Declan Rice to Chelsea?

[PhilH930]

He’s nowhere near Kovacic at the moment. Priority is a keeper and integrating new signings. Rice can be pursued next summer 

[chiefBlueCFC]

Have we signed this guy for 45M yet?

[The Don Antonio]

Ndidi is waay better than Rice

[evissy]

8 hours ago, The Don Antonio said:

Ndidi is waay better than Rice

Ndidi is not the leader type. Remember why we would want Rice.

[WhiteWall]

8 hours ago, evissy said:

Ndidi is not the leader type. Remember why we would want Rice.

I would still temper this by saying that there is a big difference between shouting and cajoling a group of muppets that regularly go missing or just basically fail and actaully being a leader amongst a group of internationals and players used to playing at the highest levels in european and domestic football. In short there is a big difference in shouting at a bang average player like Jarrod Bowen for not doing the basics, than there is in trying to tell a premium league champion and world cup winner like n'Golo Kante on what to do. Especially when many of thes eplayers have spent the last few years comign up against and pocketing Declan Rice with ease

[The Don Antonio]

10 hours ago, evissy said:

Ndidi is not the leader type. Remember why we would want Rice.

     I know what you mean about his leadership but i think we should be looking at players based on talent and not leadership. Based on Talent Ndidi is better than Rice and has been a dominant midfield figure in the league for the past 3 years. He has succesfully replaced Kante at Leicester which is no easy feat and could easily do the same for us. He also helps with is height 6"2 because we are a short team and is just 24 and about to reach his prime. Hopefully Rice can improve this season but honestly he is just English hype that is just magnified because he came through our academy.

[evissy]

If the reports are correct and Frank wants leadership and he wants players to be vocal it is really not my opinion. I am basing my writing on what Frank apparently wants.

I don't think Rice is one of the best young players out there. Ndidi is absolutely the more talented player from the two in pure footballing abilities on terms of a DM. Rice is a natural leader-type, very versatile (something Frank seem to value), familiar to the club and apparently a player Frank wants. 

I was thinking the options we have if we don't buy anyone for that DM spot... Kante can handle that DM spot in a 4-3-3 although for him it is not natural. Behind him I would say James is the next best thing for that spot. Jorginho, Kovacic, Gilmour would all struggle to be the shop-stop behind Havertz and Mount vacating the more advanced spots... 

[evissy]

18 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

I would still temper this by saying that there is a big difference between shouting and cajoling a group of muppets that regularly go missing or just basically fail and actaully being a leader amongst a group of internationals and players used to playing at the highest levels in european and domestic football. In short there is a big difference in shouting at a bang average player like Jarrod Bowen for not doing the basics, than there is in trying to tell a premium league champion and world cup winner like n'Golo Kante on what to do. Especially when many of thes eplayers have spent the last few years comign up against and pocketing Declan Rice with ease

If Rice is a natural leader it doesn't matter if he is 21. Others will follow. I don't think anyone of our players would go into mutiny. 

[WhiteWall]

2 hours ago, evissy said:

If Rice is a natural leader it doesn't matter if he is 21. Others will follow. I don't think anyone of our players would go into mutiny. 

I'm not sure age was mentioned. My point is who is this guy who has spent his career playing for seasonal relegation fodder to start telling World Cup winners where to go and what to do. Its nothing to do with age. I suspect that if he tried to tell Thiago Silva about his shortcomings he'd get a proper rinsing. That's what I was referring to the possibility of.

[ashwin]

2 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

I'm not sure age was mentioned. My point is who is this guy who has spent his career playing for seasonal relegation fodder to start telling World Cup winners where to go and what to do. Its nothing to do with age. I suspect that if he tried to tell Thiago Silva about his shortcomings he'd get a proper rinsing. That's what I was referring to the possibility of.

He is 21, his career has barely begun. Someone like him will be accepted as a leader in the long-term, not immediately. Pretty sure Desailly would not have taken kindly to a 21-22 yo John Terry telling him what to do. But he went on to become club captain at 24-25 because he displayed excellent leadership ability in the meanwhile. Not sure what your point is?

