N'golo Kante - We are not worthy!

[driller97]

2 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I continue to think he's holding our team back and surrounded by people who think he's still our best player. 

Either he plays as a DM (and I imagine he plays that role poorly) or he needs to contribute in the final 3rd.

Kovacic has a role of sorts in his position, he can carry it out of danger and lay it off to a better player. Kante I don't understand. 

I dont understand why Kante keeps running forward into the box because he does f**k all when he gets the ball? He needs to stick to what hes good at and thats breaking up play and making tackles... Being an attacker is not what Kante is or should be.

I dont know why Sarri started playing him further forward, and I really dont know why Lampard is doing the same. At this point would rather just sell Kante and get a good fee for him.

[Sexyfootball]

Problem is, that Kante is a natural midfielder for a counter-attacking side that doesn't have the ball as much as the opponent, and there there is the need to win the ball back and cover space etc etc.

Apart from a handful of games, we aren't playing like that unfortunately, and for a possession-based team, Kante doesn't have a defined role. He's not natural enough as a DM shielding the defence (and to be honest that role minimises most of his better qualities). He's not a deep lying playmaker.  Sarri and Lampard have tried to shoe-horn him in further forward but he lacks attacking instincts and doesn't contribute enough either in creativity or goals.

Quite the dilemma ...

[SydneyChelsea]

9 hours ago, bisright1 said:

I continue to think he's holding our team back and surrounded by people who think he's still our best player. 

Either he plays as a DM (and I imagine he plays that role poorly) or he needs to contribute in the final 3rd.

Kovacic has a role of sorts in his position, he can carry it out of danger and lay it off to a better player. Kante I don't understand. 

What is your evidence that he is not contributing?

[bisright1]

52 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

What is your evidence that he is not contributing?

In the final third? 

I have eyes. 

[SydneyChelsea]

34 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

In the final third? 

I have eyes. 

So do many others who think he does his role perfectly well. I'm trying to understand  what exactly it is he's doing wrong.

[MANoWAR]

11 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

So do many others who think he does his role perfectly well. I'm trying to understand  what exactly it is he's doing wrong.

He's not doing anything wrong; he's just not suited to an attacking sort of system.

Taken this comment from Reddit:

But honestly, in either system, if a new DM comes in - what does Kanté give us that others don't? He's in the team for his defending but he's not a defensive midfielder. He can dribble and pass, but Kovacic does it better. You'd assume the new DM would be a defensive upgrade on Kanté in that lone DM role. Will we line up with two defensive-minded midfielders as an attacking team? There isn't a single top club that does this. Do we become a defensive team with all this ability in our attack and midfield? I wouldn't want that. Kanté is almost a defensive luxury if a new DM comes in.

This [article] is exactly what I'm talking about. Kanté needs a DM holding next to him, but playing him and another DM takes away a lot of quality on the ball from our midfield that Kovacic, Mount, Havertz, RLC (when in form) all give you. I've said it for almost two years now, Kanté is out of place in an attacking team. There isn't a single role for him in which others aren't better at at least one side of the game. A classic DM will be better defensively than him, a progressive box-to-box player like Kovacic, Mount or RLC does a lot more for your attack. And with the majority of possession in most of our games, we need that attacking quality a lot more than we need a second defensive midfielder.

Here's the article from The Athletic: 

https://theathletic.co.uk/2079386/2020/09/21/chelsea-frank-lampard-ngolo-kante-declan-rice/

Seems like the management is thinking similar... 

Edited September 21, 2020 by MANoWAR

[Sexyfootball]

7 minutes ago, MANoWAR said:

Here's the article from The Athletic: 

https://theathletic.co.uk/2079386/2020/09/21/chelsea-frank-lampard-ngolo-kante-declan-rice/

Pay wall ... 🙂

I agree with your post btw.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Sexyfootball

[MANoWAR]

4 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Pay wall ... 🙂

I agree with your post btw.

Sorry, here's the summary the OP provided: 

• A matter of time before Mendy is official.

• Rudiger was left out of the line up (no injury).

• Many feel that Chelsea are light at the back even with addition of Silva who turns 36 and is not at his peak.

• However, Lampard feels a DM is the missing piece of his jigsaw.

• Rice is the main target (as reported) and although initially the plan was for him to play as CB, he can play in his regular position in front of back 4 as well.

• Kante is no longer considered for ‘Makelele role’ but is not deemed surplus to requirements either

• Kante prefers to leave areas, go for the ball but the worry is there is no significant contribution from Kante towards the attack (no key passes, shots etc.).

• Lampard wants a midfielder who can sit behind and be a physical presence with a mindset to hold

• Jorginho was not good enough vs Liverpool and could not do much to break the press.

• Chelsea would likely offer Barkley for Rice to reduce his 80mn price.

• Also considering other options if Rice doesn’t move because West Ham are reluctant to sell.

