23 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

So where exactly is he failing? For 10+ minutes he did his job.

I think he did a good job of getting on the ball for 10 minutes, which is his strength.

That said we gave up 2 or 3 very good chances to lose the points in those 10 minutes, which I think demonstrates that controlling the ball isn't the be all and end all of closing out games. 

Gilmour I think has been probably back at the level you'd expect for a kid of 19 after the restart, neither he nor Jorginho are really a direct Kante replacement. 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

When Zaha got to the ball and took a free shot and scored, Billy was nowhere near where he should be, it was Zaha and our back-line. The tactics clearly left tons of space for Palace but if we ignore that bit we could say that it was obviously Gilmour that had no control over his own area, I mean look he wasn't even there right?

I wonder if you would say the same thing and have the same attitude if that was Gilmour coming on for Jorginho in min 80' and making us have 80% possession out of the blue, would you be saying this exact comment towards Gilmour, mr.Bridges?

I guess Jorginho should have marked Benteke and do the job of Christensen/Zouma, he should have also cleared that far post cross that Azpilicueta doesn't know how to deal with as well since it's obviously the first time someone puts in a cross there against us...I guess he will just never be good enough for ChelseaFans.

Yes I would....why?  because to qoute another CFC fan "We played Crystal Palace but if you caught just the last 5 minutes you'd have thought you were watching us play Barca in 2012...and Im not talking about the color of their kits".  So when people talk about "control" I genuinely don't know if they are refering to us or Crystal Palace....because at no point in the game did CP have more control than in those final 5 minutes.  It's mind boggling to just ignore that.

I did clearly state I don't lay this at Jorginho's feet the way people try to lay credit for this "control" at his feet,,,,,,but since your just ignored that lets focus on your claim. Would Jorginho have done better against Zaha?  Well the way a player just waltzes past him with the ball at 93:45 suggests no, he wouldn't have (btw, William blocks the eventual shot CP has in our box within seconds as a result of that)....but we don't need an isolated example of players getting past Jorginho while he's played for Chelsea, do we?  I could swear this thread was just littered with examples from the past 2 seasons.....no?  And we're comparing that to a 19 year, and expecting the 19 year old to do better than Jorginho when he first arrived?  Seriously? That's my point.  

But on the topic of Gilmour and Zaha......not going to give Gilmour credit for stopping Zaha in our box whilst Zaha skipped past Pulisic?  57th minute since you seem to have missed it.

Since you like statistics...Gilmour, who clearly did not control the game at all or influence passing in anyway like Jorginho.... well that lucky Gilmour somehow managed to complete the most passes of any player in the match in two of his first PL starts..  You'd have to go back to 2007 to see that again.....now how hard would you be stroking that if it was Jorginho?

More specifically possession stats?  We had 69% possession at halftime, and I could swear that an commentator mentioned having up to 80% control for the second half sometime in the 60's of minutes.....I'll wait for you to give some plaudits, and I'll see if I can dig up specificly for Gilmour.....where'd you get your 80% stat for Jorginho? Because based on the last 5 minutes for him to have 80% possession then we must have held onto the ball for the entirety of his first minutes on the pitch ( I recall regaining some control immediately, but not that dominate for 10 minutes).....

Mind you, as Chelsea fans surely we can appreciate the majority of possession means nothing if your opposition gets the majority of the chances during that time, as we saw at the end of the game..no?

You can have your poor Jorginho routine, but I don't get it.  I wasn't blaming Jorginho for of that, though you seem to expect it of Gilmour but not Jorginho for some reason. I was simply stating what every objective observer noticed.....that for a full third of Jorginho's appearance CP looked literally like Barcelona, and I don't get how that jives with the claims he calmed it all down and brought the 3 points home in steady waters we'd not seen prior to his arrival....it's frankly hilarious.

And the funny thing is....this is the only place I see hailing the magical control Jorginho himself brought.....every article/blog/etc ive read/heard talks about how we clung on, and had a very nervy end to the game..... control lol.

 

I'm not going after Jorginho here, Im going after this mythical perception of how he drastically altered the game and ignoring the fact CP were at their most dominant while Jorginho was on.....not blaming him for that, just saying he's getting all the credit for the control of the game when he came on....well...some "control".

Edited July 8, 20206 yr by Barry Bridges

38 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

So where exactly is he failing? For 10+ minutes he did his job.

Where did Gilmour fail?