[rtwelch]

If anyone has watched any of the Spurs (Don't kill me alright) All or Nothing series you can see how lacklustre Harry Kane's pre match speeches are. Can you imagine how crap they are in our dressing room? Azpi shouting come on guys let's do it for 36 games a season.  It's actually no wonder we always start slowly as a team. We need players in to get them going. Unsure if Rice is the guy for this and T Silva is definitely a good start.

[dkw]

38 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

I'm not sure age was mentioned. My point is who is this guy who has spent his career playing for seasonal relegation fodder to start telling World Cup winners where to go and what to do. Its nothing to do with age. I suspect that if he tried to tell Thiago Silva about his shortcomings he'd get a proper rinsing. That's what I was referring to the possibility of.

Have you ever played football at a decent level? (thats not me being condescending by the way, its a genuine question). I've played for 34 year old captains have played professionally that were terrible captains, no motivation from them, just had a bad "I played pro dont you know" attitude and he got sod all from us as players. I've also played for 20 year old captains who were outstanding captains, knew how to motivate a player, knew when to shout, when to cajole, when to offer acceptance etc and they had the players running through brick walls., including old muppets like me ha ha. There really is no hard and fast rule, some are born leaders, some are terrible leaders, some grow into it. 

[ForeverCarefree]

55 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

I'm not sure age was mentioned. My point is who is this guy who has spent his career playing for seasonal relegation fodder to start telling World Cup winners where to go and what to do. Its nothing to do with age. 

Like when a 21 year old John Terry, who had no winners medals to his name, was made captain of Chelsea ahead of players who between them had won everything going? 

[Guest Sindre]

 

 

[WhiteWall]

33 minutes ago, dkw said:

Have you ever played football at a decent level? (thats not me being condescending by the way, its a genuine question). I've played for 34 year old captains have played professionally that were terrible captains, no motivation from them, just had a bad "I played pro dont you know" attitude and he got sod all from us as players. I've also played for 20 year old captains who were outstanding captains, knew how to motivate a player, knew when to shout, when to cajole, when to offer acceptance etc and they had the players running through brick walls., including old muppets like me ha ha. There really is no hard and fast rule, some are born leaders, some are terrible leaders, some grow into it. 

Hey, I'm not disputing any of that, all I am saying is that I don't know that it is a given that Declan Rice is a natural born leader of teammates. I really hope he is because it is something we definitely lack in this squad. I am just not totally convinced that the environment as west ham is necessarily comparable with ours.

[WhiteWall]

24 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Like when a 21 year old John Terry, who had no winners medals to his name, was made captain of Chelsea ahead of players who between them had won everything going? 

Again I don't disagree but it wasn't the exact point I was trying to make. JT was Chelsea from day one and grew into the team, exactly as Rice has done at West ham. However JT immediately gained creedence for breaking through into a stellar squad that was full of international stars and honours. Declan Rice broke through in a team where Mark Noble is classed as a legend. Like I said, I hope he is a natural born leader and can add to Jorginho's organizational and passing skills, with power pace, and communication (although I don't think Jorginho's communication is particularly bad).  Al I am saying is that as highly as he may be rated, I still think coming to Chelsea is a higher level and we therefore shouldn't just expect that the characteristics that he may currently display to translate to here.

[bisright1]

8 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

Again I don't disagree but it wasn't the exact point I was trying to make. JT was Chelsea from day one and grew into the team, exactly as Rice has done at West ham. However JT immediately gained creedence for breaking through into a stellar squad that was full of international stars and honours. Declan Rice broke through in a team where Mark Noble is classed as a legend. Like I said, I hope he is a natural born leader and can add to Jorginho's organizational and passing skills, with power pace, and communication (although I don't think Jorginho's communication is particularly bad).  Al I am saying is that as highly as he may be rated, I still think coming to Chelsea is a higher level and we therefore shouldn't just expect that the characteristics that he may currently display to translate to here.

John terry was known for being a leader before he had even got close to being a first team.  He was vocal the moment be got elevated into first team training. 