• Don’t be surprised if we sign more players before Oct 5 deadline.

Edited September 21, 2020 by MANoWAR

[Gol15]

15 minutes ago, MANoWAR said:

Sorry, here's the summary the OP provided: 

• A matter of time before Mendy is official.

• Rudiger was left out of the line up (no injury).

• Many feel that Chelsea are light at the back even with addition of Silva who turns 36 and is not at his peak.

• However, Lampard feels a DM is the missing piece of his jigsaw.

• Rice is the main target (as reported) and although initially the plan was for him to play as CB, he can play in his regular position in front of back 4 as well.

• Kante is no longer considered for ‘Makelele role’ but is not deemed surplus to requirements either

• Kante prefers to leave areas, go for the ball but the worry is there is no significant contribution from Kante towards the attack (no key passes, shots etc.).

• Lampard wants a midfielder who can sit behind and be a physical presence with a mindset to hold

• Jorginho was not good enough vs Liverpool and could not do much to break the press.

• Chelsea would likely offer Barkley for Rice to reduce his 80mn price.

• Also considering other options if Rice doesn’t move because West Ham are reluctant to sell.

• Don’t be surprised if we sign more players before Oct 5 deadline.

Jorginho did well defensively and he did break the press of Liverpool several times during the first half. He didn't control the possession nor did he make many passes in the final third, that's a completely different issue.

Kante always does well in big games, even last season coming off injuries he did well in big games, maybe only against Arsenal he was below his average standards but he always does well. This game however he missed to make a couple of passes forward and also slowed down our attack when he was given the ball in the Liverpool box. We are improvising still because the team is very new.

[Guest Sindre]

On 21/09/2020 at 10:37, MANoWAR said:

• Kante prefers to leave areas, go for the ball but the worry is there is no significant contribution from Kante towards the attack (no key passes, shots etc.).

There was a great example of this yesterday. Promising looking counter with Havertz running down the left and plays a good pass to Mount in the middle who passes it on to Kante who's inside Liverpool's box slightly to the right. Should have been a goalscoring chance that but if my memory serves me right I actually think Kante ended up passing the ball back to Reece James in midfield.

[ducavis]

15 minutes ago, Sindre said:

There was a great example of this yesterday. Promising looking counter with Havertz running down the left and plays a good pass to Mount in the middle who passes it on to Kante who's inside Liverpool's box slightly to the right. Should have been a goalscoring chance that but if my memory serves me right I actually think Kante ended up passing the ball back to Reece James in midfield.

Problem is where were Kovacic & Jorginho our 2 press resistant players? I don’t have a problem with the ball going back to Reece James, the ball shouldn’t have gone all the way back to Kepa. Happened so many times yesterday, against Brighton and last season also. 
It is easy to blame Kante, Jorginho for me isn’t even good enough for the role. Thiago came on (agreed against 10 men) yesterday and was creating angles for passes, controlling the game and switches passes to different sides. Sorry but you hardly ever see this with Jorginho. Those passes that start from Kepa, to a FB/CB, switched side to side, & then booted upfield is why you play Jorginho. He should be demanding those balls and splitting our CBs. 

[Gol15]

1 minute ago, ducavis said:

Problem is where were Kovacic & Jorginho our 2 press resistant players? I don’t have a problem with the ball going back to Reece James, the ball shouldn’t have gone all the way back to Kepa. Happened so many times yesterday, against Brighton and last season also. 
It is easy to blame Kante, Jorginho for me isn’t even good enough for the role. Thiago came on (agreed against 10 men) yesterday and was creating angles for passes, controlling the game and switches passes to different sides. Sorry but you hardly ever see this with Jorginho. Those passes that start from Kepa, to a FB/CB, switched side to side, & then booted upfield is why you play Jorginho. He should be demanding those balls and splitting our CBs. 

Yesterday he didn't pass much at all during the first half but nobody did, none of our midfielders passed the ball much at all, Liverpool was the better team but we were bound to adapt to them in the second half if only we didn't have a player getting sent off. 

Last game he pressed, intercepted a ball and that resulted in the penalty that he scored, later on he passed to James that scored as well.
That's 2 goals out of 3 that he somehow created, nobody talked about it here on the forum. Even when he does well it's all quiet, lose one game and he's obviously not good enough.

He has made the most passes into the final third last season but from what I see on this forum 95% of the people don't think that Jorginho is a good player...
But then why do you expect him to control the midfield against Liverpool, when we don't have natural wingers yet and when he according to the majority isn't a good player? Why do you expect him to do better than our best player Kovacic? If there is no expectations for Jorginho why isn't then Kovacic (POTY) not talked about? He was anonymous just as Jorginho was but he's supposed to be our best player by a huge margin...

[ducavis]

8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Yesterday he didn't pass much at all during the first half but nobody did, none of our midfielders passed the ball much at all, Liverpool was the better team but we were bound to adapt to them in the second half if only we didn't have a player getting sent off. 

