On 28/11/2020 at 19:27, Gol15 said:

Kovacic should start against Spurs tomorrow but as soon as Kai is back in full fitness he's in the starting lineup.

I disagree. Kai Havertz hasn’t really done anything to merit his starting place while our midfield trio have been fantastic.

For me Havertz is on the bench in important games. He’ll still get a few starts and hopefully he will show us why he should be ahead of Kovacic.

3 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

I disagree. Kai Havertz hasn’t really done anything to merit his starting place while our midfield trio have been fantastic.

For me Havertz is on the bench in important games. He’ll still get a few starts and hopefully he will show us why he should be ahead of Kovacic.

He's one of our best players, if not for the virus that he caught he wouldn't even go out of the starting lineup in the first place.

 

26 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He's one of our best players, if not for the virus that he caught he wouldn't even go out of the starting lineup in the first place.

 

You keep saying this, without offering any proof whatsoever.  I watch every match and I am yet to see anything to warrant him getting a start, let alone be considered one of our best players.  The only memorable things he has done in a Blue shirt has been twice (or three times?) give the ball away in a dangerous area by overplaying it or losing control, resulting in the opposition scoring against us.

The lad might be the next best player in the world, but he hasn't shown anything yet to make me think it to be true.

8 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

You keep saying this, without offering any proof whatsoever.  I watch every match and I am yet to see anything to warrant him getting a start, let alone be considered one of our best players.  The only memorable things he has done in a Blue shirt has been twice (or three times?) give the ball away in a dangerous area by overplaying it or losing control, resulting in the opposition scoring against us.

The lad might be the next best player in the world, but he hasn't shown anything yet to make me think it to be true.

I'm sure he showed some moments of class early on but I'm struggling to remember anything specific. But if we're picking players on form (and we should be) then I agree, Havertz is not in the starting line-up right now. I'm not even sure where he fits in our current formation. 

5 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

You keep saying this, without offering any proof whatsoever.  I watch every match and I am yet to see anything to warrant him getting a start, let alone be considered one of our best players.  The only memorable things he has done in a Blue shirt has been twice (or three times?) give the ball away in a dangerous area by overplaying it or losing control, resulting in the opposition scoring against us.

The lad might be the next best player in the world, but he hasn't shown anything yet to make me think it to be true.

1. This implies that people here change their view when proof is given, that hasn't been my experience for the majority of the time, most people here just keep their own opinions no matter what.

2. Kai Havertz has played around 560 minutes in the Premier League so far, he has scored 1 goal and he made 2 assists. Mason Mount that is one of our best players this season played 720 minutes and has also scored 1 goal and made 2 assists. That means that Kai Havertz, despite coming to a new league and country without having a pre-season, is more efficient than Mount, which makes him in fact one of our best players. 

Here is another fun fact, someone has compared the goals scored by some older and younger players at the age of 21:

Sergio Augreo -78

Kai Havertz -77

Harry Kane -63

Lionel Messi -48

Robert Lewandowski -44

Christian Pulisic -44

Cristiano Ronaldo-27

Kai is one of the best talents in the world, he walks in the starting lineup without trying that hard, when he started playing in his position as an attacking central midfielder he was playing 90'minutes in 3 games in a row and made an assist against West Brom, then against Palace and then he scored a goal vs Southampton. Then Lampard changed the formation against Man United and Kai played only 45'minutes. 

To think that he wouldn't play against Sheffield and Newcastle is silly, he got the virus and that's that.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

1. This implies that people here change their view when proof is given, that hasn't been my experience for the majority of the time, most people here just keep their own opinions no matter what.

2. Kai Havertz has played around 560 minutes in the Premier League so far, he has scored 1 goal and he made 2 assists. Mason Mount that is one of our best players this season played 720 minutes and has also scored 1 goal and made 2 assists. That means that Kai Havertz, despite coming to a new league and country without having a pre-season, is more efficient than Mount, which makes him in fact one of our best players. 

