33 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

This is not true.

Based on what? At River he had Enzo Pérez as the defensive midfielder. At Benfica he had Florentino Luís as the defensive midfielder. With Argentina he shuffled through multiple roles but his best football came when De Paul (box to box) switched off for Paredes/Guido Rodriguez (defensive midfielders) which allowed Enzo less defensive responsibility (Mexico, Netherlands, France in ET)

 

8 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

And we had the same issues with Jorginho for the past 4 years. Neither are good enough defensively on their own outside of short cup competitions. 

For Argentina he has De Paul doing most of the dirty work himself, who's doing that at Chelsea? The debut match you posted ended 0-0, with Fulham actually managing more shots on target than us. 

No one is saying he should play as an attacking mid or anything of the sort. Don't know if you followed Chelsea back then but think back to when Mourinho has Fabregas and Matic playing at the base of midfield together. It'd be the same. Enzo doing all the progressive passing and someone else doing the dirty work for him (De Paul for Argentina). I'm on my knees right now, PLEASE understand it. For the love of god and all that's holy please get the synapses firing. 

At the very least give him a full season. If Enzo then isn't good enough defensively then sure go ahead and experiment all you want but don't label him as a bad defensive player, it's really not fair nor objective.

Pochettino will most likely play 4-2-3-1 so Enzo should have a partner there, anything else of putting him forward is a crime.

Stop saying he's bad defensively, it's simply not true. Yes he can pass the ball really well, that still doesn't make him Fabregas in any sense. He's just a well-rounded midfielder.

7 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Based on what? At River he had Enzo Pérez as the defensive midfielder. At Benfica he had Florentino Luís as the defensive midfielder. With Argentina he shuffled through multiple roles but his best football came when De Paul (box to box) switched off for Paredes/Guido Rodriguez (defensive midfielders) which allowed Enzo less defensive responsibility (Mexico, Netherlands, France in ET)

 

And it still doesn't mean that most of the time Enzo was in front of any of those players, I have watched enough of him to know that he naturally gets to be doing two things:

1. Being at the base of the midfield
2. Distributing the ball forward from deep

In a 4-2-3-1 Enzo is still our DM player, not the AM player. And this formation is what Pochettino mainly played in the PL. Anything else is just experimenting with Enzo that is a world class talent, and for no reason. 

The responsibilities of being there where he plays, well you can argue that maybe someone should be more defensively oriented while he passes the ball but in practice if we don't have possession, OF COURSE you want Enzo to have a defensive role.

We won the CL while Werner, Mount and Kante had a defensive role, in the opposition half pressing high... Saying that Enzo should have less defensive responsibility when he naturally plays where he will have such a responsibility is a bit odd. Enzo isn't Kovacic.

Edited June 23, 20233 yr by Gol15

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

And it still doesn't mean that most of the time Enzo was in front of any of those players, I have watched enough of him to know that he naturally gets to be doing two things:

1. Being at the base of the midfield
2. Distributing the ball forward from deep

In a 4-2-3-1 Enzo is still our DM player, not the AM player. And this formation is what Pochettino mainly played in the PL. Anything else is just experimenting with Enzo that is a world class talent for no reason.
 

 Enzo can still operate as a deep lying playmaker in a 4231 accompanied by a traditional defensive midfielder in that pivot. As I've alluded to, at River, Benfica, and his very best with Argentina this has always been the case. 

It's like saying Xavi was a DM because he moreso than Busquets received the ball to begin the transition. 

3 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

 Enzo can still operate as a deep lying playmaker in a 4231 accompanied by a traditional defensive midfielder in that pivot. As I've alluded to, at River, Benfica, and his very best with Argentina this has always been the case. 

It's like saying Xavi was a DM because he moreso than Busquets received the ball to begin the transition. 

Busquets can very much also be described as a deep-lying playmaker. 

11 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

 Enzo can still operate as a deep lying playmaker in a 4231 accompanied by a traditional defensive midfielder in that pivot. As I've alluded to, at River, Benfica, and his very best with Argentina this has always been the case. 

It's like saying Xavi was a DM because he moreso than Busquets received the ball to begin the transition. 