Last game he pressed, intercepted a ball and that resulted in the penalty that he scored, later on he passed to James that scored as well.
That's 2 goals out of 3 that he somehow created, nobody talked about it here on the forum. Even when he does well it's all quiet, lose one game and he's obviously not good enough.

He has made the most passes into the final third last season but from what I see on this forum 95% of the people don't think that Jorginho is a good player...
But then why do you expect him to control the midfield against Liverpool, when we don't have natural wingers yet and when he according to the majority isn't a good player? Why do you expect him to do better than our best player Kovacic? If there is no expectations for Jorginho why isn't then Kovacic (POTY) not talked about? He was anonymous just as Jorginho was but he's supposed to be our best player by a huge margin...

I did mention Kovacic also. The balls going back to the GK could be instructions from Lamps but it’s infuriating when you have 2 press resistant players in Kovacic & Jorginho. I also never questioned his work rate, what I stand by is he should always provide an outlet for Kepa instead of those passes to the CB/FB. We also need him to instinctively look up & pick up Werner’s runs. I know he tried one yesterday and marginally misplaced it. Fabregas did all this brilliantly when playing the same role.

[bisright1]

I'd be perfectly happy to see a line up that had Jorginho + Kante with Mount/Havertz/Barkley further forward. That seems to make sense even if the individual personnel may or may not be right. 

But yesterday Kante was our attacking midfielder in that midfield 3. That isn't ever going to work. 

2 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

So do many others who think he does his role perfectly well. I'm trying to understand  what exactly it is he's doing wrong.

Others have answered more elegantly than I have. He can't play a through ball and he can't shoot. Stats are quite clear on this but anyone with eyes will agree. How many goals? How many chances created? How many assists? Kante offers nothing in the final third. 

[MayosNoun!]

My mate said it is a nightmare to watch his team (Liverpool) playing against Kante because he seems to break up every attack. It must be infuriating for players to play against him. I love the guy and he brings so much to the team defensively. 

[dkw]

3 hours ago, MayosNoun! said:

My mate said it is a nightmare to watch his team (Liverpool) playing against Kante because he seems to break up every attack. It must be infuriating for players to play against him. I love the guy and he brings so much to the team defensively. 

My liverpool supporting mate thought we had played 3 of him against them last season, reckons we cloned him and sneaked the other 2 on just after kick off.

In one game he tackled a Liverpool player, passed it to a Chelsea player who miscontrolled it then kante ran past him and got it back of another Liverpool player 😅

[Scott Harris]

Kante has a knack for playing well against Liverpool. I still think the Super Cup game he played in was the best game of his career. He didn't deserve to be on the losing side that day.

[jack_super_class]

I dont get why Frank has pulled the plug on Kante playing as a defensive midfielder, makes more sense playing him there than starting Jorginho.

[Bonzodog29]

On 21/09/2020 at 09:20, SydneyChelsea said:

So do many others who think he does his role perfectly well. I'm trying to understand  what exactly it is he's doing wrong.

Perfect example would be the Liverpool game where he was played through early on, a more natural final 3rd midfielder (Lamps for example) would have hit the shot, it may go wide be saved deflected ect but Kantes first thought was to put his foot on the ball and pass it back to a more attacking player 

[reparto corse]

As someone said in the match-thread. Kante hinders us offensively and doesn't do a proper DM's job either when we are defending. I love Kante but it just feels like since he got here he is getting worse and worse. He was great in his first seasons and since then it just went downhill constantly. Maybe it's because of injuries, maybe because of the tactical set-up, but I really think it is time to see how we would do with Jorginho and Kovacic in the middle and Kante on the bench.

[jack_super_class]

I think he looks fine when you play him as a DM infront of the back four. He stops so many counter attacks.

[bisright1]

29 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

I think he looks fine when you play him as a DM infront of the back four. He stops so many counter attacks.

Yeah and then he wanders out of position and leaves us exposed to a counter attack. He needs to play alongside another DM who holds their position whilst he goes chasing. 

Him and Kovacic are not good at this as both want to get forward. 

[Sexyfootball]

10 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

I think he looks fine when you play him as a DM in front of the back four. He stops so many counter attacks.

And yet today he is in the double pivot in front of the defence, and we ship three goals in no time to West bloody Brom !

Neither him nor Kovacic were effective today ...

[jack_super_class]

13 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

And yet today he is in the double pivot in front of the defence, and we ship three goals in no time to West bloody Brom !

Neither him nor Kovacic were effective today ...

We didnt concede because of Kante position though.

[jack_super_class]

18 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

Yeah and then he wanders out of position and leaves us exposed to a counter attack. He needs to play alongside another DM who holds their position whilst he goes chasing. 

Him and Kovacic are not good at this as both want to get forward. 

I disagree, i think if you told him not too wander i think he can adapt to it. Its the best position for him to get into this team.