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Chelsea v Brighton (PL) Tue 20th Apr 2021 20:00 GMT


coco
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7 hours ago, Dean said:

But there is no such pattern. Tonight was dreadful - a worse performance than vs WBA imo. But our last performance against a lower team, Crystal Palace, was excellent. And I’d say these last two games taken together are pretty reflective of the overall picture - it’s more like 50/50, we play well in about half of them.
 

It’s not ideal but, to answer your question about “what hope do we have of top 4” etc, give it time. We’re actually doing better than that on a pro rata basis since Tuchel arrived. We were in 10th place and our chances of top 4 looked bleak. Bigger picture, the trend is positive and I’m going to risk making a fool of myself by saying I think we’ll not only finish comfortably in the top 4 next season, but will be challenging for the title.

 And it’s not true what you say about everyone being in the same boat. We just played back-to-back gruelling, very important matches while Brighton didn’t. 

Not sure it is 50-50. We pretty much struggle to create against all of them except palace and maybe Newcastle. 

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40 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Not sure it is 50-50. We pretty much struggle to create against all of them except palace and maybe Newcastle. 

I would ask you and all the naysayers this. What did/do you expect? Whatever expectations you had when Tuchel came in - has he surpassed those or has he fallen short? Did you think at the time of his appointment that we’d make the CL final, beating both Ateltico Madrid and Porto to get there? Did you expect we’d be in the FA cup final, dispatching Manchester City for the privilege?

An enormous amount of work and energy has gone into getting these results. And yes that has come at a small at a cost, albeit one which is eminently fixable (more on that below) and that’s a slightly subpar tally against the lower teams. You simply can’t maintain the same energy level over all these games... or you can’t do it without incurring other costs, such as severe injuries to key players.

 I would also reiterate that our record vs lower placed teams looks worse than it is precisely because our record against the top teams has been nothing short of extraordinary. But the congenital pessimists choose to focus solely on the bad results against lower teams “pattern”. Nobody, not even the most naive optimist, would have predicted that we’d beat all the quality opposition we played (every single team) bar United, who we drew with. 
 

Trust me, it’s SO much better this way round. Or would you prefer it if we went out to Atletico in second round CL, lost to Liverpool and Everton, but beat Brighton 5-0? The reason it’s better this way round is bleeding obvious but I’ll say it anyway. If we’re good enough to beat the best, we will, given time, start routinely beating and outplaying the lower quality opposition too. Tuchel has achieved an awful lot in his short tenure. But you can’t expect everything at once. I do despair at times at the negativity. And I’m not even that much of an optimist myself. 

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11 hours ago, The Rising Sun said:

Talking about your own mother like that ?

You happy about that mate ?

?

He’s a Scummer, they’ve no morals in that part of the world.
 

He’s even that thick he can’t work out you can select and change to a lower quality image when uploading them to significantly reduce the file size. 

Edited by Munkworth
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Hugely disappointing result. The announcement about is pulling out of the ESL came before the game kicked off so I thought would have cheered everyone up and given them a bounce. 
 

Seems not. Tuchel said he was distracted by ESL convos and the players were. Surely he should have tried to drill it out of them??

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10 minutes ago, JM7 said:

Hugely disappointing result. The announcement about is pulling out of the ESL came before the game kicked off so I thought would have cheered everyone up and given them a bounce. 
 

Seems not. Tuchel said he was distracted by ESL convos and the players were. Surely he should have tried to drill it out of them??

Nothing was confirmed.

And even if it had been, imagine being convinced that the match means nothing at all for 48 hours only for it to change and suddenly it means a lot 45 minutes before it's about to kick off. Don't think you can expect players and manager to not be massively affected by that.

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12 hours ago, The Rising Sun said:

Talking about your own mother like that ?

You happy about that mate ?

?

How do you know his mother is deserving of respect ? She may have dumped at birth in a bin at Paddington station and went on the razz.

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19 minutes ago, coco said:

How do you know his mother is deserving of respect ? She may have dumped at birth in a bin at Paddington station and went on the razz.

People from Southampton aren’t born - they ascend from the depths of Hell.

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57 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

I feel that people are just trying to look for excuses for that performance. The performance had very little to do with the ESL nonsense. If that was a one off, you would have a much better argument, but it wasn't. We have played like that multiple times in recent months.

Maybe and you have a point about other displays Scott. However senior players from our club have leaked to the press they were very concerned about being banned from their national teams and TT admitted it was a distraction on him and the players.

I personally dont see us bouncing back from this whole thing quickly and think our chances at top4, FA cup and CL are pretty much dead in the water.

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6 hours ago, coco said:

How do you know his mother is deserving of respect ? She may have dumped at birth in a bin at Paddington station and went on the razz.

