24 minutes ago, Snedger said:

I agree with that and am bemused by how often you hear that said. However, I am still firmly of the belief that he is a completely useless centre forward. He might be quick, he might make runs, but there must surely to God be someone else quick who can run and can even score a handful of goals too. The saddest moment for Werner last night was seeing a great cross drift over the head of our barely 5 foot tall centre forward.

The big problem we have and can't address until the season is over is that we just don't have an alternative. Giroud can't play in the pacey set-up but can at least finish, and Abraham would have been tall enough but without doubt would have headed it over the bar.

Fair enough. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion and the case against Werner is admittedly strong. I’m just not ready to succumb to it yet, as I see potential and think he deserves another season to prove himself. 

23 minutes ago, coco said:

So are you.

???

i'm not giving up on Timo either. His work rate, positional play and pace are vital in the current system.

He isnt a centre forward though but could end up a fantastic second striker with the right partner.

24 minutes ago, Wearyourcolours said:

No stats tell the whole story, CHO generally comes on when teams are tired, has played less games so his stats are inflated.

I think everyone would agree that the thing missing from CHO’s game is end product consistently. 
 

Back to Werner, he reminds me so much of Torres, good movement, occupies defenders, just not enough goals!

Would he be better in a two?

Not really. CHO end product is not a problem. He will produce tons of assist if you played him as lw,not goals though he is not a goalscorer. 

The problem with CHO is consistency, last year there is no way that I will play cho over Willian or Pulisic but this season is whole another story. 

If you want werner to be better, we need to play faster but it is irrelevant. With the way he play, It is crazy to play to get the best out of timo. 

 

 

Just now, Wearyourcolours said:

???

Assuming Bob Stark is of African decent just because Callum is black is pathetic.

29 minutes ago, coco said:

He's talking utter bollocks.

Really? You think Abraham would still be in the team if he’d scored 3 goals in 25 or so games? The answer is no, not a chance. He can’t even get in the team when he’s the top scorer after not playing for half the season. The goalposts are massively skewed even by fans for expensive signings purely to justify their selection.

2 hours ago, Dean said:

I disagree. It’s a narrative parroted by many that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny . How does it square with James and Mount getting regular playing time in the first team, with CHO being given plenty of chances while a lot of big signings aren’t starting regularly? If what Rio is saying were true, Havertz would surely have started ahead of Mount, and Kepa would be in goal. 

Neither of those players have expensive players in front of them. Reece has an aging Azpi as competition and Mount I suppose you could argue has Kai but it’s literally impossible for Tuchel to leave Mount out when he performs as he does which is to a world class level. Neither of those scenarios are comparable. How about Billy Gilmour? All but disappeared since TT arrival.

2 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Really? You think Abraham would still be in the team if he’d scored 3 goals in 25 or so games? The answer is no, not a chance. He can’t even get in the team when he’s the top scorer after not playing for half the season. The goalposts are massively skewed even by fans for expensive signings purely to justify their selection.

Rio isnt saying that, he's saying that they don't get the same treatment, which is complete bollocks proven by the fact last night in our biggest game, we had Mount on the pitch and Havertz and Ziyech on the bench, so yes its bollocks.

1 minute ago, coco said:

Rio isnt saying that, he's saying that they don't get the same treatment, which is complete bollocks proven by the fact last night in our biggest game, we had Mount on the pitch and Havertz and Ziyech on the bench, so yes its bollocks.

That’s literally the exact quote. “Does a young player get the time Timo Werner gets”... No, the answer is no - look at Tammy as I’ve already said. He would not be in the team if he has the output of Werner. What he said is correct, young players particularly at Chelsea do not get the time that expensive signings do.

1 minute ago, EdinburghBlue said:

That’s literally the exact quote. “Does a young player get the time Timo Werner gets”... No, the answer is no - look at Tammy as I’ve already said. He would not be in the team if he has the output of Werner. What he said is correct, young players particularly at Chelsea do not get the time that expensive signings do.

