3 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I am pretty much willing to go out on a limb and say Pochettino is the best possible managerial fit for this "project" (I'm sure we've all grown to hate this word because of Todd et al). 

It's clear he's a good coach, but he needs to build his team. The truth is Liverpool and City have been successful and to a lesser extent Arsenal now over the last 12 months because the owners believe in their appointed coaches and let them build their team.

It's been made clear that pretty much none of the summer signings were Pochettino's. He was crying out for experience and we didn't give it to him. It's come out now that he will have the final say moving forward which is positive so he will get to choose players and identify profiles that suit his style.

Hopefully this is the way forward because the past 3 windows have been so scatter gun. From two extremes they started off getting only proven players like Sterling, KK, PEA and then switched to under 23s only. 

The new strategy should be elite or top proven talent that we don't overpay. Toni and another top goalscorer who can play multiple positions across the front line.

In the meantime despite all the pressure put on Nkunku's shoulders we need to hope he can handle it.

This is fine providing we all agree with his ideas and the players he wants. 

Watch the howls of derision if the club cash in on Maatsen and Poch steams in and gets Dele Alli.  

3 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I am pretty much willing to go out on a limb and say Pochettino is the best possible managerial fit for this "project" (I'm sure we've all grown to hate this word because of Todd et al). 

It's clear he's a good coach, "

I don't see what's so clear about that. I think a number of decisions and his general approach aren't really all that flash. His results at other clubs don't really stamp as a good coach, but neither is he terrible.

This is a big job for him. He's done Southhampton, Spuds, PSG long break and now Chelsea. If Chelsea don't succeed it's gunna be hard for him to get a top club. So he is under as much pressure or more than the players.

He also runs it as a family business bringing the son along and actually I do question that. Maybe the son is talented.

According to Alex Ferguson a good coach has 1. Perseverance (sub text how determined the coach is), 2. Communication (talk less not more), 3. Imagination (do you see much of that in Poch?) 4. Observation (pay attention to the big picture, Fergie let others run the training sessions for hours at a time apparently).

Another view which I think expresses the idea without providing the recipe:

"What makes for a great coach? It’s the ability to lead — to make things happen, maximize resources and inspire. It’s the extraordinary quality that solves problems and helps the individual come to a new level understanding of what is possible. And it’s the skill and talent to influence and guide others to make real breakthroughs and create lasting change.

Great coaches see things as they are, not worse than they are. They have a firm grasp on reality, and are honest with themselves about where they stand. Unlike most people, however, they do not dwell on problems; they tackle them head on. They have the proper skills and knowledge to assess the situation and find the best path to move forward. Fear and doubt do not play a role in their mission, even though they must take necessary risks to help others break through to the next level.

Great coaches also have vision. They can see things better than they are and help others to share in that idea. They can create movement that inspires others, so that they roll up their sleeves and do what it takes to get the job done. It goes well beyond directing activity, as a great coach will define the future and make it real and attainable for others.

Great coaches also understand strategy. They realize that transforming a vision into reality requires incremental changes that amount to radical results. It’s not always about the resources available, it’s knowing how to maximize resources — someone’s will, energy, creativity, courage, faith and determination — to achieve goals."

Coaches don't work miracles, but they do make a difference. It's not clear to me where Poch sits on the scale and clearly he deserves and will get more time,  but in my opinion his performance to date hasn't been inspiring.  Whatever the answer is, if there is one, he hasn't found it so far.

11 minutes ago, ozboy said:

Coaches don't work miracles, but they do make a difference. It's not clear to me where Poch sits on the scale and clearly he deserves and will get more time,  but in my opinion his performance to date hasn't been inspiring.  Whatever the answer is, if there is one, he hasn't found it so far.

Great post, thanks for sharing. Pretty much sums up how I feel about the situation, and to be honest, how I felt about him before he signed.  

Good coaches talk tactics but great coaches inspire, and they actually win things. I'd take a coach who wins things over the fanciest tactical genius any day of the week. 

3 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Great post, thanks for sharing. Pretty much sums up how I feel about the situation, and to be honest, how I felt about him before he signed.  

Good coaches talk tactics but great coaches inspire, and they actually win things. I'd take a coach who wins things over the fanciest tactical genius any day of the week. 

I don't think winning is really our no 1 priority. You don't carry this many raw player if you are serious. 

 

I think he needs a window or 2 with his own signings until we could pass judgment on him. Of course, it's likely he will not get that luxury since Boehly has spent so much already. Long term vision or project, the current recruitment for the future and profit doesn't do the manager any good when comes to fight our way up to the table.