Weirdos or misogynist .

Choose one. Cheers

 

Edited by The Rising Sun
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19 hours ago, Dean said:

I would ask you and all the naysayers this. What did/do you expect? Whatever expectations you had when Tuchel came in - has he surpassed those or has he fallen short? Did you think at the time of his appointment that we’d make the CL final, beating both Ateltico Madrid and Porto to get there? Did you expect we’d be in the FA cup final, dispatching Manchester City for the privilege?

An enormous amount of work and energy has gone into getting these results. And yes that has come at a small at a cost, albeit one which is eminently fixable (more on that below) and that’s a slightly subpar tally against the lower teams. You simply can’t maintain the same energy level over all these games... or you can’t do it without incurring other costs, such as severe injuries to key players.

 I would also reiterate that our record vs lower placed teams looks worse than it is precisely because our record against the top teams has been nothing short of extraordinary. But the congenital pessimists choose to focus solely on the bad results against lower teams “pattern”. Nobody, not even the most naive optimist, would have predicted that we’d beat all the quality opposition we played (every single team) bar United, who we drew with. 
 

Trust me, it’s SO much better this way round. Or would you prefer it if we went out to Atletico in second round CL, lost to Liverpool and Everton, but beat Brighton 5-0? The reason it’s better this way round is bleeding obvious but I’ll say it anyway. If we’re good enough to beat the best, we will, given time, start routinely beating and outplaying the lower quality opposition too. Tuchel has achieved an awful lot in his short tenure. But you can’t expect everything at once. I do despair at times at the negativity. And I’m not even that much of an optimist myself. 

You make very fair points and Tuchel has achieved great results and surpassed most expectations.. But at the same time we at chelsea have had quite a few false dawns when it comes to managers that i assume the fanbase in general isnt the most giving when it comes to trusting decisions by managers.. they probably need to earn it.

With Tuchel also its the same process - it will take time for people to completely trust his methods and decisions. Which is why matches like today will get him criticism where we struggle to dispatch relegation fodder (forget lesser teams).  Also a lot of criticism is also being leveled against players - Ziyech and Jorgi and rightly so.. Because it was blingingly obvious that Ziyech was having a nightmare while Jorgi wasnt doing enough and playing at much slower pace than required.. 

Having said that i think the negativity that you see is largely reactionary to a poor result but in general the forum looks upbeat i would say. But again i think you make great points and we need to have more patience..

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6 hours ago, Jangz said:

You make very fair points and Tuchel has achieved great results and surpassed most expectations.. But at the same time we at chelsea have had quite a few false dawns when it comes to managers that i assume the fanbase in general isnt the most giving when it comes to trusting decisions by managers.. they probably need to earn it.

With Tuchel also its the same process - it will take time for people to completely trust his methods and decisions. Which is why matches like today will get him criticism where we struggle to dispatch relegation fodder (forget lesser teams).  Also a lot of criticism is also being leveled against players - Ziyech and Jorgi and rightly so.. Because it was blingingly obvious that Ziyech was having a nightmare while Jorgi wasnt doing enough and playing at much slower pace than required.. 

Having said that i think the negativity that you see is largely reactionary to a poor result but in general the forum looks upbeat i would say. But again i think you make great points and we need to have more patience..

Thanks for the reply. All great points and there’s nothing I disagree with. Taking my last point a bit further, I’m no optimist by nature. In fact, I find it much easier to be pessimistic. But i decided somewhere along the road that it’s no way to go to through life. Applying that to Chelsea / Tuchel etc, it’s easier to see the historical pattern - it’s not going to work out with Tuchel,  just as it didn’t work out with all the others - than to look for a potential break in the pattern (which in the context of Chelsea means a slightly longer cycle / tenure than the very short average). Granted, that probably won’t happen, and we can be pretty sure that EVENTUALLY it will end. But if one dwells on that too much, constantly anticipating the demise, and always second-guessing the good performances, how to enjoy any of it ever?. “That was a good performance, but I’m still not sold....”. 
 

Why not just let go and at least get some pleasure out of the wins. Criticise the bad performances as they happen by all means but try not to let them cloud the bigger picture, which for now looks pretty good. If that changes, worry about it then, not now. The same goes for the eventual inevitable demise .
 

Finally I agree that the forum is overall pretty upbeat. 

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On 21/04/2021 at 16:41, Dean said:

I would ask you and all the naysayers this. What did/do you expect? Whatever expectations you had when Tuchel came in - has he surpassed those or has he fallen short? Did you think at the time of his appointment that we’d make the CL final, beating both Ateltico Madrid and Porto to get there? Did you expect we’d be in the FA cup final, dispatching Manchester City for the privilege?