My Fabregas/Matic example clearly wasn't getting through to him, think you've hit the nail on the head though here. Surely something will click now. 

Personally I don't think its black or white and there's alot more variables to it.

It depends on the philosphy of the coach and how they want to set up. If it's a 433 and we're all about high possession and build up then I fully expect Enzo to be at the base of the mid. If we're playing a high pressing 4231 then I think he needs a bit more security and legs next to him due to the nature of the formation. The traditional defensive midfielder these days can do alot more offensively and i mean that by pressing and not just sitting back and sweeping up the dirty work.

Nagelsmann used the double pivot of Goretzka and Kimmich at Bayern in a 4231, are any of those traditional defensive midfielders? It's also a case of how we line up when we don't have the ball and how we line up when we do have the ball.

If we don't have the ball our 4231 could be come a flat 4411 and someone like Cacedio is enough and we get more defensive duties from infront and out wide.

 

Edited June 23, 20233 yr by Sheva

I am very confused with this Enzo discussion. Even if you think Enzo is good defensively, why do you want him to do a lot of defending? 😅😅

 

 

I think @Gol15want to turn Enzo into another Jorginho which again his personal preference. 

Can you be decisive from deep? Absolutely, it is just a myth that it is impossible to get assist/goal from deep but it is just so much more difficult to do so from there. 

I personally prefer if Enzo can go up and impact the game in area where it really matter. Switch play and long ball are nice but assist and goal win you games. 

Edited June 27, 20233 yr by Bob stark

Midfield -situation for us is one of the most interesting things to discuss. Not least because it is totally revamped. No more Kovacic, Kante or Jorginho. That trio btw missed a ton of creativity. It missed Cesc basically. 

Our new midfield is run by Enzo. Will it be a duo between him and Caicedo? Will it be a trio with one 6 and two 8's? Are the 8's Mount, Gallagher, Casadei, Santos...okay maybe not Casadei or Santos yet. 

We are very light in there in any case. Ruben is leaving also. We have to utilize players like Chukwuemeka basically if we are not buying our new midfield this window. No more Zakaria either. Does Lewis Hall have a spot in midfield? How about Reece?

Pochettino starts officially in a couple of days. He really has a task in his hands here.

The best part of Enzo discussion is that everyone have different idea how to play him which is a good thing. Finally we stop living in mythical world where a wc technical midfielder can only do one thing. 

 

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I think @Gol15want to turn Enzo into another Jorginho which again his personal preference. 

Can you be decisive from deep? Absolutely, it is just a myth that it is impossible to get assist/goal from deep but it is just so much more difficult to do so from there. 

I personally prefer if Enzo can go up and impact the game in area where it really matter. Switch play and long ball are nice but assist and goal win you games. 

Playing deep seems the most natural positon for him though, he's not Kevin De Bruyne who can drive with the ball. He's more of a Toni Kroos who likes to pick up the ball and scan infront of him. He will naturally drop deep to pick it up and our defenders will look for him to do that, he's the guy who will look out for wingers and overlapping fullbacks.

That doesn't make him defensive if he's playing deep it just means he gets more time and space on the ball to do what he excels at.

 

 

Edited June 27, 20233 yr by Sheva

Which midfield role did Enzo play in his last season at River Plate, when he got 10 goals in 26 appearances ? Anyone know ?

13 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I think @Gol15want to turn Enzo into another Jorginho which again his personal preference. 

Can you be decisive from deep? Absolutely, it is just a myth that it is impossible to get assist/goal from deep but it is just so much more difficult to do so from there. 

I personally prefer if Enzo can go up and impact the game in area where it really matter. Switch play and long ball are nice but assist and goal win you games. 

Nothing to do with my personal preference, it's literally Enzo's personal preference;

On 23/06/2023 at 14:18, Gol15 said:

A DM can also be a deep lying playmaker at the same time, it doesn't need to be two players. Enzo literally came in to play at the base of the midfield as Jorginho left and this is what he himself naturally plays.

Debut match vs Fulham, in front of him Mount and Gallagher:

Similarly how he had in front of him in the World Cup Final, DePaul and MacAllister:

Insisting that Enzo should change his position, while he himself put himself to play exactly where he wants to play... Simply isn't logical. He is a DM player.

