3 hours ago, RickUK said:

No one "wants" Frank sacked, its just when you look at him solely as a manager right now, you cant see where the positives are at the minute. Or provide a good reason why he or the team will turn this around.

 

Its not wanting Frank sacked, out of dislike, its just a case of the job being too big for him in some peoples eyes, and a change might be the best way forward.    Not his fault, he took the job of the club he loved regardless of experience.   But in hindsight without the ban hed have been a million miles away from getting it.  So i think he should drop down the ladder, learn the art of management and tactics further; then in a few years maybe the opportunity will present itself again.    

Lets be real, there is a better chance of 12th place, who are 3 pts off us, catching us than us catching Spurs.   We will probably beat Fulham mind you, but its the games after which concern me.

Brilliant post,agree 100%.

You just had to watch Pep manage from the touchline, always cajoling and talking and tweaking the system, Frank stood motionless heavy with thought and Worry, not sure if the players should of sorted it out on the pitch, Silva or Kante have played with some of the worlds best, they must of seen it going tits up, but are they not allowed to sort it on the field, or is that going against the Managers system, but  with no proper system or structure he's doomed?

51 minutes ago, Wearyourblue said:

What boggles my mind is how fans think. Frank earned bank with last year's 66 points, but think AVB was garbage with his 64 points.
 

What boggles my mind is when people post this kind if thing without any context.

So why has Roman not sacked him yet then with all these points against him?

Surely you are not suggesting the man that had Carlo fired by text in the tunnel of Goodison park is too sentimental to see all of these points and not wield the axe?

It cannot be a lack of replacement, both a team builder in Tuchel and a serial winner in Allegri are unattached so what is it?

Edited January 4, 20215 yr by axman2526

"What boggles my mind is when people post this kind if thing without any context."

The context is we were a team coming off of 72 points the prior year. I'm of the opinion we would have hit at least 75 with an experienced manager.

33 minutes ago, Wearyourblue said:

What boggles my mind is how fans think. Frank earned bank with last year's 66 points, but think AVB was garbage with his 64 points.

Frank was at best bang average last year. Correct me if I'm wrong but the bar before FL last year was 75 points, every Chelsea manager before last season under RA has been sacked for less than 75 points, yet Frank's 66 is supposed to have earned him something, that's just love for the nostalgia.

Since Roman acquired Chelsea we have never gone consecutive years without a top 3 finish. Last season was the third season under Abramovich that we had under 70 points in the premier league. Every season like FL season last year has gotten a manager sacked, but people want to credit him.

I think Frank is struggling so much, that if you took Franks' starting 11, and told Sarri he was not allowed to use any of them, he would still finish ahead of FL.

It'd be what. Anjorin, Abraham, CHO across the top, Ross Barkley, Jorginho, Billy Gilmour in the MF, Alonso, Rudiger, Christensen, Azpi in the back, and Kepa in goal.

I'd still put money on Sarri to have more points with that lineup right now, than Frank does with our current squad.

I am all for people criticizing Frank for the recent results as the performances alongside the results have been indefensible but trying to discredit what he achieved last year and describing it as a bang average performance by Frank is just ludicrous. Firstly I am not a big fan of using the points across different seasons to justify whether its a superior or inferior season because the standards of the league differ each year and therefore different point levels represent a different level of achievement, for example Man U finished on 66 points in 2 seasons in a row last season 66 points got them 3rd and the season before 66 points got them 6th. At the moment there are a lot of stats being branded around about points per game etc. because it supports the narrative that Lampard is in a tough spot and therefore there are question marks over his future with us.

Firstly if I was to focus on the claim that last season was a bang average job done by Lampard we need to look at the circumstances around last season. The main areas which stick out in terms of exceptional circumstances are:

1. Transfer Ban

2. Loss of Hazard

3. Keeper with the worst Save % in the history of PL

4. Injuries (Kante, RLC, Kante & CHO)

Hazard contributed close to 50% of all our league goals in season 2018/19, We scored 63 and Hazard had 31 Goals and assists. Take 50% Goal contributions away from any team and they will struggle to match or better any point tally they put together never mind all the other factors which crippled us last season. Even though I hate the points metric but going with your stats we dropped 6 points in comparison to the previous season, 66 points in comparison to 72 points the season before. Hazard on his own is worth much more than 6 points but when you take into account RLC who was a key performer during 2018/19 was out with injury for majority of last season and Kante missed a large chunk it creates a huge void in our squad.

