1 minute ago, Argo said:

Then why didn't we just keep Tammy?

Because for whatever reason the coach didn't like him, maybe he didn't change his pants enough? Add to that he is very much still a novice. The coach said he wanted a striker, that should be good enough for us... he's the one you'll be calling for the head of if it all goes tits up

44 minutes ago, Argo said:

Believe it or not I'm not against being proved wrong with Lukaku, I wanted Telles over Chilwell and thought 2017 was going to turn out to be a decent window so I'm not immune to the odd spectacular blunder nor holding my hands up when I've made one.

With Rom, he can win me round by doing three things.

A) Adapting to the system to the best of his ability.

B) Upping his work rate. The pros of giving Rom a Hazard/CR7 esque workrate excemption simply don't outweigh the cons.

C) Deliver the goods in clutch moments, I'm not saying he has to score in every big match and every final, but he disappears in far far too many of them.

Maybe I'm on another planet but for our record signing and earner I don't think that's asking too much.

It is not, but it is at the same time. Lukaku is the same player he was when we first signed him, he has never changed. Conte just got him in much better, muscle man shape and he took apart a weak league with the best side there.

Having not change except in appearance in 10 years is asking too much to expect he does now because we need him to. 

You spoke of RVN before, he is the left footed more muscular version of him imo.

1 hour ago, charierre said:

Because for whatever reason the coach didn't like him, maybe he didn't change his pants enough? Add to that he is very much still a novice. The coach said he wanted a striker, that should be good enough for us... he's the one you'll be calling for the head of if it all goes tits up

But that's the thing, having watched both many times down the years I don't think Lukaku is that much better, certainly not £62m better anyway.

Tammy certainly is not a novice anymore, he scored 30 goals in a season and a half and that was while being heavily rotated, for all his flaws he would have scored many goals if given the game time.

Just now, Argo said:

But that's the thing, having watched both many times down the years I don't think Lukaku is that much better, certainly not £62m better anyway.

Tammy certainly is not a novice anymore, he scored 30 goals in a season and a half and that was while being heavily rotated, for all his flaws he would have scored many goals if given the game time.

so it's the skid marks then? 

I wouldn't personally have gone for him but we now have him and it's up to us to make it work, adjust our tactical side. The price is totally irrespective, supporters get far too involved as to who is worth what and what wages they are on...all too much in my opinion but that is for another day.

6 hours ago, coco said:

So did Mutu, Morata, Veron, Remy, Pato, Willian, Deco, Malouda, Pizarro, ......

It's not all his fault i agree, however he does look terrible in areas where he can't blame anyone but himself, a bad first touch for instance, you can't blame Tuchel for that, also his reading of the game has been poor, he makes the wrong choices with regards where he needs to be to get on the end of a cross/pass. We need to see him improve in these areas before we can say for sure that it's the system to blame.

I would agree with you if there was a striker that is scoring goals for us, any striker, any role. But this isn't the reality, no matter who you put in the middle he isn't really dominating and scoring, part from the start of the season that Lukaku had.

I blame the system because if it changes I believe that several of our attackers would do better. But if I were to blame a person instead, it wouldn't be Lukaku because he is only here because Tuchel insisted that he gets here and because of Tuchel he got convinced to move away from Inter where he was having a great time. If Lukaku proves to be a flop by the end of this season, I will point the finger at Tuchel for making him a flop as well, it would be a 50-50 responsibility there.

Edited December 23, 20214 yr by Gol15

4 hours ago, Argo said:

BIB: exactly an option.

If we brought in Lukaku at a reasonable price to use when the tactical purpose suits I'd have absolutely no qualms. My main gripe is he simply has too many flaws to be an untouchable in a side looking to win the big two every year, especially a highly technical one.

We've brought him in to be the main man in a new era of a success despite the fact he's got next to no track record of delivering when it matters. Everton, Inter, United and Belgium he's pulled 0/10s in big semi's and finals repeatedly. Infact you can even date back to his first spell here and his horror show in the super cup (and I'm not just talking about the penalty).