Here is another fun fact, someone has compared the goals scored by some older and younger players at the age of 21:

Sergio Augreo -78

Kai Havertz -77

Harry Kane -63

Lionel Messi -48

Robert Lewandowski -44

Christian Pulisic -44

Cristiano Ronaldo-27

Kai is one of the best talents in the world, he walks in the starting lineup without trying that hard, when he started playing in his position as an attacking central midfielder he was playing 90'minutes in 3 games in a row and made an assist against West Brom, then against Palace and then he scored a goal vs Southampton. Then Lampard changed the formation against Man United and Kai played only 45'minutes. 

To think that he wouldn't play against Sheffield and Newcastle is silly, he got the virus and that's that.

I sorta knew you'd come back with a whole raft of selective statistics, totally ignoring the 2 or 3 times he has been directly responsible for goals against us by overplaying in dangerous areas. Or were they the assists you were referring to?

Any road up, I don't obtain my view on football from Transfermarkt, WhoScored.com or Google, I judge it on actually watching matches. 

If you are going to list the goals scored by random players at an arbitrary age, and use those statistics to back up a claim that you have made, then you have to qualify those statistics.  Who did they score against, what league was it in, who else was in the side when they scored those goals, what was the weather like, the referee, what did the opposing goal-keeper have for supper the night before?  Were all of these other players' goals against such quality opposition as West Brom, Palace and Southampton?

You can't just take a number in isolation and treat it as anything other than a random number.

Come on man we all have eyes and can see that Kai hasn't started off with a bang, the stats can say he has assists as raw data but an assist can just be an easy pass to the scorer, there's more to football than that.

42 minutes ago, bluedave said:

I'm sure he showed some moments of class early on but I'm struggling to remember anything specific. But if we're picking players on form (and we should be) then I agree, Havertz is not in the starting line-up right now. I'm not even sure where he fits in our current formation. 

People seem to be salivating over how "effortless he makes things look", which is a totally pointless thing.  I know he is young and can improve, but he hasn't justified his price tag so far in my opinion.  

Where has this sudden criticism come from? Before the coronavirus, Chelsea fans were very happy with his performances, now suddenly he doesn't deserve to be picked in the first 11? I am all for players needing to earn their spot, but for me, Kante, Mount and Havertz is clearly going to be our best midfield going forward and the sooner we start playing them together, the better off we will be in the long run. 

Our best performance of the season came from those 3 playing together in midfield, everything just clicked and all 3 of them understood and executed their role perfectly. I want to see more of it as soon as possible. 

4 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

Our best performance of the season came from those 3 playing together in midfield, everything just clicked and all 3 of them understood and executed their role perfectly. I want to see more of it as soon as possible. 

Which game was this?

For me Havertz will need to be a littlebit patient. For all the hype and expectations he's been a bit underwhelming for me too. Still very much adjusting to the pace and physicality of the league. He's cost us a few points with some mistakes and we have been yet too see much of his creativity and passing on display. I am sure it will come so no reason to worry but currently he's not in my best XI either.

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by Sindre

15 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

Where has this sudden criticism come from? Before the coronavirus, Chelsea fans were very happy with his performances, now suddenly he doesn't deserve to be picked in the first 11? I am all for players needing to earn their spot, but for me, Kante, Mount and Havertz is clearly going to be our best midfield going forward and the sooner we start playing them together, the better off we will be in the long run. 

Our best performance of the season came from those 3 playing together in midfield, everything just clicked and all 3 of them understood and executed their role perfectly. I want to see more of it as soon as possible. 

Sorry, Scott, but this Chelsea fan wasn't "very happy with his performances"  I have yet to see anything that justifies him being a nailed on starter. What was your choice of "our best performance of the season"?  Not one of the ones where he gave the ball away costing us a goal against, was it?

57 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

I sorta knew you'd come back with a whole raft of selective statistics, totally ignoring the 2 or 3 times he has been directly responsible for goals against us by overplaying in dangerous areas. Or were they the assists you were referring to?

Any road up, I don't obtain my view on football from Transfermarkt, WhoScored.com or Google, I judge it on actually watching matches. 

If you are going to list the goals scored by random players at an arbitrary age, and use those statistics to back up a claim that you have made, then you have to qualify those statistics.  Who did they score against, what league was it in, who else was in the side when they scored those goals, what was the weather like, the referee, what did the opposing goal-keeper have for supper the night before?  Were all of these other players' goals against such quality opposition as West Brom, Palace and Southampton?

You can't just take a number in isolation and treat it as anything other than a random number.

