea fans abroad that summer and when the convo turned to transfer targets we all said "creativity and width" in sync at the same time. We were as a fanbase universally begging for a creative midfielder and a pair of wingers and unbelievably we started the new season with no new signings on the pitch and it was more of the same in the 0-0 at Stoke and then the 2-1 at home to West Brom. Third game in we were suffering an equally excruciating game against Norwich which was 1-1 on the hour until finally we got a new boy on the pitch in Mata, which helped us scrape another late unconvincing win.

Then with Mata on the pitch and Sturridge back from suspension (to an extent Meireles in the side too) things looked a lot better for a bit. We finally had a bit of creativity and urgency in the side and that combined with AVB's infamous high line meant we were finally creating a sustainable amount of chances again (still had trouble controlling games however), AVB was well aware how fragile this was though hence him taking Mata off when the games were safe (sometimes when they weren't) to preserve him. However not long after AVB dropped the high line to get quick fixes in beating Valencia and City we reverted back to the stale football that was being played the previous season and it was probably even worse, 3 wins in 12, 15 points and only 14 goals scored (3 against eventually relegated Bolton) which led to AVB's sacking. Then we had Robbie as caretaker and while he rallied the troops in the cups (understatement) the improvement in the league was minimul, 5 wins in the last 11, 18 goals in those games (6 of them against QPR) and the same number of points and arguably the performances got worse, I remember one game away to Fulham I did player ratings and just did Cech and the defense, didn't even bother with the midfield and strikers.

I guess Munich made it all worth it in the end (but unlike after the double season there was no illusions from any corner that we didn't need strengthening despite the success) but the football for the bulk of those two season's was utterly awful. Anyone who wanted Sarri out because of the football but were equally against Carlo and/or AVB's sackings after what they served up on 10/11 and 11/12 respectively are hugely contradicting themselves in my opinion.

Edited March 2, 20215 yr by Argo

14 hours ago, coco said:

Easy to say after he had just 15 minutes, if it was over 90 minutes -on recent form- i would say high chance he is involved in a goal, especially with utds defenders so far away from their box. I hope he realises if were going to get top 4 this season, it'll depend on Werner being involved in every game, and definitely against our peers.

I suspect that if we'd popped Werner on at half-time, or a bit later, united would have dropped back into their usual and expected "sit back and let Fernandes steal a penalty or Rashford run very fast" tactic.  Then we'd have been equally as toothless.

10 hours ago, Paddy said:

............................................................... - c’est la gare I suppose ? 

 

Euston, we have a problem.

2 hours ago, Argo said:

In Carlo's second season we looked great the first month when we were playing once a week and riding the crest of the title wave but after that we looked really stagnant and deviod of creativity. The double winning team pretty much stagnated at the same time,

Not wanting to retread old ground too much in the Tuchel thread by the club badly let Carlo down with tranfers (a recurring theme for our successful managers) going into that second season. 

We allowed all of Carvalho, Deco, Ballack, Joe Cole and Belletti to leave during the summer. 

Our summer recruitment consisted of Ramires and Yossi Benayoun. So much experience and quality left and wasn't replaced. Ramires was so far from the finished article when we bought him, he was only 22 I think and no way was he ready to step into the hole left by Ballack, Deco and Belletti in the midfield. 

Then when we were behind in the title race, come January we had the "panic" buys of David Luiz and Torres to try and salvage the season. 

8 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Not wanting to retread old ground too much in the Tuchel thread by the club badly let Carlo down with tranfers (a recurring theme for our successful managers) going into that second season. 

We allowed all of Carvalho, Deco, Ballack, Joe Cole and Belletti to leave during the summer. 

Our summer recruitment consisted of Ramires and Yossi Benayoun. So much experience and quality left and wasn't replaced. Ramires was so far from the finished article when we bought him, he was only 22 I think and no way was he ready to step into the hole left by Ballack, Deco and Belletti in the midfield. 

Then when we were behind in the title race, come January we had the "panic" buys of David Luiz and Torres to try and salvage the season. 

I remember the joy I felt at swapping the absolute talent of Joe Cole, for the absolute sh*t of Yossi Benayoun! What an absolutely terrible player!

9 hours ago, Mod Stark said:

No? Really? That was Carlo's second season right? Then Di Matteo. What notable periods are you thinking about in those two years?

In Carlo's 2nd period I remember us having a very uncreative team with no pace at all. Malouda finished the season as our top scorer with 12 or goals something like that. I have no idea how we managed to finish 2nd, Carlo did an an amazing job. And 2012 the AVB period especially was painful, not the Di Matteo bit obviously.