And I don't like the idea that we had to get only him or Haaland, it's lazy recruiting. Imagine if we went for "big name" Onana over Edou?

But that goes outside of what happens on the pitch, his price was high because he is a proven goal scorer and because apparently Tuchel didn't want to settle for anything less than him. That you can't blame Lukaku for, but blame the man that wanted to get him no matter the price.

Last season Tuchel openly refused to play Tammy and he still ended the season with 12 goals in all competitions which was tied with Werner that played so many minutes more that I don't dare to check, but even so Werner scored only 2 goals under Tuchel last season.

In comparison, Giroud had in total 11 goals in total as a backup but he also scored only 2 goals under Tuchel.

Havertz scored 4 goals in over 1000 minutes played which is a bit more than 11 matches. That's pretty much a goal every 3rd game, similar to the injured Lukaku of this season.

He didn't make anyone better in that regard, our most consistent scorers so far this season are Jorginho and Mount with 7 goals in all competitions which isn't that much different from last season either.

At some point it should become really obvious that our current system isn't good enough when it comes to attacking. But Messi or Mbappe in the middle and I also could imagine him having a casual 3 goals in 10 matches, with the complaint that they don't work hard enough to press and what not...

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

It is not, but it is at the same time. Lukaku is the same player he was when we first signed him, he has never changed. Conte just got him in much better, muscle man shape and he took apart a weak league with the best side there.

Having not change except in appearance in 10 years is asking too much to expect he does now because we need him to. 

You spoke of RVN before, he is the left footed more muscular version of him imo.

Have you seen how Conte plays the back 3 at Spurs now? Suddenly Liverpool felt lucky to have played a draw against them with all the clear-cut chances that Spurs missed, mainly Kane and Son. In many cases it's the player that makes the manager, but the best managers make the best players, keep that in mind when you watch Lukaku the next time.

22 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Have you seen how Conte plays the back 3 at Spurs now? Suddenly Liverpool felt lucky to have played a draw against them with all the clear-cut chances that Spurs missed, mainly Kane and Son. In many cases it's the player that makes the manager, but the best managers make the best players, keep that in mind when you watch Lukaku the next time.

Blame on TT eh gol?

Now think about it, had Rom had all those Pens he would have 11 goals this season and many would be champion his signing.

3 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Blame on TT eh gol?

Now think about it, had Rom had all those Pens he would have 11 goals this season and many would be champion his signing.

I wouldn't base Lukaku on penalties but that's a weak straw to hang on to, we laughed at Man United under OGS when they were getting tons of penalties but now it results that we are so much of a need for them since we can't score from open play? So we have a designated penalty taker, it shouldn't make Jorginho once again our top scorer.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

I wouldn't base Lukaku on penalties but that's a weak straw to hang on to, we laughed at Man United under OGS when they were getting tons of penalties but now it results that we are so much of a need for them since we can't score from open play? So we have a designated penalty taker, it shouldn't make Jorginho once again our top scorer.

Cause festive Chelsea popped out on top of our other issues.

In that we are too slow, too ponderous and waste time keeping pointless possession only to give it away without making many chances and wasting the ones we did.

Best two chances yesterday? One own goal scored and one saved.

Is not just a TT thing, we have had the same issues under Frank, under Conte in season 2, under Jose mark 2 last season etc. 

Did all those managers ask the players to play like that or are our players just too passive?

44 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Cause festive Chelsea popped out on top of our other issues.

In that we are too slow, too ponderous and waste time keeping pointless possession only to give it away without making many chances and wasting the ones we did.

Best two chances yesterday? One own goal scored and one saved.

Is not just a TT thing, we have had the same issues under Frank, under Conte in season 2, under Jose mark 2 last season etc. 

Did all those managers ask the players to play like that or are our players just too passive?