 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

1. This implies that people here change their view when proof is given, that hasn't been my experience for the majority of the time, most people here just keep their own opinions no matter what.

 

28 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Which game was this?

For me Havertz will need to be a littlebit patient. For all the hype and expectations he's been a bit underwhelming for me too. Still very much adjusting to the pace and physicality of the league. He's cost us a few points with some mistakes and we have been yet too see much of his creativity and passing on display. I am sure it will come so no reason to worry but currently he's not in my best XI either.

Our best win this season was against Palace, Kai played the whole game. He barley came to a new league and is already putting up assists and goals just like Mount even while playing less time, everyone praise Mount which in itself is fine but now somehow Kai is seen as a bad player that shouldn't play.

I simply see this as a double standard and I don't really see how he wouldn't be playing if he hadn't got the virus... Yes he gave away the ball once that led to a goal, fact is after that mistake Lampard kept playing him but sure make a narrative against another foreign player now!

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by Gol15

24 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Which game was this?

For me Havertz will need to be a littlebit patient. For all the hype and expectations he's been a bit underwhelming for me too. Still very much adjusting to the pace and physicality of the league. He's cost us a few points with some mistakes and we have been yet too see much of his creativity and passing on display. I am sure it will come so no reason to worry but currently he's not in my best XI either.

The 3-0 away win against Burnley. All 3 of them we brilliant that day and there was a lot of excitement from fans at the time, even the pundits and commentators were highlighting how good they were. I have no doubt that Lampard would have stuck with it if Havertz didn't catch the Covid-19.

Just now, Gol15 said:

Our best win this season was against Southampton, Kai played the whole game. He barley came to a new league and is already putting up assists and goals just like Mount even while playing less time, everyone praise Mount which in itself is fine but now somehow Kai is seen as a bad player that shouldn't play.

I simply see this as a double standard and I don't really see how he wouldn't be playing if he hadn't got the virus... Yes he gave away the ball once that led to a goal, fact is after that mistake Lampard kept playing him but sure make a narrative against another foreign player now!

We didn't win mate. As a matter of fact Southamptons comeback started when Havertz needlessly gave the ball away and they got a goal at the worst time possible for us, right before half-time.

I don't see how it can be double standards. I am just stating my opinion the way i see it.

4 minutes ago, Sindre said:

We didn't win mate. As a matter of fact Southamptons comeback started when Havertz needlessly gave the ball away and they got a goal at the worst time possible for us, right before half-time.

I don't see how it can be double standards. I am just stating my opinion the way i see it.

I mean Palace, I edited my post. That was our biggest win, 4:0 against a semi-decent opponent. Kai is only 21 yet already has over 75 goals and over 35 assists made, he came to a new league and country and without a pre season still managed to make a good impact, sometimes it helps if people were to look at the big picture but I get it he's another foreigner so he must be diminished just like Pulisic was bashed even before he played a single minute for us...

I think there is plenty of game time to be distributed amongst the squad, I am sure Kai will get the nod against Sevilla and that will be an opportunity for him to force himself back into the starting 11 similar to how Kova benefitted from Kai missing a few games.

Kova and Kai are both incredible options for our midfield especially as they offer something different to the other, for example against stronger teams we play Kova to offer protection to the backline and have Kai come on if we are chasing a game whereas Kai starts against a low block to offer us creativity.

Does my head in stats, you can get an assist for a 1 yard pass and the other player smashes it in the top corner from 30 yards.

So much better to actually watch a football match and have an opinion than get obsessed over some random person putting on aerial duels won etc on twitter.

1 hour ago, yorkleyblue said:

I sorta knew you'd come back with a whole raft of selective statistics, totally ignoring the 2 or 3 times he has been directly responsible for goals against us by overplaying in dangerous areas. Or were they the assists you were referring to?

Any road up, I don't obtain my view on football from Transfermarkt, WhoScored.com or Google, I judge it on actually watching matches. 

If you are going to list the goals scored by random players at an arbitrary age, and use those statistics to back up a claim that you have made, then you have to qualify those statistics.  Who did they score against, what league was it in, who else was in the side when they scored those goals, what was the weather like, the referee, what did the opposing goal-keeper have for supper the night before?  Were all of these other players' goals against such quality opposition as West Brom, Palace and Southampton?