So how do we fix our deep block problem? 

It is very simple, we had the same problem under mou 2.0 and we fixed it by bringing Costa and fabregas

Costa

Hazard - Oscar - Willian/Schurlle 

Fabregas 

So you need  goalgetter 

Player who can feed player in the box (fab and hazard) 

Player who can make off the ball run (Oscar, Schurlle, Costa) 

Player who can dribble (wilian, Hazard) 

Done.

You can use this template for every single team.

 

 

Edited October 31, 20232 yr by Bob stark

15 hours ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

Not sure I agree? If it was the opposite and we splashed the cash on a striker vs a midfielder and we were still having issues people would be bringing up the same point but contrary to what you said. Point being, people are always going say decision X, Y or Z was wrong and A, B, C would have been better with hindsight. There's also the issue of us wasting hundreds of millions of pounds on strikers over the last half decade (more than any position) and none of them have worked. I could see why the board were more conservative in spending that kind of money on a striker again.

That's a totally fair point.

I was maybe being a bit reductive, and as I said, I like Jackson as well as Caicedo.

I do maintain though that if we want to "win now" as Poch keeps claiming, allocating resources towards goal-scoring positions would've been wiser.

But as others have mentioned, the market for strikers was/is thin at best, so maybe this is all pie in the sky thinking. Regardless, I think we are moving in the right direction under Poch, just maybe not quite at the rate of knots some desire.

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

So how do we fix our deep block problem? 

It is very simple, we had the same problem under mou 2.0 and we fixed it by bringing Costa and fabregas

Costa

Hazard - Oscar - Willian/Schurlle 

Fabregas 

So you need  goalgetter 

Player who can feed player in the box (fab and hazard) 

Player who can make off the ball run (Oscar, Schurlle, Costa) 

Player who can dribble (wilian, Hazard) 

Done.

You can use this template for every single team.

 

 

Luke Rushbrook mentioned that we had the 6th smallest pitch in the league, something I didn't know but clearly smaller pitches make low blocks easier.  Mind you it's only 2-3% smaller than some. And unsurprisingly the best way to manage a low block is to score first. Liverpool's ground is also small and that doesn't stop them.

One of things I think Poch is dumb about, or at least not crafty enough, is to have the team start ultra motivated, so we go all gung ho with lots of possession and effort. If we score well and good but we mostly don't. So then we lose confidence and they gradually get control. It's such a naive approach particularly ill suited to the young guys. The young guys want to attack, which is good, and you pick a team to do that, but you don't fire your guns too early.

A craftier manager might try and lure the opposition into attacking more early on, and save the effort for later in the game. I'm not sure that will work but clearly what we are doing now isn't working. Instead of trying to wind the game in the first ten minutes, work our way into it gradually. How does that square with scoring the first goal? Because by bringing them on to us we create a bit more space. 

Edited October 31, 20232 yr by ozboy

24 minutes ago, ozboy said:

Luke Rushbrook mentioned that we had the 6th smallest pitch in the league, something I didn't know but clearly smaller pitches make low blocks easier.  Mind you it's only 2-3% smaller than some. And unsurprisingly the best way to manage a low block is to score first. Liverpool's ground is also small and that doesn't stop them.

One of things I think Poch is dumb about, or at least not crafty enough, is to have the team start ultra motivated, so we go all gung ho with lots of possession and effort. If we score well and good but we mostly don't. So then we lose confidence and they gradually get control. It's such a naive approach particularly ill suited to the young guys. The young guys want to attack, which is good, and you pick a team to do that, but you don't fire your guns too early.

A craftier manager might try and lure the opposition into attacking more early on, and save the effort for later in the game. I'm not sure that will work but clearly what we are doing now isn't working. Instead of trying to wind the game in the first ten minutes, work our way into it gradually. How does that square with scoring the first goal? Because by bringing them on to us we create a bit more space. 

Provoking space or letting the opp have the ball, only work if you play against opp who want to play. 

 

7 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Provoking space or letting the opp have the ball, only work if you play against opp who want to play. 

 

It's a game Bob, the idea is to make the other side do what you want them to do. I dunno if you've played games before but there are these things like tactics, and strategy and traps, dummys, gambits and so on. If you have made your mind up that we are going to lose alll the time because the team isn't good enough that's fine. Personally I am interested in turning our bunch of chumps into champs and thinking about how to do it. 

15 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I am pretty much willing to go out on a limb and say Pochettino is the best possible managerial fit for this "project" (I'm sure we've all grown to hate this word because of Todd et al). 