Lampard at least had Tammy playing his first PL season and he was not older than 22. 15 goals + Pulisic and Willian 9 each and 5+ assists was a decent attack all things considered.

Conte failed to replace D.Costa and with that a significant chunk of goals got depleted but the season prior we scored a lot and we were champions. I don't think you can win the PL without a good working attack, you need more than 2 goals per game so more than 80 goals would put your squad in that conversation or it's at least playing attractive football.

As much as Tuchel improved our defense I'm afraid he'll end up in a lot of trouble if he doesn't create a good attack. We can't rely on Chilwell and James to win us games.

There is a reason why attacking players have always had the highest value and I'm afraid after wanting Lukaku that Tuchel doesn't have any excuse, Roman won't think twice remember that the big shift came after Conte, everyone that can pull the trigger want us to play attractive football.

The past managers show just how the manager matters, not the opposite. Tuchel needs to adapt or sell those that can't make this work but I'm afraid it's too early to say that Lukaku can't make it here.

Edited December 23, 20214 yr by Gol15

27 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Lampard at least had Tammy playing his first PL season and he was not older than 22. 15 goals + Pulisic and Willian 9 each and 5+ assists was a decent attack all things considered.

Conte failed to replace D.Costa and with that a significant chunk of goals got depleted but the season prior we scored a lot and we were champions. I don't think you can win the PL without a good working attack, you need more than 2 goals per game so more than 80 goals would put your squad in that conversation or it's at least playing attractive football.

As much as Tuchel improved our defense I'm afraid he'll end up in a lot of trouble if he doesn't create a good attack. We can't rely on Chilwell and James to win us games.

There is a reason why attacking players have always had the highest value and I'm afraid after wanting Lukaku that Tuchel doesn't have any excuse, Roman won't think twice remember that the big shift came after Conte, everyone that can pull the trigger want us to play attractive football.

The past managers show just how the manager matters, not the opposite. Tuchel needs to adapt or sell those that can't make this work but I'm afraid it's too early to say that Lukaku can't make it here.

@Argo , @abramovich and myself all said before he arrived it would not work out for him here.

Happy to be proven wrong and cannot speak for those two chaps Gol however I am sticking by what I said before.

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

@Argo , @abramovich and myself all said before he arrived it would not work out for him here.

Happy to be proven wrong and cannot speak for those two chaps Gol however I am sticking by what I said before.

The only fair thing is to wait till the end of the season before proclaiming that it's not working with Lukaku up top. Morata got a full season, it's only fair.

8 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Cause festive Chelsea popped out on top of our other issues.

In that we are too slow, too ponderous and waste time keeping pointless possession only to give it away without making many chances and wasting the ones we did.

Best two chances yesterday? One own goal scored and one saved.

Is not just a TT thing, we have had the same issues under Frank, under Conte in season 2, under Jose mark 2 last season etc. 

Did all those managers ask the players to play like that or are our players just too passive?

We played quite fast under frank.

In Conte 2nd season we had morata problem. Conte wanted his cf to be focal point, morata couldn't keep any ball whatsoever.

Under Tuchel so far we have played very controlled,slow possesion football. You can argue only mount and maybe CHO that has done well under Tuchel. IMHO Morata will be a good st for us right now. We rarely get the ball to our st quickly. We don't have winger who get the ball run at defender and then shoot. What we do most of the time, slowly bring the ball forward and then ask our wb  to make crosses.

Edited December 24, 20214 yr by Bob stark

I don't rate Lukaku - his touch, passing, heading and movement is all not what it should be....

...but....

....I also think that whichever striker we play up front, in this current system, in this league, we will struggle to see them score significant numbers of goals.

Our slow slow slow slow, knock it wide, knock it backwards, rinse repeat, tippy tappy nonsense, build up play, simply isnt conducive to any striker that thrives on space and pace. Whilst it may in other leagues, the EPL simply does not allow strikers the time or space for this. We have seen it with so many strikers, and I genuinely believe that we could have anyone up front, Lewa, Kane, Haaland, Ronny, Benzema  or any other elite striker - take your pick, and it wouldnt change.