1 hour ago, Barry Bridges said:

Yes I would....why?  because to qoute another CFC fan "We played Crystal Palace but if you caught just the last 5 minutes you'd have thought you were watching us play Barca in 2012...and Im not talking about the color of their kits".  So when people talk about "control" I genuinely don't know if they are refering to us or Crystal Palace....because at no point in the game did CP have more control than in those final 5 minutes.  It's mind boggling to just ignore that.

I did clearly state I don't lay this at Jorginho's feet the way people try to lay credit for this "control" at his feet,,,,,,but since your just ignored that lets focus on your claim. Would Jorginho have done better against Zaha?  Well the way a player just waltzes past him with the ball at 93:45 suggests no, he wouldn't have (btw, William blocks the eventual shot CP has in our box within seconds as a result of that)....but we don't need an isolated example of players getting past Jorginho while he's played for Chelsea, do we?  I could swear this thread was just littered with examples from the past 2 seasons.....no?  And we're comparing that to a 19 year, and expecting the 19 year old to do better than Jorginho when he first arrived?  Seriously? That's my point.  

 

Before the big break Jorginho had the most interceptions and tackles out of all our midfielders and he's still better at most stats you can find when you compare him to our most known DM, Kante so it's really a myth that he isn't capable of stopping a player.

So would Jorginho have done better against Zaha than who? Gilmour? Yes. Now I must remind you that Willian was tracking back faster than any other player that game, look at the first goal Willian is basically in our own box by the time the ball is in the net while Gilmour is 10 sec late to be outside of the box, Willian covered a lot of ground and was helping out James as well, but I didn't see any player being that good against Zaha that game, did you? What player stopped him from crossing or going forward with the ball?

You were the one that basically ignored that Gilmour was gone after 30 minutes of the game when you said that the only reason why that first goal was scored was due to a wonder goal from 30 yards, this is why I challenged that take because clearly he didn't have much control as the game got going.

1 hour ago, Barry Bridges said:

But on the topic of Gilmour and Zaha......not going to give Gilmour credit for stopping Zaha in our box whilst Zaha skipped past Pulisic?  57th minute since you seem to have missed it.

Since you like statistics...Gilmour, who clearly did not control the game at all or influence passing in anyway like Jorginho.... well that lucky Gilmour somehow managed to complete the most passes of any player in the match in two of his first PL starts..  You'd have to go back to 2007 to see that again.....now how hard would you be stroking that if it was Jorginho?

More specifically possession stats?  We had 69% possession at halftime, and I could swear that an commentator mentioned having up to 80% control for the second half sometime in the 60's of minutes.....I'll wait for you to give some plaudits, and I'll see if I can dig up specificly for Gilmour.....where'd you get your 80% stat for Jorginho? Because based on the last 5 minutes for him to have 80% possession then we must have held onto the ball for the entirety of his first minutes on the pitch ( I recall regaining some control immediately, but not that dominate for 10 minutes).....

How hard I would be stroking if that was Jorginho? That's very nice of you but fact is he was doing those kind of things in his first PL season half of the time, this season he is still among the top when it comes to passing into the final third and he has made one of the highest amounts of through balls in our squad as well, make no mistake I'm really happy for Gilmour but what Gilmour did in the first 30 minutes of the game was somewhat like a regular sunday for Jorginho last season and for a certain period of this season as well, that isn't something that Jorginho had never done.
But you see the interesting thing here could be that people like you were mocking Jorginho for "passing side-ways", while now Gilmour is obviously already a better player, of course I'm only speculating but if that's not you that I'm describing, I'm sure I'm describing someone else.

Palace had full control the whole second half, we scored from a counter attack, Palace scored right away after that and shortly after Jorginho came on. You would think that having first a 2:0 lead would be enough but that turned out to be a 3:2 by minute 70'. We had the goals but never really the control of the game, Palace was behind the whole game but looked very comfortable the way the game was going, if you go to the match thread you could feel it as well just by looking at the comments throughout the game. 

Before Gilmour was subbed off a stat appeared that showed that we had 35% possession and around 5 minutes after Jorginho entered the game that stat was showing 80% possession, I have no reason to lie about that, ask around or go to social media and look it up, probably someone pointed it out. I most certainly have no business inventing stats, this is a rough description of what I saw.