Well i totally disagree on this one mate 

1 minute ago, EdinburghBlue said:

That’s literally the exact quote. “Does a young player get the time Timo Werner gets”... No, the answer is no - look at Tammy as I’ve already said. He would not be in the team if he has the output of Werner. What he said is correct, young players particularly at Chelsea do not get the time that expensive signings do.

It's not just about goals though.

Werner's got a huge fault which is his finishing but other than that he's a good assister, he makes clever runs opening up spaces for others and his workrate is immense. And i'd also argue he's proved to be a better target-man then Tammy despite his size.

 

5 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Neither of those players have expensive players in front of them. Reece has an aging Azpi as competition and Mount I suppose you could argue has Kai but it’s literally impossible for Tuchel to leave Mount out when he performs as he does which is to a world class level. Neither of those scenarios are comparable. How about Billy Gilmour? All but disappeared since TT arrival.

Fair points. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I just don’t buy it. With Tammy, absence is making many of our hearts grow fonder. We were hardly raving about him when he was getting selected. As for Billy, I mean he’s REALLY young but I would have thought it’s the inexperience rather than the being young itself that makes TT reluctant to pick him. Bottom line - I just don’t think TT has it in for our young players. 

1 minute ago, Sindre said:

It's not just about goals though.

Werner's got a huge fault which is his finishing but other than that he's a good assister, he makes clever runs opening up spaces for others and his workrate is immense. And i'd also argue he's proved to be a better target-man then Tammy despite his size.

 

This is literally one of the many excuses I used for Torres and Morata when I continued to defend them despite it being clear they weren’t the answer. Maybe playing off the left or in behind but as a number 9? Werner isn’t the answer. His goal output and the big chances missed stat someone posted is genuinely terrible - I’m not even sure Morata and Torres had that bad conversation rates. His off the ball work is good, I don’t dispute that but that’s not the key thing you want from a striker unless the rest of your team can cover the lack of goals.

The problem then is, is he better than Pulisic off the left or Mount at the 10? The answer again for me is no so I struggle to see where he fits other than rotating in based on form.

I actually seen this posted on Twitter, I know they’re taking the piss but that’s quite scary in one season is it not? 

 

31 minutes ago, Wearyourcolours said:

???

Do you also assume that the people supporting Pulisic are of Croatian descent?

Lets swap it around. using Pulisic this time, would you say "you must be of Croatian descent" ? no you wouldn't, you would assume they are American because his nationality is American, the country he plays for. 

1 hour ago, Dean said:

I don’t think you understood what I was saying.

Actually i do. My point was Mount has been one of our best and most consistent player under Tuchel, he simply can't play Havertz over Mount otherwise he will lose the dressing room. Imagine if Mount had two of Ziyech anonymous performances, I am pretty sure Havertz will start over him. 

48 minutes ago, Dean said:

I take your points, Imran. I have a slightly more favourable opinion of Werner than the consensus, which I fully accept and respect. But my main pushback is this: why Tammy and not Giroud? I think we’d all agree that Giroud is a more effective centre forward, yet he’s not getting selected either. So how does that fit into Rio’s narrative that our young players are being sacrificed to accommodate the big signings? If he’s going to say that, he kind of also has to say that aged but proven strikers are also being overlooked. In other words, only half of his equation holds up. I’m not even sure about that though. I think by and large our first team is being picked on merit.

I get the point in terms of countering Rio's statement and I completely agree with your sentiment that it's not a youth thing and more aligned with the playing style which Tuchel wants to implement, my only gripe with Tuchel is he needs to give the CF's more playing time be it Tammy or Giroud.

We've scored more then 2 goals in a game under Tuchel on 1 occasion and even though defensively we've been excellent we have struggled to put the ball in the back of the net, in my view it doesn't make sense to not play a genuine CF especially if you are struggling to convert chances.    

Time to stop these excuses about new league, low on confidence etc now. He's been here for 7 months. At what point does it change where he has adjusted to a new league and gain confidence? Maybe his girlfriend should come out and comfirm whether he is also low on confidence in the bedroom and will suddenly change after 12 months pass.

32 minutes ago, coco said:

Do you also assume that the people supporting Pulisic are of Croatian descent?