To fill that void during last season Frank gave debuts to 8 academy products whilst finishing in a top 4 spot, getting to an FA Cup Final and getting to the last 16 of the Champions League. We currently have 4 youth players who are an integral part of our squad and most likely worth in excess of £200m in value (Tammy, Mount, Reece & CHO). People will continuously say that he had no choice but to integrate the youth but even that narrative is not completely true, if Sarri was to continue I could see him extending Higuain's loan which would've meant Tammy would probably been sent out on loan again, I certainly don't see Mount and Billy breaking through either and Barkley taking a more dominant role in the starting 11. You talk about certain players who Sarri wouldve achieved a higher finish then Lampard with and 3 of them would most likely not even be in the fold had it not been for Lampard last season.

This season also has its challenges with a more congested season then usual and what feels like a completely brand new squad and Lampard will need to find a way to get them playing well together but calling last season bang average is ludicrous,   

19 minutes ago, Ballack & Blu said:

You just had to watch Pep manage from the touchline, always cajoling and talking and tweaking the system, Frank stood motionless heavy with thought and Worry, not sure if the players should of sorted it out on the pitch, Silva or Kante have played with some of the worlds best, they must of seen it going tits up, but are they not allowed to sort it on the field, or is that going against the Managers system, but  with no proper system or structure he's doomed?

He was outclassed tactically. I don't think anyone denies that. 

Last year Lampard did the same (outclassed) Mourinho himself on two occassions though. So while something has gone very, very wrong against good sides this season we know he can do it from previous evidence.

In the end I think those who wish for Lampard to replaced is going to get their wish though. The club won't lower it's standards for him and Top 4 has been the minimum requirement for years now. Can't reach that and you are sacked. And everyone can obviously see that we are in a terrible position to reach that goal this season with so many teams 6-10 points ahead of us.

 

5 minutes ago, Wearyourblue said:

"What boggles my mind is when people post this kind if thing without any context."

The context is we were a team coming off of 72 points the prior year. I'm of the opinion we would have hit at least 75 with an experienced manager.

With our best player gone and a transfer ban and implementing youth products into the first team.

34 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

So why has Roman not sacked him yet then with all these points against him?

Surely you are not suggesting the man that had Carlo fired by text in the tunnel of Goodison park is too sentimental to see all of these points and not wield the axe?

It cannot be a lack of replacement, both a team builder in Tuchel and a serial winner in Allegri are unattached so what is it?

In the middle of a pandemic, world is in lockdown and the fact that Lampard is a huge legend to the club its hard to put the boot in when someone doesn't want to leave. You know there will be a portion of fans up in arms about Lampard being sacked, but being honest Lampard whether he has brought youth through or not the way the team is playing is all wrong. Even with the wins iprior to this huge low point its not like Chelsea were flawless we rode our luck and say we had Kepa behind the sticks we might... would be lower than 8th with a lot of teams still having games in hand to play.

What annoys me most is the fans who are willing to give Lampard more time but also wanted Sarri to get the chop, the abuse that man took was absolutely unacceptable. Lampard is sitting as statistically our worst manager through the Roman era.... We either act now or hope Lampard shows us something that he hasn't really displayed since coming with tactical play, always thought this was a huge mistake getting a guy in who is this green he needed more time to learn the ropes not to be thrown in at the deep end.

13 minutes ago, Sindre said:

He was outclassed tactically. I don't think anyone denies that. 

Last year Lampard did the same (outclassed) Mourinho himself on two occassions though. So while something has gone very, very wrong against good sides this season we know he can do it from previous evidence.

In the end I think those who wish for Lampard to replaced is going to get their wish though. The club won't lower it's standards for him and Top 4 has been the minimum requirement for years now. Can't reach that and you are sacked. And everyone can obviously see that we are in a terrible position to reach that goal this season with so many teams 6-10 points ahead of us.

