On 04/11/2023 at 17:08, axman2526 said:

Shows how standards have changed. United are in crisis due to a poor start in the CL, out of the league cup but. are 6 points ahead of us who have no European football and are not in crisis?

 

Remember when Jose was sacked after a much better league start but because we Dre at home to Rosenberg?

We have a project. They have a yearly dumpster fire.

8 hours ago, Bob stark said:

There is no such thing as tanking though in pl.

There are similarities with baseball in the way Boehly and co are running things. In baseball when teams go into teardown mode they sell their established players and sign a bunch of prospects who then gain experience with affiliated teams and also in the big leagues with the first team. In the process they gain experience of playing at the top level at the expense of the present results and performances. They may or may not become top players. When a promising core of players start delivering the results then the team buys the remaining pieces to contend for the title. 

It seems that's what Boehly's trying to do here by signing these young inexperienced players. It's a massive gamble and the only difference is that we've paid hundreds of millions for these players that other clubs would normally spend on established stars.

12 minutes ago, Nick05 said:

There are similarities with baseball in the way Boehly and co are running things. In baseball when teams go into teardown mode they sell their established players and sign a bunch of prospects who then gain experience with affiliated teams and also in the big leagues with the first team. In the process they gain experience of playing at the top level at the expense of the present results and performances. They may or may not become top players. When a promising core of players start delivering the results then the team buys the remaining pieces to contend for the title. 

It seems that's what Boehly's trying to do here by signing these young inexperienced players. It's a massive gamble and the only difference is that we've paid hundreds of millions for these players that other clubs would normally spend on established stars.

That's the thing though. Had the been signing many players in the price range and ages of say Badiashile and Jackson, then fair enough.

But they haven't. At first they signed players like Sterling and Koulibaly, not players for the future players for an impact now.

Then they did a 180 and went for the long term prospects, and you look at players like Carney, Santos, Casadei and Paez to name a few and think "ok if these boys develop in to very good players great, if they become top players even better". Ideally you get Carney and Casadei a little cheaper but the prices are not awful.

 

But when you are paying the sort of money you pay for Mudryk, for example, this is crazy money for a youth prospect from a poor league, which is what he was.

Then you have the Enzo and Caicedo money. Team is nowhere near finished building when you spend that type of money.

 

If the team is made up of Badiashiles and Jackson's, along with our own players like James and Colwill, plus a Santos, Casadei and Carney instead of Enzo, Mudryk and Caicedo then fair enough, we made sure to not spend comparatively "big" amounts on star players while we are building a team. Then when the team is coming together and needs that star CF, top keeper, creative winger etc they go out and get the proven article to finish the job. 

That follows the baseball principle you mentioned. But they tried to do everything too fast as doing things completely differently in the first window and have made a right mess of it imo.

I also feel they have yet to appoint the right manager in 3 goes now, albeit one was a caretaker.

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

That's the thing though. Had the been signing many players in the price range and ages of say Badiashile and Jackson, then fair enough.

But they haven't. At first they signed players like Sterling and Koulibaly, not players for the future players for an impact now.

Then they did a 180 and went for the long term prospects, and you look at players like Carney, Santos, Casadei and Paez to name a few and think "ok if these boys develop in to very good players great, if they become top players even better". Ideally you get Carney and Casadei a little cheaper but the prices are not awful.

 

But when you are paying the sort of money you pay for Mudryk, for example, this is crazy money for a youth prospect from a poor league, which is what he was.

Then you have the Enzo and Caicedo money. Team is nowhere near finished building when you spend that type of money.

 

If the team is made up of Badiashiles and Jackson's, along with our own players like James and Colwill, plus a Santos, Casadei and Carney instead of Enzo, Mudryk and Caicedo then fair enough, we made sure to not spend comparatively "big" amounts on star players while we are building a team. Then when the team is coming together and needs that star CF, top keeper, creative winger etc they go out and get the proven article to finish the job. 

That follows the baseball principle you mentioned. But they tried to do everything too fast as doing things completely differently in the first window and have made a right mess of it imo.

I also feel they have yet to appoint the right manager in 3 goes now, albeit one was a caretaker.