Lets swap it around. using Pulisic this time, would you say "you must be of Croatian descent" ? no you wouldn't, you would assume they are American because his nationality is American, the country he plays for. 

No my assumption and that’s all it was, was based on posts by Bob about a few of our players with African heritage.

No more no less

46 minutes ago, Wearyourcolours said:

No my assumption and that’s all it was, was based on posts by Bob about a few of our players with African heritage.

Can you please point out to me what Bob said that makes you think he's of African descent ?   i just looked and he doesn't mention anything to give you that idea, you were the first to bring up African descent.

13 hours ago, cfc97 said:

We made mistake by holding to Torres for 3 years, when he should be sold after first season. Hope club doesnt make that mistake again. There is a reason why Chelsea won Premier League with Drogba and Costa and only fight for top 4 with players like Torres, Morata or now Werner. Club need better striker.

We held on to to Torres due to credibility, we had forked out a massive investment and would be lucky to get half our investment back.

 Fortunately Timo is not at that financial level, if we need to take a 50% cut off his asking price we can.

Should we acquire Haaland though and he starts misfiring we might be back to the Torres scenario, nothing is guaranteed just probabilities.

10 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

We held on to to Torres due to credibility, we had forked out a massive investment and would be lucky to get half our investment back.

 Fortunately Timo is not at that financial level, if we need to take a 50% cut off his asking price we can.

Should we acquire Haaland though and he starts misfiring we might be back to the Torres scenario, nothing is guaranteed just probabilities.

Two more games to win to be in the Haaland race. 

We'll be very careful about buying him though. Surely we can't buy three expensive dud strikers in a row. We're due a Costa or Crespo surely!

7 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

We're due a Costa or Crespo surely!

Costa yes, but with Crespo, we don’t have too far off so far in Timo.

I've backed Werner all season through his struggles and will continue to do so but he doesn't make it easy 😅. We have 5 games left in the prem, 1 fa cup final and between 1-2 games in the UCL. Now is the time where he really needs to step up because everyone else is doing their job we're not asking him to be phenomenal we just want him to put away the sitters.

Personally it will be interesting to see what route TT takes vs Fulham and the return leg. Werner has performed in some big games this  season and I can see an argument for him starting again next week but I'm not sure that is in our best interest. 

I assume Kai and Hakim will play at the weekend because Mount and Christian will need a rest for the return leg. I would start Werner alongside the former and whoever plays best out of the 3 should play with Puli and Make on Wednesday IMO.

Edited April 28, 20215 yr by LongtimerLurker

It's a funny one because I think it's something of a catch 22. We want to, broadly, keep playing the same way and getting the same chances, but we also want someone to finish them off. However, I don't necessarily think that it's as simple as swapping Timo out for Oli, Tammy, Kai or anyone else in our squad, because it'll completely change how we play and how other teams setup against us. Timo does work hard, he does provide assists and his movement and pace occupies defenders and causes them problems. Real were very aware of him, and it afforded space in the midfield for the likes of Kante and Mount to run into at times. Yes, he doesn't appear to be much of a goal threat and misses golden chances, but I don't think any team would be willing to take the risk of leaving him alone to do what he wants and play into his strengths of running beyond them at will. Especially if we're going to be playing the game of 'keep it solid and hit them on the break'. 

Ultimately though he's failing at his primary job of being a striker - at this level you need to be taking your chances more often than not, especially when you may only get 1 or 2 in these big games. Benzema did basically nothing all game, but when he did, he hit the post and scored a great goal to level it up. I'm fairly sure we'll see someone else given a shot up front against Fulham so it'll be interesting to see who, and how they do, although I think it's also pretty clear at this stage of the season that the club must be lining up another striker for the summer.

In terms of Rios quote for me EB and Coco are both correct.

In terms of Tammy no he has not been given the chance that Timo has, certainly under TT. 

In terms of youth in general it is rubbish though. TT in his first game dropped Mount, Mount then made himself unstoppable and now he is one of the first names on the sheet.

James gets plenty of game time, CHO a decent amount too, so does Christensen who, yes is not really young anymore, is still a youth product.