He gained credence because he spoke with clarity and confidence. By all accounts Rice is the same character. 

Whether he's good enough to play for us is different, but I think he is. 

Bear in mind southgate saw fit to start him in both games for England recently. It's not just at West Ham or by Lampard he is rated. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by bisright1

[ozboy]

Probably harder to get into Chelsea midfield than England midfield. 

[bisright1]

3 minutes ago, ozboy said:

Probably harder to get into Chelsea midfield than England midfield. 

Wouldn't be so sure. We started Ruben on Monday. 

[Droopy]

2 hours ago, rtwelch said:

If anyone has watched any of the Spurs (Don't kill me alright) All or Nothing series you can see how lacklustre Harry Kane's pre match speeches are. Can you imagine how crap they are in our dressing room? Azpi shouting come on guys let's do it for 36 games a season.  It's actually no wonder we always start slowly as a team. We need players in to get them going. Unsure if Rice is the guy for this and T Silva is definitely a good start.

Yeah, Dave doesn't display any confidence as a captain. He is not respectable and I've been saying that for years.

But to have someone that is young, inexperienced, have limited talent and just arrived at the club and to expect him to start shouting at world class players - this is not happening. And this is not happening because he is probably not that dumb to do it. 

Are we really going to spend 60+ millions for mediocre player only because he might give motivational speeches in 2-3 seasons? This is simply an absurd argument. 

[ozboy]

On leadership there’s ye olde English rhyme “the grand old duke of York< he had 10,000 men, he lead thenm up to the top of the hill, and he lead them down again”. 
 

There is leadership, there is coordination, there is communication, there are relationships. Basically getting the team to operate as a team. It’s built on trust. Rice won’t earn that immediately and I still can’t see where he will fit in the team. 
 

if in central defence, observers who have watched him more than me have raised questions. If in midfield getting into the team will be very tough this season assuming Kante stays. My best team has havertz at 10 which leaves twon spots  at most. Kante, Kovacic, gilmour , Jorginho Barkley, RLC are all sort of competing for central midfield. In my team Kovacic and Kante own those spots 

[evissy]

19 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

I'm not sure age was mentioned. My point is who is this guy who has spent his career playing for seasonal relegation fodder to start telling World Cup winners where to go and what to do. Its nothing to do with age. I suspect that if he tried to tell Thiago Silva about his shortcomings he'd get a proper rinsing. That's what I was referring to the possibility of.

Not really but I am guessing age is at least a part of it. Rice is young and he has worked with these lower level players. If he has the character everyone is raving about he is intelligent enough to get people to his side and to work together no matter if the player is World Cup winner and one of the best in the business.

I think the dynamic goes from getting to know teammates on a personal level to gain trust and then to show your leadership on the pitch with footballing ability and bravery. It is not really a complicated combo. Takes a bit of time as everyone suggest here. 

I've watched some videos of him on YouTube being all silly and some videos showing off his skills. He seems like a guy people naturally like and get drawn to. He is also the vice captain for West Ham behind their club legend Noble.

[dkw]

10 hours ago, ozboy said:

Basically getting the team to operate as a team. It’s built on trust. Rice won’t earn that immediately and I still can’t see where he will fit in the team. 
 

 

You have no idea if thats true, theres simply no way you can state that as fact.

[ozboy]

 

46 minutes ago, dkw said:

You have no idea if thats true, theres simply no way you can state that as fact.

You think all these established players will immediately accept him as leader, without him having to show them that he deserves it? I was only an average player myself, no matter how much I enjoyed it, but I worked in investment banking research teams at a high level for more than 30 years and did well. Leadership was recognized  over time and trust the same.. perhaps it’s different at Chelsea. 

Edited September 18, 2020 by ozboy

[driller97]

Good move by the board saying they dont want Rice. Lampard probably only wants him because he's Mount's friend.

We have a leader in Thiago Silva now, which makes Rice surplus. Especially with the amount on midfield options we have. Would much rather get Ampadu back into the team next year instead of wasting 80m on Rice.