It's clear he's a good coach, but he needs to build his team. The truth is Liverpool and City have been successful and to a lesser extent Arsenal now over the last 12 months because the owners believe in their appointed coaches and let them build their team.

It's been made clear that pretty much none of the summer signings were Pochettino's. He was crying out for experience and we didn't give it to him. It's come out now that he will have the final say moving forward which is positive so he will get to choose players and identify profiles that suit his style.

Hopefully this is the way forward because the past 3 windows have been so scatter gun. From two extremes they started off getting only proven players like Sterling, KK, PEA and then switched to under 23s only. 

The new strategy should be elite or top proven talent that we don't overpay. Toni and another top goalscorer who can play multiple positions across the front line.

In the meantime despite all the pressure put on Nkunku's shoulders we need to hope he can handle it.

I agree he's perfect for this stage due to his reputation for helping developing raw players (which despite results we're already starting to see with Mudryk especially).

But I'm even more convinced he's not the man when we have to start challenging again, his game management and ability to change a game hasn't improved one jot to when he was at Spurs and his comments about how he was effectively peer pressured to play Enzo and Caicedo against Arsenal is very worrying (similar to how he "had" to pick an unfit Kane in a UCL final over the reason they made it in the first place). I thought the Liverpool game was a sign he had evolved on the former score but it was a clear outlier.

Only worry is will Clearlake bite the bullet if/when Poch gets to the Ranieri stage of done well but clearly not the man for the "next stage"? The way they clung onto to Roberts with the Dodgers leaves me very nervous.

2 hours ago, ozboy said:

It's a game Bob, the idea is to make the other side do what you want them to do. I dunno if you've played games before but there are these things like tactics, and strategy and traps, dummys, gambits and so on. If you have made your mind up that we are going to lose alll the time because the team isn't good enough that's fine. Personally I am interested in turning our bunch of chumps into champs and thinking about how to do it. 

Ok. I am officially baffled. 

How do you plan to give up the ball to Brentford? 

1 hour ago, Argo said:

I agree he's perfect for this stage due to his reputation for helping developing raw players (which despite results we're already starting to see with Mudryk especially).

But I'm even more convinced he's not the man when we have to start challenging again, his game management and ability to change a game hasn't improved one jot to when he was at Spurs and his comments about how he was effectively peer pressured to play Enzo and Caicedo against Arsenal is very worrying (similar to how he "had" to pick an unfit Kane in a UCL final over the reason they made it in the first place). I thought the Liverpool game was a sign he had evolved on the former score but it was a clear outlier.

Only worry is will Clearlake bite the bullet if/when Poch gets to the Ranieri stage of done well but clearly not the man for the "next stage"? The way they clung onto to Roberts with the Dodgers leaves me very nervous.

I'd still like to believe injuries and still not knowing his squad is leaving him to 'throw the kitchen sink' in certain situations. Doubt he's ever heard of Washington until a month ago. 

Hopefully he can build and develop a good squad for us that just needs a little fine tuning from now on (the right forward player, right keeper etc)

But in terms of us challenging for the title, winning trophies or even getting top 4, I don't think he will pull it off.

Edited October 31, 20232 yr by axman2526

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I'd still like to believe injuries and still not knowing his squad is leaving him to 'throw the kitchen sink' in certain situations. Doubt he's ever heard of Washington until a month ago. 

That annoys me a bit too tbh. Genuinely believe we win that Brentford match even from behind if we stuck to the game plan at 0-0 but as soon as they scored we panicked and overcomplicated everything. Doesn't seem to be too bad if we go behind early (Liverpool, 1st WHU goal, Burnley) but if we do with less than half the game still to go we totally panic/fold (2nd WHU goal, Forest, Villa, Brentford).

At this point I'll give him the benefit of the doubt it's more the players fault than his but it's also his job to work on the players to stop them totally losing the plot when we go behind.

I think performances are still good, it's weird because I don't think we've actually played badly at all to be in the position that we are in. There really aren't many games this season where I thought we were 2nd best, even against Arsenal and Liverpool we were the better side and deserved the 3 points that we didn't get. If I had to think I would say Brighton were the better team in the Cup game and should've won. Which at the very least is different from last season where I felt we were the 2nd best team in most of the games. 

But as many have said, we are a team that needs to score first, if we don't score first we don't win. 