1 hour ago, Barry Bridges said:

Mind you, as Chelsea fans surely we can appreciate the majority of possession means nothing if your opposition gets the majority of the chances during that time, as we saw at the end of the game..no?

You can have your poor Jorginho routine, but I don't get it.  I wasn't blaming Jorginho for of that, though you seem to expect it of Gilmour but not Jorginho for some reason. I was simply stating what every objective observer noticed.....that for a full third of Jorginho's appearance CP looked literally like Barcelona, and I don't get how that jives with the claims he calmed it all down and brought the 3 points home in steady waters we'd not seen prior to his arrival....it's frankly hilarious.

And the funny thing is....this is the only place I see hailing the magical control Jorginho himself brought.....every article/blog/etc ive read/heard talks about how we clung on, and had a very nervy end to the game..... control lol.

 

I'm not going after Jorginho here, Im going after this mythical perception of how he drastically altered the game and ignoring the fact CP were at their most dominant while Jorginho was on.....not blaming him for that, just saying he's getting all the credit for the control of the game when he came on....well...some "control".

The very nature of the game can end up being this exact scenario where a team that is chasing and looking for a goal might be dominating the final minutes of the game, that alone doesn't show that the impact of Jorginho wasn't noticed or wasn't even significant, in around 15 minutes he managed to pass the ball 25 times and win 2/2 duels, make 2 tackles, 4 recoveries and 1 interception. That still doesn't mean that he played better than Gilmour but in that short time period he clearly did his job after not playing for around 4 months at all.

If you go back some pages you will find a post where I predicted that if Kante gets injured, Gilmour will walk into the starting lineup and that's exactly what has happened, so I have been very aware of the fact that Gilmour is ahead of Jorginho but I don't see Jorginho being at fault, or having any big faults when he plays, he has been scrutinized so much over the past year that I simply jumped on the opportunity to once again point out that he simply isn't a bad player, obviously to no avail as he is basically blamed for our defense not being able to do much when we don't have the ball in our possession.

Edited July 8, 20206 yr by Gol15

1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

I think he did a good job of getting on the ball for 10 minutes, which is his strength.

That said we gave up 2 or 3 very good chances to lose the points in those 10 minutes, which I think demonstrates that controlling the ball isn't the be all and end all of closing out games. 

Gilmour I think has been probably back at the level you'd expect for a kid of 19 after the restart, neither he nor Jorginho are really a direct Kante replacement. 

Well I agree but only till the last sentence there...As time passes by it's clear to me that users like Argo and/or Slojo were right when they pointed out that we simply don't look that convincing in the new tactic that Lampard has been deploying since the restart of the games. Sadly I was at the wrong fighting them so now I can't do much there, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Gilmour as the first choice next season. I don't think Kante would have done better than Gilmour this last game, I think that we looked most stable in 4-2-3-1.

As soon as the game opens up, thats when he looks so vulnerable.

What he was doing for that Mousset chance I have no idea. Allowed the ball to bounce past him then chased back after it giving the Sheff utd player the chance to barge him out the way and start the counter.

Looked sluggish rusty, probably due to lack of gametime

Edited July 11, 20206 yr by the special one

Well he did his job, nobody can make Christensen a good player, nobody.

I'll hold my hands up and admit he was really poor today, but I don't think he can be blamed for everything, however, defensively we really saw the worst of him. 

But I'll be honest, I turned it off after it was 3-0. 

Just now, Slojo said:

I'll hold my hands up and admit he was really poor today, but I don't think he can be blamed for everything, however, defensively we really saw the worst of him. 

But I'll be honest, I turned it off after it was 3-0. 

It was the sort of game he has always looks poor in. Under pressure he buckles. Given time and space he looks quality. Even if we keep him and he is playing well I'd never be inclined to play him against a team like Sheff Utd.

Unfortunately we didn't have many options today.

But he was no worse than anyone  else today.

 

27 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Well he did his job, nobody can make Christensen a good player, nobody.

How did Jorginho do his job? He was just as rubbish as every other CFC player out there today. Had a chance to come in today and prove what a player he is and what he can give us. But he gave us nothing.

Just now, Nibs said:

How did Jorginho do his job? He was just as rubbish as every other CFC player out there today. Had a chance to come in today and prove what a player he is and what he can give us. But he gave us nothing.

You can't tell me that it's down to him or Willian or ANYONE ELSE, when a normal cross that can be done by any school boy comes in and Christensen doesn't know what to do. This game you know it has different people doing different roles and sometimes, just sometimes a player might do everything that he was supposed to do and still lose because of someone else.