 

Has nothing to do with me LMAO he came to our team after playing at the base of the midfield at the World Cup final and automatically established himself at the base of the midfield in his debut.

13 hours ago, evissy said:

Midfield -situation for us is one of the most interesting things to discuss. Not least because it is totally revamped. No more Kovacic, Kante or Jorginho. That trio btw missed a ton of creativity. It missed Cesc basically. 

Our new midfield is run by Enzo. Will it be a duo between him and Caicedo? Will it be a trio with one 6 and two 8's? Are the 8's Mount, Gallagher, Casadei, Santos...okay maybe not Casadei or Santos yet. 

We are very light in there in any case. Ruben is leaving also. We have to utilize players like Chukwuemeka basically if we are not buying our new midfield this window. No more Zakaria either. Does Lewis Hall have a spot in midfield? How about Reece?

Pochettino starts officially in a couple of days. He really has a task in his hands here.

We need midfielders but I'm hoping Santos can get his chance due to this shortage... He can become a top box-to-box and since we just lost Kante, maybe Pochettino gives him a chance.

19 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Nothing to do with my personal preference, it's literally Enzo's personal preference;

Has nothing to do with me LMAO he came to our team after playing at the base of the midfield at the World Cup final and automatically established himself at the base of the midfield in his debut.

Fairly certain Enzo's personal preference also isn't to have the majority of defensive responsibility. Using 5 games from the World Cup (where he actually alternated from a holding midfielder to a more advanced role) and being mismanaged by Lampard/Potter shouldn't be seen as this being his personal preference, particularly when his own father has publicly said he looks forward to Pochettino using him in a more advanced role this season. 

 

3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Nothing to do with my personal preference, it's literally Enzo's personal preference;

Has nothing to do with me LMAO he came to our team after playing at the base of the midfield at the World Cup final and automatically established himself at the base of the midfield in his debut.

There were rumours that Enzo's father spoke to Pochettino and asked if Enzo could play further forward... Not saying this is a 100% true, but do you have any evidence that being DM is Enzo's favourite position?

So what’s Pochettino first order of business at cobham?

Build real BBQ area?

That was taken out when Hazard went!

Let's hope Pochettino establish his authority and set the standard as early as possible. One thing contributed to Potter's nightmare was he tried too hard to be likeable among the players and get on their good side. It will be a strange situation for Pochettino, so many young players to work with, yet the expectation from the boss and fans will not drop much.

11 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Nothing to do with my personal preference, it's literally Enzo's personal preference;

Has nothing to do with me LMAO he came to our team after playing at the base of the midfield at the World Cup final and automatically established himself at the base of the midfield in his debut.

This is interesting. It is the 1st time I heard somebody prefer to play as sitting midifelder rather than in free role. 

I am not talking just PL, I am talking about all level of football. 

https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/enzo-fernandez-chelsea-scout-report/

This is quite a good article that shows his versatility but he's very much a player that likes to drop deep and collect the ball. He's not a number 10 or a pure 6. He's like a 6/8 depending on the formation we use.

For me he's in the similar mold as someone like Toni Kroos, if we are playing a low defensive block then he will have more freedom to push higher and pick out those passes we saw against West Ham when Felix scored.

Edited June 28, 20233 yr by Sheva

He probably wants to have the same role albeit more freedom to venture forward in attacking sequences whilst an actual DM is working with him. 

 

Heard it said that Pochettino wants Moises in the door by July 3rd to be here for day 1 meet and greet before pre season.

May seem ambitious but for both Potter and Cucurella the deala move quickly and qe apparently have no intention of low balling Brighton and want a quick deal.

23 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Fairly certain Enzo's personal preference also isn't to have the majority of defensive responsibility. Using 5 games from the World Cup (where he actually alternated from a holding midfielder to a more advanced role) and being mismanaged by Lampard/Potter shouldn't be seen as this being his personal preference, particularly when his own father has publicly said he looks forward to Pochettino using him in a more advanced role this season. 

 

Mismanaged? If you honestly believe in that... That Enzo has been, mismanaged out of all things... Wow.