About 95% of us on here knew that as soon as Brentford scored that goal we were losing the game. Too many games now we've had a great start, create many chances, don't score, then it's always an individual error, a lapse in concentration, and the other team scores. They typically take their chances against us while we need about 30. 

I say as of now, we just have to push through it and take each game as it comes. I think we will get better, we're not playing terribly by any means, I see improvement from many players. I like the Caicedo-Enzo pivot, I feel that it's been coming along well, I love watching Cole Palmer every game, Mudryk also looked like he was improving. Cucu looks much better but still has glaring weaknesses, Gusto is coming along well. Sterling has been one of our best attackers and as frustrating as he can be he's still offering a lot on the pitch. Jacksons form has dipped, it would be nice to mix it up with Broja in the side but he appears to have injury problems. 

I think if there's one thing I would like to see differently from Poch right now, it's to stop going for the defensive option. Thankfully we are out of the 3 at the back stage, but we went with Disasi at RB, we still showed a lot of respect for Brentford. And what did that do? It still backfired, Disasi f**ked up still. So at this rate, what's the point? At least if we had played Gusto we would've had a far better offensive threat. I say shove this cautious approach and just f**king go for it. 

8 hours ago, Bob stark said:

So how do we fix our deep block problem? 

It is very simple, we had the same problem under mou 2.0 and we fixed it by bringing Costa and fabregas

Costa

Hazard - Oscar - Willian/Schurlle 

Fabregas 

So you need  goalgetter 

Player who can feed player in the box (fab and hazard) 

Player who can make off the ball run (Oscar, Schurlle, Costa) 

Player who can dribble (wilian, Hazard) 

Done.

You can use this template for every single team.

 

 

Just watch how Spurs play. Fast passing and player movement. You're never going to beat a low block with 1 twos in the middle of the park and backline. We are way too pedestrian that even watching on TV you can't see how we are going to break a team down with such poor tempo.

19 hours ago, ozboy said:

I don't see what's so clear about that. I think a number of decisions and his general approach aren't really all that flash. His results at other clubs don't really stamp as a good coach, but neither is he terrible.

This is a big job for him. He's done Southhampton, Spuds, PSG long break and now Chelsea. If Chelsea don't succeed it's gunna be hard for him to get a top club. So he is under as much pressure or more than the players.

He also runs it as a family business bringing the son along and actually I do question that. Maybe the son is talented.

According to Alex Ferguson a good coach has 1. Perseverance (sub text how determined the coach is), 2. Communication (talk less not more), 3. Imagination (do you see much of that in Poch?) 4. Observation (pay attention to the big picture, Fergie let others run the training sessions for hours at a time apparently).

Another view which I think expresses the idea without providing the recipe:

"What makes for a great coach? It’s the ability to lead — to make things happen, maximize resources and inspire. It’s the extraordinary quality that solves problems and helps the individual come to a new level understanding of what is possible. And it’s the skill and talent to influence and guide others to make real breakthroughs and create lasting change.

Great coaches see things as they are, not worse than they are. They have a firm grasp on reality, and are honest with themselves about where they stand. Unlike most people, however, they do not dwell on problems; they tackle them head on. They have the proper skills and knowledge to assess the situation and find the best path to move forward. Fear and doubt do not play a role in their mission, even though they must take necessary risks to help others break through to the next level.

Great coaches also have vision. They can see things better than they are and help others to share in that idea. They can create movement that inspires others, so that they roll up their sleeves and do what it takes to get the job done. It goes well beyond directing activity, as a great coach will define the future and make it real and attainable for others.

Great coaches also understand strategy. They realize that transforming a vision into reality requires incremental changes that amount to radical results. It’s not always about the resources available, it’s knowing how to maximize resources — someone’s will, energy, creativity, courage, faith and determination — to achieve goals."

Coaches don't work miracles, but they do make a difference. It's not clear to me where Poch sits on the scale and clearly he deserves and will get more time,  but in my opinion his performance to date hasn't been inspiring.  Whatever the answer is, if there is one, he hasn't found it so far.

And yet it didn't start out as a roaring success. . They gave him time

I have a weird theory about this board, it was rumoured before and after sacking Potter we contacted José and enquired about his availability. It is also rumoured when José heard the new board were buying the club in the spring/summer of 2022. Through intermediaries he apparently let them know he would be interested in working with them.

Now whether there is any fire to accompany the smoke will remain to be seen. The current  situation at Roma as it stands, he is expected to leave at the end of the season. Now theoretically Pochettino signed only a two year contract and should see it out in my opinion.

