25 minutes ago, evissy said:

never with same players apart from Kepa and Silva. Those two have performed well. 

Except Mount, Gallagher, Havertz, Koulibaly, Cucu etc and all the others who's also been available the whole time?

18 minutes ago, evissy said:

Potter's history as a manager to this day has been pretty spotless. He's been on a steep upward trajectory since he started in Sweden. 

Interesting take ... 

I just don't see it myself. Certainly in terms of winning football matches, it's a downward trend.

 

His win rate at Chelsea, while a small improvement on what he achieved at Brighton, is currently worse than what he was doing at flipping Swansea LOL.  If you take the PL on it's own, then he's bumping along at 33% (played 15 won 5 drawn 5 lost 5), comfortably below his career average, and a country mile below what we have become used to at Chelsea.

Given the infinitely better resources at Chelsea it's not impressive so far at all, and I can't say I blame posters for calling out their concerns. 

 

 

27 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Interesting take ... 

I just don't see it myself. Certainly in terms of winning football matches, it's a downward trend.

 

His win rate at Chelsea, while a small improvement on what he achieved at Brighton, is currently worse than what he was doing at flipping Swansea LOL.  If you take the PL on it's own, then he's bumping along at 33% (played 15 won 5 drawn 5 lost 5), comfortably below his career average, and a country mile below what we have become used to at Chelsea.

Given the infinitely better resources at Chelsea it's not impressive so far at all, and I can't say I blame posters for calling out their concerns. 

 

 

The upwards trajectory is not his win rate but his money earned!

Boehly and Co gave the keys to the castle to a coach with a 43.5 win percentage 

It's hard to make the case that Potter is doing a good job, or has done a good job, so far. 

But anyone who uses a win percentage to argue this provides conclusive evidence that a manager is:

A) doing a better or worse job than they were at another time or club

Or

B) someone else is a better manager

Is embarrassing themselves. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, OriginalS said:

Except Mount, Gallagher, Havertz, Koulibaly, Cucu etc and all the others who's also been available the whole time?

Switched formations, player positions and so on. It isn't also as simple as you make it out to be with your "witty remark" style. 

Our defense has been pretty solid. We just don't have enough miles nor have we found a midfield combo that works. Midfield itself is much more complex than rightback or leftback..

Doesn't help the 4 CMs we have in Kante, Kovacic, Zakaria, and RLC are all injury prone, and are all conveniently injured at the same time. 

I'd honestly only keep 1 of them moving forward. Far, far too unreliable. 

 

2 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Interesting take ... 

I just don't see it myself. Certainly in terms of winning football matches, it's a downward trend.

 

His win rate at Chelsea, while a small improvement on what he achieved at Brighton, is currently worse than what he was doing at flipping Swansea LOL.  If you take the PL on it's own, then he's bumping along at 33% (played 15 won 5 drawn 5 lost 5), comfortably below his career average, and a country mile below what we have become used to at Chelsea.

Given the infinitely better resources at Chelsea it's not impressive so far at all, and I can't say I blame posters for calling out their concerns. 

 

 

I understand all those stats. Have you seen Arteta's stats prior to this season? Have you seen Tuchel anywhere around Cobham who is considered a super-talented project type coach? Where is he? 

In long term Potter's history is solid. From sh*te league to Chelsea in a matter or years. There is something there.

If you can't see it after 5 months you should give at least 5 more months IF you are serious about long term. If you are not I understand that too...

7 minutes ago, evissy said:

Switched formations, player positions and so on. It isn't also as simple as you make it out to be with your "witty remark" style. 

Our defense has been pretty solid. We just don't have enough miles nor have we found a midfield combo that works. Midfield itself is much more complex than rightback or leftback..

Who's switched the formations and players positions? Even now with everyone back the manager does that so it's clearly down to him.
I'm not trying to be witty, I just need to call it out when you give him any excuse under the sun. He's had a whole lot of quality players available too him this whole time.

16 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Doesn't help the 4 CMs we have in Kante, Kovacic, Zakaria, and RLC are all injury prone, and are all conveniently injured at the same time. 

I'd honestly only keep 1 of them moving forward. Far, far too unreliable. 

 

Zakaria ? 🙂 

24 minutes ago, evissy said:

I understand all those stats. Have you seen Arteta's stats prior to this season? Have you seen Tuchel anywhere around Cobham who is considered a super-talented project type coach? Where is he? 

In long term Potter's history is solid. From sh*te league to Chelsea in a matter or years. There is something there.