I remember reading that the initial big spending was supposed to propel us into a top team, while at the same time we were buying and nurturing young players for the future . Dunno if the club have ever set out what their strategy actually is ?

Can anyone can direct me to their strategy statement , ?

2 hours ago, evissy said:

We have a project. They have a yearly dumpster fire.

Tbf this project is turning into a yearly dumpster fire. 

 

11 hours ago, Nick05 said:

I think that's because Utd finished 3rd last season, 14 pts behind City. Many were counting on them to challenge for the title this season. And then there's a section of their fanboys in the media and punditry who desperately want to see them do well. They are just frustrated to see them go nowhere this season and their desperation is hilarious to watch. 

In contrast we finished 12th last season, with less than half the points of City. We sacked a proven winner manager and signed a novice and a bunch of players who none of us heard about. We barely escaped getting pulled into a relegation battle! If it was Roman still in charge then surely there would be talk about crisis but with him gone I feel the identity and expectations around the club have changed for the worse. We've gone from a club who won't tolerate failure to a club who are fine with mediocrity in the present with faint hopes of doing well in the future. Just like American sports teams, we're tanking now in hopes of building a future winning team. But the uneasy thing is that tanking and mediocrity are acceptable at Chelsea now. 

Maybe for us this is a crisis but most people including pundits see this as a team who finished 12th last season, are currently 12th this season and a new manager with a bunch of inexperienced and unproven players. It's just about expected.

This is honestly my perspective now which is why I don't get as frustrated as other people here. I've lowered expectations and I am not expecting much for next two to three years. Quicker people accept that, the easier it will be. A lot of fans still have the expectations of the Roman era (and rightfully fair for them to have that) but unfortunately that's only going to lead to tears. And no I'm not lowering standards, I'm just being realistic. If the club is still in the same position we are at in about 3 years then I'll change my stance.

1 hour ago, Nick05 said:

There are similarities with baseball in the way Boehly and co are running things. In baseball when teams go into teardown mode they sell their established players and sign a bunch of prospects who then gain experience with affiliated teams and also in the big leagues with the first team. In the process they gain experience of playing at the top level at the expense of the present results and performances. They may or may not become top players. When a promising core of players start delivering the results then the team buys the remaining pieces to contend for the title. 

It seems that's what Boehly's trying to do here by signing these young inexperienced players. It's a massive gamble and the only difference is that we've paid hundreds of millions for these players that other clubs would normally spend on established stars.

We're supposed to have a world class academy. That's where we have been working with youth for years who are immersed in Chelsea.

Taking a gamble on youngsters from other club's youth systems with different cultures to ours while selling academy developed players to fund their purchase doesn't seem to make sense. 

It's a gamble, an unnecessary gamble I reckon.

2 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

 

This is honestly my perspective now which is why I don't get as frustrated as other people here. I've lowered expectations and I am not expecting much for next two to three years. Quicker people accept that, the easier it will be. A lot of fans still have the expectations of the Roman era (and rightfully fair for them to have that) but unfortunately that's only going to lead to tears. And no I'm not lowering standards, I'm just being realistic. If the club is still in the same position we are at in about 3 years then I'll change my stance.

My Expectation is mid-table, and my Hope is top 4.

Not one team has played us off the park this season to date. I think we are closer than many think to being very competitive. Defence, for all the brain farts, has been pretty sound. Midfield has been solid. We just need to be a bit more adventurous (tactically) in terms of trying to score goals. 

It will come ... 

7 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

 

This is honestly my perspective now which is why I don't get as frustrated as other people here. I've lowered expectations and I am not expecting much for next two to three years. Quicker people accept that, the easier it will be. A lot of fans still have the expectations of the Roman era (and rightfully fair for them to have that) but unfortunately that's only going to lead to tears. And no I'm not lowering standards, I'm just being realistic. If the club is still in the same position we are at in about 3 years then I'll change my stance.

I agree , but our club had nothing much wrong with it when Todd bought us.

Instead of a steady, calm approach, they tore apart the foundations that underpinned the club . 

Had they done nothing at all during the first season , we would be in a much better place

 

14 hours ago, ozboy said:

I think you could have included Sterling in that lot. Caicedo has played only 13 games less than Reece James, despite a much shorter time in the PL. Sanchez is about the same. Cucu has about 150 La Liga and PL combined experience. Disasi has 100 games of Ligue 1 experience in France. Gallagher has over 100 PL appearances. 