An enormous amount of work and energy has gone into getting these results. And yes that has come at a small at a cost, albeit one which is eminently fixable (more on that below) and that’s a slightly subpar tally against the lower teams. You simply can’t maintain the same energy level over all these games... or you can’t do it without incurring other costs, such as severe injuries to key players.

 I would also reiterate that our record vs lower placed teams looks worse than it is precisely because our record against the top teams has been nothing short of extraordinary. But the congenital pessimists choose to focus solely on the bad results against lower teams “pattern”. Nobody, not even the most naive optimist, would have predicted that we’d beat all the quality opposition we played (every single team) bar United, who we drew with. 
 

Trust me, it’s SO much better this way round. Or would you prefer it if we went out to Atletico in second round CL, lost to Liverpool and Everton, but beat Brighton 5-0? The reason it’s better this way round is bleeding obvious but I’ll say it anyway. If we’re good enough to beat the best, we will, given time, start routinely beating and outplaying the lower quality opposition too. Tuchel has achieved an awful lot in his short tenure. But you can’t expect everything at once. I do despair at times at the negativity. And I’m not even that much of an optimist myself. 

Although I am not big fan of our play style but the result has been good so far that is obvious. No one deny that

But back to the original discussion which is scoring. It is also very obvious that generally we have struggled to create under Tuchel against most team yet tons of people come out with excuses, energy, esl. If yesterday was one time thing sure, but it has been a clear trend since wolves game. 

IMO it is so obvious why. The reason lie on how Tuchel manage to drastically improve our defense. It is not like most people said, Lamp never coached defense and Tuchel coach defense and poof suddenly we looked better defensively. 

It is a combination of moving to back 5,heavy defensive possession, many player behind the ball, and structured offense. So 3 out of 4 factors are actually change in offense.

So if you give credit to Tuchel fixing our offense, you should also blame him for our offensive struggle. 

 

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34 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Although I am not big fan of our play style but the result has been good so far that is obvious. No one deny that

But back to the original discussion which is scoring. It is also very obvious that generally we have struggled to create under Tuchel against most team yet tons of people come out with excuses, energy, esl. If yesterday was one time thing sure, but it has been a clear trend since wolves game. 

IMO it is so obvious why. The reason lie on how Tuchel manage to drastically improve our defense. It is not like most people said, Lamp never coached defense and Tuchel coach defense and poof suddenly we looked better defensively. 

It is a combination of moving to back 5,heavy defensive possession, many player behind the ball, and structured offense. So 3 out of 4 factors are actually change in offense.

So if you give credit to Tuchel fixing our offense, you should also blame him for our offensive struggle. 

 

That is fair, credit and blame where they are both due.

Playing a false 9 instead of a striker does help us press and keep the ball better but also adds to inability to score enough.

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11 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

That is fair, credit and blame where they are both due.

Playing a false 9 instead of a striker does help us press and keep the ball better but also adds to inability to score enough.

The hopeful end product to that is that Pulisic and one of Ziyech/Mount/CHO numbers shoot up.

The one thing I'm disappointed with his use of the wingbacks, to make the formation work there needs to be a balance to it which means atleast one fullback playing a hybrid outside CB role and atleast one natural/original winger playing wingback. James/Chilwell is all well and good in the CL but in league games we really need to be seeing more of CHO and even Alonso there. The former two should be fighting to the hybrid places in the lesser type games.

It's no coincidence our most fluid attacking displays under TT has come with Callum playing one of the wings.

Edited by Argo
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1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

Although I am not big fan of our play style but the result has been good so far that is obvious. No one deny that

But back to the original discussion which is scoring. It is also very obvious that generally we have struggled to create under Tuchel against most team yet tons of people come out with excuses, energy, esl. If yesterday was one time thing sure, but it has been a clear trend since wolves game. 

IMO it is so obvious why. The reason lie on how Tuchel manage to drastically improve our defense. It is not like most people said, Lamp never coached defense and Tuchel coach defense and poof suddenly we looked better defensively. 

It is a combination of moving to back 5,heavy defensive possession, many player behind the ball, and structured offense. So 3 out of 4 factors are actually change in offense.

So if you give credit to Tuchel fixing our offense, you should also blame him for our offensive struggle. 

 

This is fair. All I can say is Rome wasn’t built in a day and organising the defence is probably the number one priority. While the factors you mention are correct, with better finishing/ decision-making in attack the stats would look better. I can think of at least two matches (Everton and Crystal Palace) where we created enough chances to score a lot more. converting more of those, plus maybe some tweaks to the formation if/when Tuchel feels comfortable to do so, should help going into next season, I hope. 

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