As I see it, we have to do one of a number of things.

1) Keep playing Lukaku and adapt our game to suit him.  Stop with the possession based, slow build up, football, and move to a more direct, quick, counter based style. Although I think most of our players can do this, I dont see TT doing so.

2) Persevere with Lukaku, but keep our current style, accepting that it simply does not suit him. We would need to manage our expectations and accept that our wide players become the focal of our goalscoring (ala Liverscum or Citeh). Lukaku's inability to control  the ball, pass and assist would essentially see us playing with 1 player less every game.

3) Drop Big Rom, and instead play a false 9 or a target man that can play others in. We currently only have 1 that fits the bill in my opinion, and that's Kai.

Our system, in this league,always provides the perfect storm to break strikers.

I'm confused a bit by this thread, weren't we top of the league when he got injured? Then he got COVID and has barely played since October. 

When did people decide he was sh*t? 

36 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

I'm confused a bit by this thread, weren't we top of the league when he got injured? Then he got COVID and has barely played since October. 

When did people decide he was sh*t? 

Before he was signed

9 hours ago, Gol15 said:

The only fair thing is to wait till the end of the season before proclaiming that it's not working with Lukaku up top. Morata got a full season, it's only fair.

Does the same apply to Saul in the middle?

2 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

I'm confused a bit by this thread, weren't we top of the league when he got injured? Then he got COVID and has barely played since October. 

When did people decide he was sh*t? 

On the same basis we'd be on course for an invincible season based only on the same Saul has played.

Why isn't he getting this same level of defense?

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Does the same apply to Saul in the middle?

One is the 100m signing expected to be the first option, the other came to be a backup in midfield.

22 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

One is the 100m signing expected to be the first option, the other came to be a backup in midfield.

Exactly, So he should be held to the higher standards.

It took one half of football for many (me included) to come to the conclusion Saul is out of his depth but Lukaku has to have a whole season before we can come to any conclusion?

It's like Torres vs Eto'o again, the freebee is the one who has to do the most to impress while the record signing has people falling over themselves when he does the bare basics.

4 minutes ago, Argo said:

Exactly, So he should be held to the higher standards.

It took one half of football for many (me included) to come to the conclusion Saul is out of his depth but Lukaku has to have a whole season before we can come to any conclusion?

It's like Torres vs Eto'o again, the freebee is the one who has to do the most to impress while the record signing has people falling over themselves when he does the bare basics.

Well so far I watched him play and in the games he scored he was absolutely clinical at the start of the season, so far he had 6 shots on target and has 3 goals which is a great conversion rate, against Liverpool with a player less he ended up making problems for Van Dijk but he had 2 shots blocked. I do hold him to a high standard, that's why I have high hopes.

I've seen enough from Lukaku to know that if the team play to his strengths like in the first few games of the season he will win us matches plain and simple. The Timo and Rom combination looks good but I think Timo has to play as one of the inside fwds alongside any of our other fwds to ensure we keep the 3421 shape rather than play 352 perhaps 3412 could work but the number 10 has to be very creative. Atm we don't have that creative player for the team and it really shows we lack imagination in the final third and the forwards numbers suffer. Yes they haven't been the most clinical but this squad is really lacking that player who can unlock the door.

From CM I believe Kova can supply these types of passes but he needs to do it more consistently. Jorginho and Kante have both shown the ability to make creative passes also. But we need less balls to feet and more running in behind with accurate passes.

On 21/12/2021 at 11:47, jack_super_class said:

Remember when people thought we were a better team without him in the team.

Remember when people thought we were a better team without him 😂

Lukaku did great in the second half, there is hope that it all works out. This is how he used to bully everyone in Serie A.

I also think Mount on the left works better for us when we press regardless of other players, before we scored the second goal we were pressing really well.