 

I Really don't want to see Frank become another Statistic, and it must pain him to think, why can't i get this lot to play like the Team he bossed for a decade, but i'm not sure he now knows what exactly to do, i'd hate to think he's lost the dressing room, but there must be some disquiet  with some of the players he doesn't select

Ok, let’s sack Frank and get Shevchenko in, rumours going round now Roman is looking at him. The grass is always greener on the other side...

38 minutes ago, Keitha313 said:

In the middle of a pandemic, world is in lockdown and the fact that Lampard is a huge legend to the club its hard to put the boot in when someone doesn't want to leave. You know there will be a portion of fans up in arms about Lampard being sacked, but being honest Lampard whether he has brought youth through or not the way the team is playing is all wrong. Even with the wins iprior to this huge low point its not like Chelsea were flawless we rode our luck and say we had Kepa behind the sticks we might... would be lower than 8th with a lot of teams still having games in hand to play.

What annoys me most is the fans who are willing to give Lampard more time but also wanted Sarri to get the chop, the abuse that man took was absolutely unacceptable. Lampard is sitting as statistically our worst manager through the Roman era.... We either act now or hope Lampard shows us something that he hasn't really displayed since coming with tactical play, always thought this was a huge mistake getting a guy in who is this green he needed more time to learn the ropes not to be thrown in at the deep end.

Fair enough on point two, but as far as point one goes Roman has shown he has a thick skin for making unpopular calls throughout his time here. Right from year one when most of us wanted Claudio to get one more year bit he believed in Jose, and he was right.

The state of the world matters little to him imo. If he lost faith in Frank, he would be gone.

2 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

Ok, let’s sack Frank and get Shevchenko in, rumours going round now Roman is looking at him. The grass is always greener on the other side...

Did not work signing him as a player so why not as a manager. Lol. Is he not the Ukraine manager? 

Just now, axman2526 said:

Did not work signing him as a player so why not as a manager. Lol. Is he not the Ukraine manager? 

He’ll certainly know how to get Werner firing(!)

Yeah he is, since 2016.

3 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

He’ll certainly know how to get Werner firing(!)

Yeah he is, since 2016.

Would that appointment make those of you happy who believe we should sack Frank?

 

Also how long before we get linked with another Chelsea ex in the current France manager?

Edited January 4, 20215 yr by axman2526

7 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

Ok, let’s sack Frank and get Shevchenko in, rumours going round now Roman is looking at him. The grass is always greener on the other side...

Like I said in the matchday thread, McClaren is available, surely worth a punt? 

Just now, Slojo said:

Like I said in the matchday thread, McClaren is available, surely worth a punt? 

Good one Slojo, Glenn Hoddle could also be considered.

1 minute ago, axman2526 said:

Good one Slojo, Glenn Hoddle could also be considered.

There must be some way we can get Alan Pardew out of Bulgaria. 

1 minute ago, Slojo said:

There must be some way we can get Alan Pardew out of Bulgaria. 

Well he is a Chelsea fan so that is a good step.

We could go for another Alan in Curbishley 😉

Lampard needs players for his football to work, he needs that Rice signing and if our wingers can't come back in form he needs another winger too.

We should really go for Rice in this window while Lampard still has the time to change things, if Olle could get Bruno when things started to get tough we should back Lampard to get Rice.

I can't quote on Chrome but:

"I am all for people criticizing Frank for the recent results as the performances alongside the results have been indefensible but trying to discredit what he achieved last year and describing it as a bang average performance by Frank is just ludicrous."

FL's style wears our players down, we run around too aimlessly, he praises Mount for running around aimlessly against City, I'm convinced the pandemic saved our season last year. It was a timeout you don't normally get, without it, I believe we are lucky to finish with 60 points.

"Firstly if I was to focus on the claim that last season was a bang average job done by Lampard we need to look at the circumstances around last season. The main areas which stick out in terms of exceptional circumstances are:"

1. Transfer Ban; We handled this and prepared for it well, we bought Kovacic and Pulisic, and had a slew of players coming back from loan to sort through.