"Are you experienced"  Jimi famously asked  and went on in one of my favourite lines "move over rover, let jimi take over", (see "Smash Hits")  but I would argue there is a core of players with enough experience.
if you tell me they have don't have much experience together yet then fair enough. But regarding them all as youngsters and wet behind the ears, I can't agree with.

I'm talking about experience in this team.

When Potter was here he had a group of players that had already won a Champions League together and played together for years. Who's left from that CL winning team? The 3 players I just mentioned. Poch definitely has less pressure than Potter ever did, but Potter had most of Tuchels players, the same players Tuchel was winning trophies with and getting into every final. 

Pochettino told the journos after the TV portion of the Friday interviews, when asked what reception he expects on Monday.

That the fans should know it was not his, or his staffs, wishes to leave Spurs, they were sacked, and had they not been sacked then they probably would still be there.

His mum has also nicknamed him "the crier". And he told the journos he does not know if he will be able to keep his emotions in check on Monday....

 

Oh dear...

16 minutes ago, The Rising Sun said:

I agree , but our club had nothing much wrong with it when Todd bought us.

Instead of a steady, calm approach, they tore apart the foundations that underpinned the club . 

Had they done nothing at all during the first season , we would be in a much better place

 

No chance the fans would have been calling for blood saying they are not investing in the club.  How many fans kept saying we need to get rid of the dead wood blah blah blah!!

For the record I agree with you it was stupid to rip and replace so quickly it should have been this summer where we started the rebuild after a year of getting to understand the club but Todd knows best. Should have kept all the people who have been running club for at least 12 months to have smooth transition.

5 minutes ago, El regreso said:

No chance the fans would have been calling for blood saying they are not investing in the club.  How many fans kept saying we need to get rid of the dead wood blah blah blah!!

For the record I agree with you it was stupid to rip and replace so quickly it should have been this summer where we started the rebuild after a year of getting to understand the club but Todd knows best. Should have kept all the people who have been running club for at least 12 months to have smooth transition.

Yeah, I know exactly what the narrative would've been on here if Todd didn't sign any players this season. When the owners first tookover people were afraid it was going to be another Glazers or Kroenke situation. An owner who has little to no interest in the club and just wants to make a tidy no risk profit. You never see those American owners at any of the games, Boehly on the other hand, is actually genuinely interested in the club. And the poor fella has had to put up with quite a bit of abuse from fans in the stands. 

I highly rate our transfer window, I think we've overpaid for certain players, like Caicedo (who still looks like a gem to me) but shifting out all the deadwood was a genius move. Especially getting rid of Koulibaly which looked impossible at one point, I thought it was going to be another Bakayoko situation. 

I'm hoping in time this all ages very well, and I think it will. 

1 hour ago, Victor90 said:

Yeah, I know exactly what the narrative would've been on here if Todd didn't sign any players this season. When the owners first tookover people were afraid it was going to be another Glazers or Kroenke situation. An owner who has little to no interest in the club and just wants to make a tidy no risk profit. You never see those American owners at any of the games, Boehly on the other hand, is actually genuinely interested in the club. And the poor fella has had to put up with quite a bit of abuse from fans in the stands. 

I highly rate our transfer window, I think we've overpaid for certain players, like Caicedo (who still looks like a gem to me) but shifting out all the deadwood was a genius move. Especially getting rid of Koulibaly which looked impossible at one point, I thought it was going to be another Bakayoko situation. 

I'm hoping in time this all ages very well, and I think it will. 

Well, under Todd we had our worst EVER premier League season last year.

And our worst EVER start since 1978 this season 

I think I'll hold back on praising him for a while .

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Pochettino told the journos after the TV portion of the Friday interviews, when asked what reception he expects on Monday.

That the fans should know it was not his, or his staffs, wishes to leave Spurs, they were sacked, and had they not been sacked then they probably would still be there.

His mum has also nicknamed him "the crier". And he told the journos he does not know if he will be able to keep his emotions in check on Monday....

 

Oh dear...