If you can't see it after 5 months you should give at least 5 more months IF you are serious about long term. If you are not I understand that too...

Prior to this season, Arteta was played 131, won 71, drawn 22, lost 38. Win% of 54%.

I can't really see enough in Potter's 12 years of management that led to Boehly offering him the job, but he is here now, and I hope he does well.

It is however quite disappointing that we haven't really seen any progress in the first 5 months in all the things that you said you wanted to see ... patterns of play, fixed roles for players, core of players, shots on goal, scoring patterns, midfield fluidity. Personally I was expecting to see something, regardless of all the excuses that are routinely trotted out for Potter. Dyche managed to show some of that after 5 days in his job, so I'm not sure what is up with Potter, who is apparently a much better manager 🙂

We have seen many comments along the lines of "I have no idea what Potter's style is" ... but if Boehly, Eghbali et al are happy with what they are seeing then what we all think is irrelevant anyway 🙂.

I think Potter will see out his full contract but I am not expecting us to win much, if anything, of note.

I do however expect someone will be along soon to tell me I am embarrassing myself again with this post LOL.

Edited February 9, 20233 yr by Sexyfootball

10 minutes ago, guddy69 said:

Zakaria ? 🙂 

Rather Kante, should he accept lower terms. 

Bring in Lavia and Kone. 

 

Enzo, Lavia, Kone, Santos, Kante..........................................RLC

Edited February 9, 20233 yr by Sconnie Blue

10 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Dyche managed to show some of that after 5 days in his job, so I'm not sure what is up with Potter, who is apparently a much better manager 

🙂

 

A lot of what you are saying is fair but that is a bit of a harsh comparison.

In Potter's early games we battered the Serie A Champions twice.

Just now, Argo said:

A lot of what you are saying is fair but that is a bit of a harsh comparison.

In Potter's early games we battered the Serie A Champions twice.

Yes that's a fair point, but you know what I am getting at.

Ironic that the guy that scored 3 goals in 4 games in that little run is now being bundled off to the USA on loan !

 

42 minutes ago, evissy said:

I understand all those stats. Have you seen Arteta's stats prior to this season? Have you seen Tuchel anywhere around Cobham who is considered a super-talented project type coach? Where is he? 

In long term Potter's history is solid. From sh*te league to Chelsea in a matter or years. There is something there.

If you can't see it after 5 months you should give at least 5 more months IF you are serious about long term. If you are not I understand that too...

I disagree with every word of this, I think a lot of Chelsea supporters want a long term manager and are happy to see a long term project.

We just disagree said project should be overseen by a manager who in his previous job spent more than double what Pulis did at Stoke and what Dyche did at Burnley while achieving worse results, having a lower win percentage, less goals per game, more goals conceded per game and really not doing a particularly good job by any measure other than being praising for his style of play which for some reason didn't result in many goals or wins.

Potter going from the were he was to managing us is remarkable but it isn't a remarkable story of achievement, It's remarkable because there's no reason we or any top club should have even considered him after how average he was at Brighton, not bad but he certainly didn't do such a good job there you'd expect him to have been linked with a top club or get a 5 year 60m contract anywhere.

25 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Prior to this season, Arteta was played 131, won 71, drawn 22, lost 38. Win% of 54%.

I can't really see enough in Potter's 12 years of management that led to Boehly offering him the job, but he is here now, and I hope he does well.

It is however quite disappointing that we haven't really seen any progress in the first 5 months in all the things that you said you wanted to see ... patterns of play, fixed roles for players, core of players, shots on goal, scoring patterns, midfield fluidity. Personally I was expecting to see something, regardless of all the excuses that are routinely trotted out for Potter. Dyche managed to show some of that after 5 days in his job, so I'm not sure what is up with Potter, who is apparently a much better manager 🙂

We have seen many comments along the lines of "I have no idea what Potter's style is" ... but if Boehly, Eghbali et al are happy with what they are seeing then what we all think is irrelevant anyway 🙂.

I think Potter will see out his full contract but I am not expecting us to win much, if anything, of note.

I do however expect someone will be along soon to tell me I am embarrassing myself again with this post LOL.

You don't seem to understand how to apply statistics, or at least how to place them into anything more than the most basic of contexts.

That is what is embarrassing. That we're playing poor football and getting poor results is a view shared by many, but you'd do better if you understood that a win percentage doesn't necessarily indicate the comparative quality of coach or manager. 

2 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

You don't seem to understand how to apply statistics, or at least how to place them into anything more than the most basic of contexts.