Jorghy had 99/108 passes, 92%. 2 tackles made out of 5, Zouma has 1/2 and James had 3/4. What the hell are you talking about?!

1 minute ago, Nibs said:

How did Jorginho do his job? He was just as rubbish as every other CFC player out there today. Had a chance to come in today and prove what a player he is and what he can give us. But he gave us nothing.

He was unquestionably poor but when Tammy stands around looking clueless and none of our wide forwards are making runs behind the opp's defence to stretch the play he has my sympathy.

Mentally i think he has checked out of Chelsea. 

Just now, brownindian said:

Mentally i think he has checked out of Chelsea. 

By this game as a judge of that, so did Mount and Tammy and someone like Christensen never wanted to do this as a profession.

7 minutes ago, Nibs said:

How did Jorginho do his job? He was just as rubbish as every other CFC player out there today. Had a chance to come in today and prove what a player he is and what he can give us. But he gave us nothing.

The standout moment today was Mc Goldrick skipping past him like he just wasn't there and him having the recovery of the Torrey Canyon. Ship him out immediately.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

By this game as a judge of that, so did Mount and Tammy and someone like Christensen never wanted to do this as a profession.

Christensen has been poor for a while now. 

26 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

You can't tell me that it's down to him or Willian or ANYONE ELSE, when a normal cross that can be done by any school boy comes in and Christensen doesn't know what to do. This game you know it has different people doing different roles and sometimes, just sometimes a player might do everything that he was supposed to do and still lose because of someone else.

Jorghy had 99/108 passes, 92%. 2 tackles made out of 5, Zouma has 1/2 and James had 3/4. What the hell are you talking about?!

Oh PLEASE! Don't give us pointless stats like that when we all saw with our own eyes what happened. He slowed things down to walking pace - that is what suits Jorginho. He passed the ball to death without making any killer passes. Any fool can do that. And did you see the third Sheff Utd goal where Jorginho got brushed aside like a little boy?

 

3 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Oh PLEASE! Don't give us pointless stats like that when we all saw with our own eyes what happened. He slowed things down to walking pace - that is what suits Jorginho. He passed the ball to death without making any killer passes. Any fool can do that. And did you see the third Sheff Utd goal where Jorginho got brushed aside like a little boy?

 

Pointless to have over 70% possession when there is nobody that can play. Wow once a player passed him, that totally never happened to anyone else this season not even to Kant...oh wait!

20 minutes ago, brownindian said:

Mentally i think he has checked out of Chelsea. 

Hopefully Thiago Alcantara has mentally checked into Chelsea. Would be a welcome addition to what is looking a stagnant midfield.

38 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Pointless to have overDe 70% possession when there is nobody that can play. Wow once a player passed him, that totally never happened to anyone else this season not even to Kant...oh wait!

Unfortunately it happens to Jorginho all too often and all to easily.

I admit, he wasn't as bad as our defenders or Tammy, but he wasn't far behind them. 

When we had Fabregas, we used to get so many more killer passes - passes that troubled the opposition and because of that you accepted how much a liability Cesc could be defensively. Jorginho seems to struggle just as much when players go past him with ease.

As I said a few days ago, defensive liability. Not good enough

48 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Unfortunately it happens to Jorginho all too often and all to easily.

I admit, he wasn't as bad as our defenders or Tammy, but he wasn't far behind them. 

When we had Fabregas, we used to get so many more killer passes - passes that troubled the opposition and because of that you accepted how much a liability Cesc could be defensively. Jorginho seems to struggle just as much when players go past him with ease.

Fabregas had better players around him. As soon as Pulisic has 1 average game nobody else can do anything in the final third. 

The opposition that we played recently didn't need to make any killer passes, just a normal cross or a ball inside the box would do.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Pointless to have over 70% possession when there is nobody that can play. Wow once a player passed him, that totally never happened to anyone else this season not even to Kant...oh wait!

he should have definitely fouled the player and taken one for the team.. every professional player knows that.. but he lets him get by...and then does not track back.. that was criminal .. but more than him what was Rudiger thinking... !

On his passing i think its more game sharpness his mind is not seeing opportunities quickly enough (not that there are many with a static forward line)... but i did count this one time when he took 8 touches before making a 20 yard sideways pass..