You can't just take a number in isolation and treat it as anything other than a random number.

Is it 2 or 3 times?  Can't be both.

Would encourage you to closely watch his positional play and movement - that is timing that few in our squad have, and at the top level, can often be the difference.  We benefit from this and he deserves time to show that.  To be fair, the start of the season (fitness), new country and league, plus covid, only make the situation all the more promising to me.

I do agree with you that it is hard to drop Kovacic, and personally I rate Mount very high.  But they can rotate - I would sit Mount for a game and give Kai a chance.  One thing we do lack is goals from midfield, and Kai can help change this.

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by PhilH930

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

Where has this sudden criticism come from? Before the coronavirus, Chelsea fans were very happy with his performances, now suddenly he doesn't deserve to be picked in the first 11? I am all for players needing to earn their spot, but for me, Kante, Mount and Havertz is clearly going to be our best midfield going forward and the sooner we start playing them together, the better off we will be in the long run. 

Our best performance of the season came from those 3 playing together in midfield, everything just clicked and all 3 of them understood and executed their role perfectly. I want to see more of it as soon as possible. 

I think a few of us disagreed with the assertion that he's been "one of our best players this season", when in reality he hasn't stood out much at all (so far), and when he has stood out, it's sometimes been for the wrong reasons. Out of all of our new signings this season, he's impressed me the least (so far). 

If he's as good as people say he is then he'll become first choice eventually, but what's important are his performances for Chelsea and not how amazing he was for Leverkusen in a weaker league. It's obvious he has excellent technical ability, which is why people talk about him looking 'effortless' and the like, but he hasn't really applied it all that effectively (so far).

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

1. This implies that people here change their view when proof is given, that hasn't been my experience for the majority of the time, most people here just keep their own opinions no matter what.

2. Kai Havertz has played around 560 minutes in the Premier League so far, he has scored 1 goal and he made 2 assists. Mason Mount that is one of our best players this season played 720 minutes and has also scored 1 goal and made 2 assists. That means that Kai Havertz, despite coming to a new league and country without having a pre-season, is more efficient than Mount, which makes him in fact one of our best players. 

Here is another fun fact, someone has compared the goals scored by some older and younger players at the age of 21:

Sergio Augreo -78

Kai Havertz -77

Harry Kane -63

Lionel Messi -48

Robert Lewandowski -44

Christian Pulisic -44

Cristiano Ronaldo-27

Kai is one of the best talents in the world, he walks in the starting lineup without trying that hard, when he started playing in his position as an attacking central midfielder he was playing 90'minutes in 3 games in a row and made an assist against West Brom, then against Palace and then he scored a goal vs Southampton. Then Lampard changed the formation against Man United and Kai played only 45'minutes. 

To think that he wouldn't play against Sheffield and Newcastle is silly, he got the virus and that's that.

When looking Havertz has 1 goal and 1 assist and my nan would have scored that goal. Just showing what happens when you look at stats in deeper detail. 

2 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

You keep saying this, without offering any proof whatsoever.  I watch every match and I am yet to see anything to warrant him getting a start, let alone be considered one of our best players.  The only memorable things he has done in a Blue shirt has been twice (or three times?) give the ball away in a dangerous area by overplaying it or losing control, resulting in the opposition scoring against us.

The lad might be the next best player in the world, but he hasn't shown anything yet to make me think it to be true.

He obviously hasn't shown signs he's worth the price tag but he's barely played and he's still very young. Give him some time to adjust first. But Lampard definitely rates him, the only reason he isn't playing was due to Covid and getting back into fitness, before that he was always starting games. 

Yeah just give him time to get back full match fitness and settle back down into the team. Frank called it right yesterday not starting him. But i want to see him start against Leeds with Mount both 8's controlling our attacks with Kante behind, the more they can get it together the better.

7 minutes ago, coco said:

Yeah just give him time to get back full match fitness and settle back down into the team. Frank called it right yesterday not starting him. But i want to see him start against Leeds with Mount both 8's controlling our attacks with Kante behind, the more they can get it together the better.

He'll likely start against Sevilla also. He was playing twice a week before testing positive. 

Mount and Kai in front of Kante against Leeds and we will dominate.