2. Loss of Hazard; This is the focus way too much for those that think FL did a decent job, our problem was we had the same midfield and backline and GK available to FL that Sarri used, and we went from 39 goals conceded to 54.

3. Keeper with the worst Save % in the history of PL; He didn't have the worst save % the year prior, In my mind much of this is on Frank. FL is conceding more per game than Sarri did with a totally rebuilt back line and a new keeper. Our defensive struggles are coaching.

4. Injuries (Kante, RLC, Kante & CHO) Yet we were overcrowded in most of those positions any way last year. FL loaned out RLC anyway. we still had Kovacic, Jorginho, Mount, and Barkley and later Gilmour.

"Hazard contributed close to 50% of all our league goals in season 2018/19, We scored 63 and Hazard had 31 Goals and assists. Take 50% Goal contributions away from any team and they will struggle to match or better any point tally they put together never mind all the other factors which crippled us last season. "

Hazard had the best point output of his career under Sarri, the year before he accounted for 12 g and 4 assists. At worst we should thank Sarri for keeping Hazard's price high for this spending spree.

"Even though I hate the points metric but going with your stats we dropped 6 points in comparison to the previous season, 66 points in comparison to 72 points the season before. Hazard on his own is worth much more than 6 points but when you take into account RLC who was a key performer during 2018/19 was out with injury for majority of last season and Kante missed a large chunk it creates a huge void in our squad."

Mount was basically the same for FL as RLC was for Sarri, so that's a wash, and FL had no clue how to use Kante, we got less points / game with Kante than we did without him.

"To fill that void during last season Frank gave debuts to 8 academy products whilst finishing in a top 4 spot, getting to an FA Cup Final and getting to the last 16 of the Champions League. We currently have 4 youth players who are an integral part of our squad and most likely worth in excess of £200m in value (Tammy, Mount, Reece & CHO). People will continuously say that he had no choice but to integrate the youth but even that narrative is not completely true, if Sarri was to continue I could see him extending Higuain's loan which would've meant Tammy would probably been sent out on loan again, I certainly don't see Mount and Billy breaking through either and Barkley taking a more dominant role in the starting 11. You talk about certain players who Sarri wouldve achieved a higher finish then Lampard with and 3 of them would most likely not even be in the fold had it not been for Lampard last season."

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, I think Sarri wanted a young striker to learn from Higuain, because his movement is excellent. CHO did break in with Sarri at the age of 17.

"This season also has its challenges with a more congested season then usual and what feels like a completely brand new squad and Lampard will need to find a way to get them playing well together but calling last season bang average is ludicrous"

Ludicrous? for points it's one of our bottom 3 seasons of the last 17 years (since RA), circumstances are what make it average. From a points/production standpoint last season is the WORST season any Chelsea manager has had under Roman Abramovich and not been sacked. Last season was his grace season. This season is his results season, and they're ****.

"Lampard needs players for his football to work, he needs that Rice signing and if our wingers can't come back in form he needs another winger too.

We should really go for Rice in this window while Lampard still has the time to change things, if Olle could get Bruno when things started to get tough we should back Lampard to get Rice."

What's Rice supposed to do for us.. we have do many defensive minded midfielders - Mount, Kante, Kovacic and Jorginho, we need more creativity in the midfield.

32 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Lampard needs players for his football to work, he needs that Rice signing and if our wingers can't come back in form he needs another winger too.

We should really go for Rice in this window while Lampard still has the time to change things, if Olle could get Bruno when things started to get tough we should back Lampard to get Rice.

West Ham will take us to the cleaners. Pretty sure Bruno came in Jan to cover for not getting Sancho that summer. You would have to be a bold man to go to the board to ask for another £80m after spending £200m in the summer during a pandemic.

 

3 minutes ago, ducavis said:

West Ham will take us to the cleaners. Pretty sure Bruno came in Jan to cover for not getting Sancho that summer. You would have to be a bold man to go to the board to ask for another £80m after spending £200m in the summer during a pandemic.

 

You're right but if Lampard fails he might get sacked. In football sometimes if you throw enough money at it, it will produce something good in due time...

All games we should win I expect a change form Lampard to get us out of this rut.