Whether he gets an extension remains to be seen, but did they specifically choose 2 years because they believed someone else would be available in that time. Did they perhaps deem Poch as only a transitional coach to get the youngsters up to a standard good enough for a serial winner?

Again this is all conjecture and I'm not saying I would want him back or it would be the right move, but if he was to take a year sabbatical. Mourinho would be available theoretically once Pochettino's current contract runs out.

I know a lot of people believe he may be finished at the top end of football. I disagree, perhaps his tactics are outdated perhaps football has moved on.....but who better though to bring back the winning culture to this club than José Mourinho. Aside from the current recruitment policy of youngsters only, José despite working wonders at Porto and Inter on relatively small budgets has always preferred to be a bank role manager with a big budget to shape his squad.

If in 2 years time the player recruitment strategy changes and Pochettino has taken us as far as he can my question is, would we take José back to bring the winning culture back to the club?

Also for any wondering he is rumoured to want a return back to the Premier league, many believe Tammy will follow him back to the prem whatever that means. I don't see a club for him currently. The argument is once Klopp and Pep go which club and coach will dominate the league or will we have something similar to the past few Serie A seasons where different teams win each year?

24 minutes ago, The Rising Sun said:

And yet it didn't start out as a roaring success. . They gave him time

The Fergie argument works both ways though.

How did they get him in the first place? Due to sacking Ron Atkinson three months into the season.

5 minutes ago, Argo said:

The Fergie argument works both ways though.

How did they get him in the first place? Due to sacking Ron Atkinson three months into the season.

True... But regardless it still took him time that he wouldn't get today .

To me, pre season in America, and our " victories" over Liverpool in the transfer market are likely to be the most enjoyable moments of the season sad to say

@Moduekecould we please add a poll to this thread? Am curious as to what the Shed ends general opinion is on Poch now 10 games in?

Will he be success and rebuild us to a strong title challanger?

Will his rebuild lead us no higher than top 4?

He is really us just Potterttino?

40 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I have a weird theory about this board, it was rumoured before and after sacking Potter we contacted José and enquired about his availability. It is also rumoured when José heard the new board were buying the club in the spring/summer of 2022. Through intermediaries he apparently let them know he would be interested in working with them.

Now whether there is any fire to accompany the smoke will remain to be seen. The current  situation at Roma as it stands, he is expected to leave at the end of the season. Now theoretically Pochettino signed only a two year contract and should see it out in my opinion.

Whether he gets an extension remains to be seen, but did they specifically choose 2 years because they believed someone else would be available in that time. Did they perhaps deem Poch as only a transitional coach to get the youngsters up to a standard good enough for a serial winner?

Again this is all conjecture and I'm not saying I would want him back or it would be the right move, but if he was to take a year sabbatical. Mourinho would be available theoretically once Pochettino's current contract runs out.

I know a lot of people believe he may be finished at the top end of football. I disagree, perhaps his tactics are outdated perhaps football has moved on.....but who better though to bring back the winning culture to this club than José Mourinho. Aside from the current recruitment policy of youngsters only, José despite working wonders at Porto and Inter on relatively small budgets has always preferred to be a bank role manager with a big budget to shape his squad.

If in 2 years time the player recruitment strategy changes and Pochettino has taken us as far as he can my question is, would we take José back to bring the winning culture back to the club?

Also for any wondering he is rumoured to want a return back to the Premier league, many believe Tammy will follow him back to the prem whatever that means. I don't see a club for him currently. The argument is once Klopp and Pep go which club and coach will dominate the league or will we have something similar to the past few Serie A seasons where different teams win each year?

f**k no.

We are still paying the price for Jose's last stint where he offloaded KDB & Salah. Mourinho isn't coming back for a third time and that's a good thing.

 

11 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

@Moduekecould we please add a poll to this thread? Am curious as to what the Shed ends general opinion is on Poch now 10 games in?

106 pages deep so might be better to start a separate poll topic

It's been a while since a manager poll

30 minutes ago, Nibs said:

f**k no.

We are still paying the price for Jose's last stint where he offloaded KDB & Salah. Mourinho isn't coming back for a third time and that's a good thing.

 

Agreed, the Jose boat has sailed years ago, he's closing down on his amazing management career, not many big teams would want him now. Imagine Jose manage a team full of 20-23 year olds, he will probably cut 2/3 of them before the season starts. Despite the predictably slow start, given the mess we are in I still think we won't do any better than Poch as the manager. Boehly already got rid of one manager for not being a team player, the other one for incompetence ( after he hand picked Potter), a manager can't win with him and his buddies running the club.