Oh FFS that's all we need , him blubbering all over the place

1 hour ago, The Rising Sun said:

Oh FFS that's all we need , him blubbering all over the place

Poch on the outside when Spurs score tomorrow:

On the inside

This is the type of game the manager makes a name for himself. I'm sure Poch is up for it, let's hope the individuals don't let us down.

4 hours ago, The Rising Sun said:

Well, under Todd we had our worst EVER premier League season last year.

And our worst EVER start since 1978 this season 

I think I'll hold back on praising him for a while .

I don't think we'll know how good or bad this transfer window has been until a couple or a few years time. 

I'm personally pleased and impressed with performances on the pitch, I'm far from ecstatic with the results. I think Pochettino has cost us some points with his safe approaches. So I won't argue that we should be higher in the league table. I'm not asking anyone to praise him, we've taken a huge risk with our signings and I'm hoping it pays off and I believe it will. But I think some people on here have unrealistic expectations and that's why they can't cope when looking at the league table. I understand it, but I went into this season knowing that we're probably going to be midtable, but I'm hoping we can finish in the top 8 come the end of the season. 

All in all, I'm mostly looking at the performances, and I think we're making improvements with our football. Get some players back and we could possibly go on a decent run of good form. 

7 hours ago, The Rising Sun said:

We're supposed to have a world class academy. That's where we have been working with youth for years who are immersed in Chelsea.

Taking a gamble on youngsters from other club's youth systems with different cultures to ours while selling academy developed players to fund their purchase doesn't seem to make sense. 

It's a gamble, an unnecessary gamble I reckon.

🤑🤑🤑

12 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

🤑🤑🤑

Yup. Long term the goal is to make the ownership money, as it is for 17 of the other owners of PL clubs.

Only City and Newcastles owners do not care about money, as they have truly bottomless pockets already.

Edited November 6, 20232 yr by axman2526

11 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Pochettino told the journos after the TV portion of the Friday interviews, when asked what reception he expects on Monday.

That the fans should know it was not his, or his staffs, wishes to leave Spurs, they were sacked, and had they not been sacked then they probably would still be there.

His mum has also nicknamed him "the crier". And he told the journos he does not know if he will be able to keep his emotions in check on Monday....

 

Oh dear...

Hopefully these are mind games and he is preparing the team to fight for every yard on the pitch like a woman scorned... Mou was classic at it.

18 hours ago, evissy said:

We have a project. They have a yearly dumpster fire.

Having worked with a large number of uniformly inept project managers over the years, I am comfortable labelling our scattergun overspending on random young players as a project. 

Actually I take that back, there was one PM who was good. Unfortunately he was also a West Ham fan. He also once farted as we got into a lift from the tenth floor. Legend. 

16 hours ago, El regreso said:

No chance the fans would have been calling for blood saying they are not investing in the club.  How many fans kept saying we need to get rid of the dead wood blah blah blah!!

For the record I agree with you it was stupid to rip and replace so quickly it should have been this summer where we started the rebuild after a year of getting to understand the club but Todd knows best. Should have kept all the people who have been running club for at least 12 months to have smooth transition.

We did need to get rid of deadwood.

What we didn't need is to then spend more on younger deadwood.

I don't think anyone had an issue with letting Pulisic, Ziyech and CHO go but then when you replace them by spending £100m on Mudryk and Madueke you look at the squad and can't really say it's even the same standard as it was let alone better.

The lack of quality we've brought in is the issue not generally who we've sold.

Edited November 6, 20232 yr by Whats_The_Mata?

8 hours ago, PloKoon13 said:

Having worked with a large number of uniformly inept project managers over the years, I am comfortable labelling our scattergun overspending on random young players as a project. 

Actually I take that back, there was one PM who was good. Unfortunately he was also a West Ham fan. He also once farted as we got into a lift from the tenth floor. Legend. 

Blowing Bubbles out of his arse 😝

Has to be one of the most bizarre games of football I've ever watched.

This was the most frustrated I've ever been with the team all season, the game was wide open for a good hour, after the 2nd red it was just too easy and we still couldn't do it. Delighted with the points and the scoreline, but this does go to show how fragile our mentality is. 

All I can hope is Jackson and the rest of them pick up a lot of confidence from this game and stop sh*tting themselves.