That is what is embarrassing. That we're playing poor football and getting poor results is a view shared by many, but you'd do better if you understood that a win percentage doesn't necessarily indicate the comparative quality of coach or manager. 

Oh dear ... at what point in my original post did I compare Potter to any other coach or manager ? 

I'll stick you on the ignore list anyway, as you don't appear to have anything useful or interesting to add to the discussion, and quite why you feel the need to chuck personal insults around I have no idea. Says a lot more about you than me I guess ...  the self-styled "deluded elitist"... 

2 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

You don't seem to understand how to apply statistics, or at least how to place them into anything more than the most basic of contexts.

That is what is embarrassing. That we're playing poor football and getting poor results is a view shared by many, but you'd do better if you understood that a win percentage doesn't necessarily indicate the comparative quality of coach or manager. 

Ultimately if we look at our own context, if the win rate is low you get sacked as the manager. We're not talking about a capable manager that can develop players and sell them for a lot of money, for us someone simply isn't a good manager if he doesn't have the ability to win enough matches, that's the bottom line.

Conte while being our manager had a win percentage of 65%, he's clearly a quality manager despite having a whole bunch of flaws and while being a very hard character to deal with. On the other hand, someone like Pep may demand a lot of activity and a lot of money spending but at the same time he's also a good manager since once you meet his requirements he'll make it all work at the highest possible level.

So despite the vast differences in people's characters, you won't find a top quality manager that has a low win rate, if you do know how to do your job as the manager it will be somewhat reflected on the overall performance of the squad, and our current squad has been a top 4 squad for years now, even Lampard finished top 4 with this squad and after him Tuchel took it to the top of Europe and the world as well.

With a squad like this, that most teams dream of having, it should be an easier job to boost your win rate as the manager, it should be easier for a manager to show his quality if he's the right person for such a gig that is.

4 hours ago, Argo said:

Sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison.

We dominated every single tie in the 2021 win and if anything were unlucky not to win by more, not lucky we won.

Absolutely mental.

To this day I still don't know how we managed to win that Barca tie, comeback against Napoli, and beat that Bayern team. It was like it was fate, destined to happen. Under Tuchel we were by far the best team in it, dominated every team we played against, City had more possession sure, but we were still the better team, had the best chances, and cut them open. Should've won that 2-0 if Pulisic didn't miss a sitter.  

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Rather Kante, should he accept lower terms. 

Bring in Lavia and Kone. 

 

Enzo, Lavia, Kone, Santos, Kante..........................................RLC

Wouldn’t keep him. Presently he has rejected a 2yr contract with an extra year option on his present £250k/w which is way too generous IMO.

Those wages are what you pay a key player, and I don’t think playing him and Enzo together will ever work. He isn’t a DM which is what we need to pair with Enzo who I assume will start 80% of games when he is fit. Assuming we are playing a 4-2–3-1 going forward, where does that leave him? Assuming we buy a DM, we then have Enzo, Chukwuemeka, Conor is getting a new contract & home grown, so that leaves 2 more players to make 6 players for the 2 in front of the defence. Assuming Santos gets his work permit, you are left with one spot remaining. Kovacic though injury prone to a lesser extent then Kante makes more sense since he is on his final year, and lower wages.

Hope we don’t fall into the trap of renewing Kante’s contract because he puts in world class performances once in a while, it’s almost a given at 32 he won’t stay fit. Just have a look at Pogba who couldn’t stay fit at Utd, signed on a free for Juve & has been injured ever since. Worth noting no club has approached Kante to offer him a contract, his injury record is as scary as it gets. 

 

1 hour ago, Victor90 said:

Absolutely mental.

To this day I still don't know how we managed to win that Barca tie, comeback against Napoli, and beat that Bayern team. It was like it was fate, destined to happen. Under Tuchel we were by far the best team in it, dominated every team we played against, City had more possession sure, but we were still the better team, had the best chances, and cut them open. Should've won that 2-0 if Pulisic didn't miss a sitter.  

Those games were extraordinary, pure willpower and determination was a huge part of it, we don't have that sort of mentality anymore it seems, and of course it wasn't exactly a blueprint of how to play a league season. Our nerves would have been shot to pieces 😁😁😁

My local south coast newspaper had an piece on Potter leaving Brighton and Dezerbi replacing him.

"It's like your girlfriend dumping you only to find that Beyonce fancies you !"

Bit more in the article, but I can't seem to share it.  Let's just say the writer is not unhappy.

We have no idea whether Potter works for us. We don't. What we have is Todd and co who have seen something in him to give him his massive deal. They are investors who try to make something of little less of something. 

Conte or Tuchel are coaches who's track records in terms of winning are massive. What is also very apparent is they are coaches whose ground is burning after one season in charge and they are very hard to handle. Players can burn out under their super-demanding style. Perfect Roman era coaches.

Potter has never had any pressure to leave from his previous jobs. Never. He's always been poached from the jobs he's been at. That tells you something. At best his football's been outstanding. He's won where he shouldn't have. He's touted of being great creating trusting environment and getting the best out of his players.

What he has done well so far is to trust players and apart from Sterling wingback cameo he's played players in positions they want to play in. It is clear he listens to players instead of playing them to win here and now. 

I agree there have not been clear signs of footballing style so far...maybe 4 at back...maybe we are still looking at players and their strenghts. We have also had so many injuries...

 

 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Ultimately if we look at our own context, if the win rate is low you get sacked as the manager. We're not talking about a capable manager that can develop players and sell them for a lot of money, for us someone simply isn't a good manager if he doesn't have the ability to win enough matches, that's the bottom line.

Agreed. 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Conte while being our manager had a win percentage of 65%, he's clearly a quality manager despite having a whole bunch of flaws and while being a very hard character to deal with. On the other hand, someone like Pep may demand a lot of activity and a lot of money spending but at the same time he's also a good manager since once you meet his requirements he'll make it all work at the highest possible level.

Agreed. 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

With a squad like this, that most teams dream of having, it should be an easier job to boost your win rate as the manager, it should be easier for a manager to show his quality if he's the right person for such a gig that is.

Agreed. 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

So despite the vast differences in people's characters, you won't find a top quality manager that has a low win rate, if you do know how to do your job as the manager it will be somewhat reflected on the overall performance of the squad, and our current squad has been a top 4 squad for years now, even Lampard finished top 4 with this squad and after him Tuchel took it to the top of Europe and the world as well.

Agreed. 

My point isn't that you can't conclude Potter has done badly so far by looking at his win percentage. You can, and I do. You can also look at a lot of intangible things and draw the same conclusion - and I am doing that too. 

What you can't do is, for example, point to his win percentage at Brighton and present that as conclusive evidence that he's didn't deserve to be offered a job such as this one.

It doesn't take into account the huge wealth inequality in the Premier league; the fact Brighton have sold their best players every season; that they consistently improved as a team and as individuals etc etc. It's a totally reductive approach to take. 

I've seen people on here say that de zerbi's stats at Brighton prove he's better than Potter. He could be, but they don't prove it at all. Firstly, the sample size is too small, and secondly he's obviously benefitting from the work that Potter and others at Brighton did before he arrived.  

I don't think Potter is doing a good job and my hopes that he could turn it around continue to recede, but I don't think I can respect a logic that has Sam Allardyce as England's best ever manager. 

Edited February 9, 20233 yr by g3.7

While I am a rather ardent USA football fan and have great knowledge of that sport. I have come to enjoy the EPL quite a bit and Chelsea was my choise mainly for Pulisic but honestly I am not a huge fan of his after watching him for the past few years.

 

Some items I think many seem to like to overlook but has been mentioned above. 

1- being available to play or not play due to health is a skill just like scoring goals. 

2- Chelsea has way too many players that lack the stay healthy skill.

 

Based on the above 2 points this is what I am seeing. Players are the tier 1 players for a reason. When you have to play the backups in place of the starters you can not expect the tier 1 level production. I realize many are saying no sh*te. But where I think this is really hurting Potter is that it is hard to effect the play on the pitch if you are spending all your time making sure you have 11 to play. How can you really work on strategy when you have a revolving door at the doctors office. And not to mention a patchwork team of skills. This team seems to lack the proper mix of players skills and positions needed. It would be one thing to have 6 elite goal scores because you can make that work. Chelsea has ZERO elite goal scores and a bunch of really nice wings and "scoring" forwards. But who on this team would you call a goal scorer? Like a pure offensive player/machine. Who are they building around? I watched Wrexham the other day I chuckled because they have a better plan and mix of players than Chelsea right now. Not saying the skill levels are on the same plane but the mix of players is much more aligned to the skills needed on the pitch in each position.

 

This has been bothering me for some time. The best teams know who is going to score goals. They know who is their best defensive forward. They know these things and they game plan around how to best utilize those players to create success on the pitch. Last season Chelsea got by because of overall team spirit that overcame the lack of proper player mix. That can only last so long. Eventually the mix players will find their level. And until you can name who the goal scorer is on this squad you will be fighting to get into the top 4 of the table.